Please Help With Gsd Aggression.

[lovemesideways]

I wouldn't exactly be crying myself to sleep at night if they don't come back

That is very sad to hear especially from someone wanting to become a trainer. Its worth having an open mind and learning from everyone you can even if you dont agree with everything they say.

Do I want to be anywhere near someone who suggests choking a dog they have never met, to an owner they know nothing about? A dog that is walked on a halti by a small owner with a bad back...

Yeah I think I'll pass..

[SpecTraining]

The only thing that two trainers will agree on is that the third trainer is doing it all wrong - same thing is happening here

Not everyone has the funds to see a behaviourist at the drop of a hat so in the meantime people who have the courage to use this forum would like some constructive information based on OP's experience with aggressive dogs.

Funny that poodlefan would gladly string up a GSD that attacked her dogs but is totally against a GSD owner doing it - see, I am even lowering my standards to match the theme

Funny that you completely ignore the part where I mentioned a guy hanging his own dog on a lead and it taking a piece out of him. Guess it wouldn't be as easy to be snarky if you actually replied to everything huh ? Woops!

The other theme I read in this thread is that GSDs are different to other breeds, that dominance and sharpness are desirable characteristics in a good GSD, and therefore only experienced GSD trainers can handle what the breed 'experts' on here see as typical GSD adolescent aggression. The message is that aggression is so common and so stereotypcial in GSDs that ways to manage it can be reliably prescribed over the internet, again sight unseen, and they need to be very forceful methods indeed.

Great post. People can't have it both ways - a lot of GSD fanciers would be suprised and upset that aggression was considered "normal" and "typical" of their breed? Next time someone posts "Is a GSD right for me?" or similar they should get directed to this thread?

Reading the breed standard - and not being a show/breeder type person I'm not an expert on these things - aggression of any kind would be a fault, certainly not normal? Even for a working dog, "aggression" needs to be controlled and not "I'm gunno kill the next fluffy that walks past"?

The OP is seeing a behaviourist, that is great. Behaviourists aren't luxuries when dealing with aggression. The only sound advice while waiting to see one is to muzzle the dog or keep them on your own property 24/7. Anything else can end in tears (usually for the smaller dog).

Poodlefan - some people seem to be very hung up on the fact that you own - gasp - poodles. They can't seem to look beyond that and listen to your advice. Maybe a change in name is required? GSDLover, RottieLady or something similar? Maybe then they can look past their prejudices and read the advice for what it is .

Just like I have labradors, so obviously I can't handle a "real dog" ;D!

I second the name change Poodlefan, you need something more hardcore obviously. Like "FullySIckDOgFigHTERss!!"

SpecTraining:

Rocky you bought for a pet and a fine pet he should make, but Rocky is also a working breed and if you hadn't have bought Rocky, he could quite easily have been purchased by the police to live a working dog life

And there's a very good chance he'd not have made the grade. I live next door to the head of a police dog team and I know how many dogs they look at before they find one that will suit.

Lots of GSD's lack the nerve and drive and soundness to work for a living. This is not news to anyone I thought.

I made that comment to highlight that the dog is a working breed and "may" have working traits which many do. Often people believe because a working breed is purchased for a pet, that working traits will be non existant which is not true and often leads IMHO to incorrect training techniques. I have seen many pet trainers refuse to leash correct a GSD because they had a Golden Retriever shut down from a correction using the basis that the GSD being a pet shouldn't need a leash correction, or because it is a pet, it will shut down as a result.

I Have seen GSDs shut down as result of a correction. Friend of mine took his boy Lobo into a GSD training class. Lobo was so anti check chain that he would flat out shut down. Refuse to move, cower, ect. He started from the beginning on a normal flat collar now has a great dog.

Rocky needs a working dog mechanic for the best opportunity to sort him out and working dog mechanics for the purpose of this post, don't use halti's and harnessess and refuse physical corrections. The dog mechanics who do use these tools will get you back on the road to limp home, but they won't fix your dog to the original performance that the breed is capable of.

Excuse me, are you saying that some of the trainers on this thread are incapable of working with GSDs on the basis of tools they may or may not use depending on the individual dog and/or client?

OK, I sometimes use harnesses. Are you saying that I am incompetent with GSDs because of this and that I misrepresent myself as a trainer? Have you got any evidence to prove this?

I can't comment on others capablilities here Aidan having never seen their work and would be wrong of me to do so. You are welcome to use a harness if you like them or any other tools and methods you wish to use. The people that do train GSD's on halti's, harnessess and refuse to physically correct them as I mentioned, I am yet to see these training methods and tools produce a dog that I consider has good, relaible behaviour. But what you consider good and what I may expect could be a competely different thing we are focusing on.

I have seen some excellent harness work whilst it is on the dog. That's no good for me needing a dog to work off leash for example.

Garry

Mentioned previously, we've always had GSDs until our current dogs. Never used any sort of check chain, just regular flat collar and lead. Great dogs, perfect heel, perfect recall, would stay happily on their mats all day. Could be eating a raw meaty bone and any child/person/dog/animal in the world could come up and take it off them. Our cat would go and pin them down for an ear cleaning.

GSDs we owned before that, recall was so good they could be in full flight after a rabbit, one word and they would spin and return. Dad taught them to leap the 6 metre fence out back (this is 15 or so years ago mind you) and one day they leaped over it, to go and greet our neighbour (little old lady) coming home with her shopping. She gave them both a pat, and sent them home over the fence.

Never had any problems with aggression, never had issues with small dogs. We used to have my sister in laws Pug come over and play with our guys, they loved it.

I think saying that someone can't train a GSD without physical correction shows your ignorance. Same as believing that because the GSD are used as working dogs means that EVERY GSD could be a working dog is ridiculous.

Geez, if only I could find GSD's like yours today, unfortunately GSD's of the level of perfection you have described are rather thin on the ground now. I assume they were also protection trained to complete the total package???

[lovemesideways]

Geez, if only I could find GSD's like yours today, unfortunately GSD's of the level of perfection you have described are rather thin on the ground now. I assume they were also protection trained to complete the total package???

No they where not, because not all GSDs are made for that kind of thing

[SpecTraining]

I can't comment on others capablilities here Aidan having never seen their work and would be wrong of me to do so.

Yet that is exactly what you did do.

No Aidan, I didn't name you or anyone else as inferior trainers and don't intend to. I said that trainers who use halti's and harnessess and refuse to perform a physical correction training working breeds make a difference to the dog's behavior and some not too bad, but the best I have seen, (bearing in mind, I haven't seen them all as you haven't seen all of them trained in opposing methods), haven't resulted in a behaviour I would call reliable. Everyone as I mentioned before will have a different definition of reliability. What you may define as wonderful behaviour for me may be mediocre and vice versa. When ultimate reliability is required in a working dog, very few if any are trained on halti's, harnessess without ever experiencing a physical correction.

[siks3]

But oh well. I just give my opinion and if it gets found it gets found. At least I can say I have dealt with and successfully trained aggressive dogs when I give my opinion.

And here is the key. You have successfully trained aggressive dogs. There are some pretty strong opinions on here from people who have had nothing to do with aggression let alone successfully worked with them.

I agree the measures needed to correct most aggression problems are out of reach for the average pet owner it takes a lot of experience and hands on learning to do this.

If you don't have the confidence or knowledge i wouldn't even attempt it.

[SpecTraining]

Geez, if only I could find GSD's like yours today, unfortunately GSD's of the level of perfection you have described are rather thin on the ground now. I assume they were also protection trained to complete the total package???

No they where not, because not all GSDs are made for that kind of thing

I agree, they don't all turn out with the required traits for protection work, but they are supposed to if the dog complies with the breed standards in one way or another.

[Aidan3]

I can't comment on others capablilities here Aidan having never seen their work and would be wrong of me to do so.

Yet that is exactly what you did do.

No Aidan, I didn't name you or anyone else as inferior trainers and don't intend to. I said that trainers who use halti's and harnessess and refuse to perform a physical correction training working breeds make a difference to the dog's behavior and some not too bad, but the best I have seen, (bearing in mind, I haven't seen them all as you haven't seen all of them trained in opposing methods), haven't resulted in a behaviour I would call reliable. Everyone as I mentioned before will have a different definition of reliability. What you may define as wonderful behaviour for me may be mediocre and vice versa. When ultimate reliability is required in a working dog, very few if any are trained on halti's, harnessess without ever experiencing a physical correction.

Regardless of what you had said earlier, I agree with the above. Very reliable behaviour can be obtained without corrections but rarely is for pragmatic reasons.

Also, I believe there is a difference between how the dog performs in working situations vs how the dog responds to other dogs, people etc. I do not spend a great deal of time with clients building anything more than acceptable leash manners, solid recalls, and long downs (often with a tether). Apart from the recall, I require none of these to approach a competitive standard. However, the focus is on having the dog comfortable around other dogs/people rather than simply being under control (not that being under control is anything to be scoffed at). For various reasons I prefer this approach, for a start there are no surprises, for another these are not sporting dogs and their owners would like them to be able to relax and maybe even walk off-leash with other dogs (which we do achieve in many cases even with quite seriously aggressive dogs who have previously caused damage).

I had one client, now a good friend, whose dog was terrified of children and had a bite history with adult men, drugged and muzzled in public. She now has two children of her own (plus nieces and nephews) and her dog is able to co-exist with them without any concerns. Whilst I'm sure that having reliable behaviour in all circumstances would help this situation, I don't consider it to be enough. There is no confidence to be gained from feigned civility. I like to be sure that the dog is actually comfortable, not just acting out of avoidance. Dogs can learn to be comfortable through avoidance, but there is no basis for objective measurement there that I know of (and I do know rather a lot about objective measurement of affective states).

I hope that makes sense and illustrates some of the differences in our approaches. Please note that I have not been critical of your approach, only some of the assertions made about it (a handler cannot be bitten while hanging a dog, all young GSDs need it if they demonstrate inappropriate aggressive behaviour etc)

[SpecTraining]

This also might have worked, without suggesting that the dog necessarily has the drives/nerves/stability/ideal temp for police work

GSD being a working breed have been bred to do many tasks for people, and as such may have some drives and instincts that if not properly channeled can cause problems, such as prey drive and protective instincts. They are an active and intelligent breed, and need an outlet for mental and physical activities. As such, it would be beneficial to seek help from someone who has experience with aggression within working breeds such as GSDs as they will have a greater understanding of the breed's characteristics.

I missed your post Kavik, perfectly written and says everything I needed to explain, thankyou

[lovemesideways]

Geez, if only I could find GSD's like yours today, unfortunately GSD's of the level of perfection you have described are rather thin on the ground now. I assume they were also protection trained to complete the total package???

No they where not, because not all GSDs are made for that kind of thing

I agree, they don't all turn out with the required traits for protection work, but they are supposed to if the dog complies with the breed standards in one way or another.

Crap I better return both my labradors then! Neither of them retrieve!!

Oh wait, thats because they aren't from working dog lines, they're from guide dog lines.

Just like my GSDs weren't from working dog lines, they where from show dog lines. Bred to be family pets and show dogs.

[SpecTraining]

I can't comment on others capablilities here Aidan having never seen their work and would be wrong of me to do so.

Yet that is exactly what you did do.

No Aidan, I didn't name you or anyone else as inferior trainers and don't intend to. I said that trainers who use halti's and harnessess and refuse to perform a physical correction training working breeds make a difference to the dog's behavior and some not too bad, but the best I have seen, (bearing in mind, I haven't seen them all as you haven't seen all of them trained in opposing methods), haven't resulted in a behaviour I would call reliable. Everyone as I mentioned before will have a different definition of reliability. What you may define as wonderful behaviour for me may be mediocre and vice versa. When ultimate reliability is required in a working dog, very few if any are trained on halti's, harnessess without ever experiencing a physical correction.

Regardless of what you had said earlier, I agree with the above. Very reliable behaviour can be obtained without corrections but rarely is for pragmatic reasons.

Also, I believe there is a difference between how the dog performs in working situations vs how the dog responds to other dogs, people etc. I do not spend a great deal of time with clients building anything more than acceptable leash manners, solid recalls, and long downs (often with a tether). Apart from the recall, I require none of these to approach a competitive standard. However, the focus is on having the dog comfortable around other dogs/people rather than simply being under control (not that being under control is anything to be scoffed at). For various reasons I prefer this approach, for a start there are no surprises, for another these are not sporting dogs and their owners would like them to be able to relax and maybe even walk off-leash with other dogs (which we do achieve in many cases even with quite seriously aggressive dogs who have previously caused damage).

I had one client, now a good friend, whose dog was terrified of children and had a bite history with adult men, drugged and muzzled in public. She now has two children of her own (plus nieces and nephews) and her dog is able to co-exist with them without any concerns. Whilst I'm sure that having reliable behaviour in all circumstances would help this situation, I don't consider it to be enough. There is no confidence to be gained from feigned civility. I like to be sure that the dog is actually comfortable, not just acting out of avoidance. Dogs can learn to be comfortable through avoidance, but there is no basis for objective measurement there that I know of (and I do know rather a lot about objective measurement of affective states).

I hope that makes sense and illustrates some of the differences in our approaches. Please note that I have not been critical of your approach, only some of the assertions made about it (a handler cannot be bitten while hanging a dog, all young GSDs need it if they demonstrate inappropriate aggressive behaviour etc)

Nice informative post Aidan, makes good sense to me appreciated, thanks

[SpecTraining]

Geez, if only I could find GSD's like yours today, unfortunately GSD's of the level of perfection you have described are rather thin on the ground now. I assume they were also protection trained to complete the total package???

No they where not, because not all GSDs are made for that kind of thing

I agree, they don't all turn out with the required traits for protection work, but they are supposed to if the dog complies with the breed standards in one way or another.

Crap I better return both my labradors then! Neither of them retrieve!!

Oh wait, thats because they aren't from working dog lines, they're from guide dog lines.

Just like my GSDs weren't from working dog lines, they where from show dog lines. Bred to be family pets and show dogs.

No, that's not quite right, show dogs are supposed to be Schutzhund titled when bred by the book which is a working test to determine the correct traits.

Edited September 21, 2010 by SpecTraining

[SpecTraining]

You go on the personality of the dog on how hard or if any correction is applied In my eyes if one of the GSD dogs i use to breed could not bounce back after a correction I WOULD NOT BREED FROM THAT DOG as it has a week temperament and is not suitable to use to breed a working line GSD.

In my eyes the GSD breed as a whole has gone down hill in the last 20years a lot of breeders can breed a pretty dog but the only way to really test the temperament of a true GSD breed stock is to be involved in shutzhund

Yes, absolutely. Further more to attain a Schutzhund title, the whole temperament of the dog is tested including a companion animal test (pet test) being the foundation pass required.

Edited September 21, 2010 by SpecTraining

[Tapferhund]

The only thing that two trainers will agree on is that the third trainer is doing it all wrong - same thing is happening here

Not everyone has the funds to see a behaviourist at the drop of a hat so in the meantime people who have the courage to use this forum would like some constructive information based on OP's experience with aggressive dogs.

Funny that poodlefan would gladly string up a GSD that attacked her dogs but is totally against a GSD owner doing it - see, I am even lowering my standards to match the theme

It's a little more than that here. People are saying that one of the techniques being promoted is too potentially dangerous to recommend without direct knowledge of the dog and handler involved. OK as an emergency control measure in a crisis maybe, but grossly irresponsible to recommend as a training technique sight unseen.

They are saying the advice could get the handler or the dog seriously hurt. And that is more than a disagreement over technique, that's a disagreement over duty of care and personal responsibility.

The other theme I read in this thread is that GSDs are different to other breeds, that dominance and sharpness are desirable characteristics in a good GSD, and therefore only experienced GSD trainers can handle what the breed 'experts' on here see as typical GSD adolescent aggression. The message is that aggression is so common and so stereotypical in GSDs that ways to manage it can be reliably prescribed over the internet, by GSD trainers only and again sight unseen, and they need to be very forceful methods indeed.

I don't buy that last argument, but it's the most convincing damn argument for restrictions on the ownership of a particular breed I have heard for a long time, given that it comes from people claiming decades of breed experience. I'm saddened that a breed community that has been through that once isn't more careful in how it presents itself.

That 'theme' is absolute garbage and those who believe such garbage, especially those who have Shepherds, should be ashamed of themselves. Tin pot experts they are...nothing more nothing less .

[SpecTraining]

I wouldn't exactly be crying myself to sleep at night if they don't come back

That is very sad to hear especially from someone wanting to become a trainer. Its worth having an open mind and learning from everyone you can even if you dont agree with everything they say.

Do I want to be anywhere near someone who suggests choking a dog they have never met, to an owner they know nothing about? A dog that is walked on a halti by a small owner with a bad back...

Yeah I think I'll pass..

I would suggest a prong collar as a better tool for a small owner with a bad back

[SpecTraining]

The only thing that two trainers will agree on is that the third trainer is doing it all wrong - same thing is happening here

Not everyone has the funds to see a behaviourist at the drop of a hat so in the meantime people who have the courage to use this forum would like some constructive information based on OP's experience with aggressive dogs.

Funny that poodlefan would gladly string up a GSD that attacked her dogs but is totally against a GSD owner doing it - see, I am even lowering my standards to match the theme

It's a little more than that here. People are saying that one of the techniques being promoted is too potentially dangerous to recommend without direct knowledge of the dog and handler involved. OK as an emergency control measure in a crisis maybe, but grossly irresponsible to recommend as a training technique sight unseen.

They are saying the advice could get the handler or the dog seriously hurt. And that is more than a disagreement over technique, that's a disagreement over duty of care and personal responsibility.

The other theme I read in this thread is that GSDs are different to other breeds, that dominance and sharpness are desirable characteristics in a good GSD, and therefore only experienced GSD trainers can handle what the breed 'experts' on here see as typical GSD adolescent aggression. The message is that aggression is so common and so stereotypical in GSDs that ways to manage it can be reliably prescribed over the internet, by GSD trainers only and again sight unseen, and they need to be very forceful methods indeed.

I don't buy that last argument, but it's the most convincing damn argument for restrictions on the ownership of a particular breed I have heard for a long time, given that it comes from people claiming decades of breed experience. I'm saddened that a breed community that has been through that once isn't more careful in how it presents itself.

That 'theme' is absolute garbage and those who believe such garbage, especially those who have Shepherds, should be ashamed of themselves. Tin pot experts they are...nothing more nothing less .

Wow!!!, that was straight to the point, nice to see some valuable input You don't have a membership form handy for the Tin Pot Experts Club Tapferhund..........sound's like fun

Edited September 21, 2010 by SpecTraining

[poodlefan]

The only thing that two trainers will agree on is that the third trainer is doing it all wrong - same thing is happening here

Not everyone has the funds to see a behaviourist at the drop of a hat so in the meantime people who have the courage to use this forum would like some constructive information based on OP's experience with aggressive dogs.

Funny that poodlefan would gladly string up a GSD that attacked her dogs but is totally against a GSD owner doing it - see, I am even lowering my standards to match the theme

Poodlefan did what she had to do when an idiot with a dog aggressive GSD that had to be screamed at to put his effing dog on lead, HANDED THE LEASH TO HIS CHILD and the dog broke free and ran straight at my dog to grab it. Did you miss the bit when the guy snatched the lead from my hands and the dog latched onto his arm. Can't say I was too upset.

Poodlefan DID NOT recommend a person she's never met, perform the technique on a dog she'd never seen as a method of correcting this behaviour. Turns out the OP isn't physcially capable of doing it but that came out well after the GSD expert had delivered the diagnosis and recommended cure.

I have also said the technique has its uses. Try taking off those breed blinkers and actually reading my posts for a change rather than turning this into some sort of GSD owner/working dog trainer vs the rest argument.

The facts are that a person with no knowledge of the dog or owner prescribed a training technique that requires strength and timing to pull off safely. Lament all you like that a "experienced GSD trainer" has left but he/she will be back, in yet another manifestation to prescribe yet more unsafe techniqueas to pet dog owners. I'd love to know how much succes that person has had rehabilitating aggressive dogs over the internet with no background evaluations. Eff all would be my guess

And when he/she emerges with a new name and hands out the kind of advice that puts owners in hospital and GSDs to sleep, I'll take issue with the advice again.

Edited September 21, 2010 by poodlefan

[Quickasyoucan]

Well said PF (waiting for that name change though ) How about Deschonko

Even CM has the sense to say do not try this without consulting a professional

To the OP will be interested to see how you go with your dog, hopefully you will be able to find a behaviourist to suit. We are a bit spoilt those of us who live in metropolitan areas.

It is money well spent though if you can find one to suit.

Good luck with your endeavours, I have a friend who has a dog (not a GSD) with very strong aggression towards fluffies, she has made great strides under a behaviourist here in Sydney and her life and that of her dog is greatly improved from what it was.

ETA completely off topic are you the same person Aidan and Aidan2??

Edited September 22, 2010 by Quickasyoucan

[Aidan3]

ETA completely off topic are you the same person Aidan and Aidan2??

Yes, sorry about that. I should just get rid of one account but it suits me to have the email notifications come through to different places when I am in different places (work vs home or uni).

[Quickasyoucan]

ETA completely off topic are you the same person Aidan and Aidan2??

Yes, sorry about that. I should just get rid of one account but it suits me to have the email notifications come through to different places when I am in different places (work vs home or uni).

Or does it actually reflect your split personality

Actually I thought you were since you never contradicted or took issue with anything one of your alter egos said

[Aidan3]

Or does it actually reflect your split personality

Actually I thought you were since you never contradicted or took issue with anything one of your alter egos said

My split personalities must be remarkably consistent!

If it wasn't such a long drive I would be using Aidan2 to back up things Aidan said and vice-versa, "Yeah, awesome post Aidan2, you really hit the nail on the head!" "Thanks Aidan, I think your posts are brilliant too!"