Please Help With Gsd Aggression.

[SpecTraining]

SpecTraining:

Rocky you bought for a pet and a fine pet he should make, but Rocky is also a working breed and if you hadn't have bought Rocky, he could quite easily have been purchased by the police to live a working dog life

And there's a very good chance he'd not have made the grade. I live next door to the head of a police dog team and I know how many dogs they look at before they find one that will suit.

Lots of GSD's lack the nerve and drive and soundness to work for a living. This is not news to anyone I thought.

I made that comment to highlight that the dog is a working breed and "may" have working traits which many do. Often people believe because a working breed is purchased for a pet, that working traits will be non existant which is not true and often leads IMHO to incorrect training techniques. I have seen many pet trainers refuse to leash correct a GSD because they had a Golden Retriever shut down from a correction using the basis that the GSD being a pet shouldn't need a leash correction, or because it is a pet, it will shut down as a result.

It would have been clearer if you had written this instead ;)

I will try and improve my clarity............G

[m-j]

The people who I know personally who would string up a dog for aggressive responses are:

1) security guards

2) prepared to be bitten

3) prepared to take the fight to the dog and go as far as necessary to win if the dog comes up leash at them

Not a lot of people (including me!) are willing to do those things

They don't always win though I know of one trainer who ended up with a short stay in hospital, after a decade and a bit of experience on lots of dogs, large and not so large....oops wrong dog to do that to.

[SpecTraining]

The only thing that two trainers will agree on is that the third trainer is doing it all wrong - same thing is happening here ;)

Not everyone has the funds to see a behaviourist at the drop of a hat so in the meantime people who have the courage to use this forum would like some constructive information based on OP's experience with aggressive dogs.

Funny that poodlefan would gladly string up a GSD that attacked her dogs but is totally against a GSD owner doing it - see, I am even lowering my standards to match the theme

It's a little more than that here. People are saying that one of the techniques being promoted is too potentially dangerous to recommend without direct knowledge of the dog and handler involved. OK as an emergency control measure in a crisis maybe, but grossly irresponsible to recommend as a training technique sight unseen.

They are saying the advice could get the handler or the dog seriously hurt. And that is more than a disagreement over technique, that's a disagreement over duty of care and personal responsibility.

The other theme I read in this thread is that GSDs are different to other breeds, that dominance and sharpness are desirable characteristics in a good GSD, and therefore only experienced GSD trainers can handle what the breed 'experts' on here see as typical GSD adolescent aggression. The message is that aggression is so common and so stereotypical in GSDs that ways to manage it can be reliably prescribed over the internet, by GSD trainers only and again sight unseen, and they need to be very forceful methods indeed.

I don't buy that last argument, but it's the most convincing damn argument for restrictions on the ownership of a particular breed I have heard for a long time, given that it comes from people claiming decades of breed experience. I'm saddened that a breed community that has been through that once isn't more careful in how it presents itself.

The GSD is a guardian breed and yes aggressive traits necessary to fulfil such a role do surface. The problem is, traits of aggression are often not talked about and even a breeder who has lovely dogs behave that way because they have the experience to raise, train and handle them properly and make a nice pet out of them. Give the same dog as a pup to an inexperienced owner who doesn't realise that certain behaviours need to be nipped in the bud to shape the dog into a pet home, the same dog can be a total nightmare for the inexperienced where the same dog for an experinced home would be dream pet.

[lovemesideways]

The only thing that two trainers will agree on is that the third trainer is doing it all wrong - same thing is happening here

Not everyone has the funds to see a behaviourist at the drop of a hat so in the meantime people who have the courage to use this forum would like some constructive information based on OP's experience with aggressive dogs.

Funny that poodlefan would gladly string up a GSD that attacked her dogs but is totally against a GSD owner doing it - see, I am even lowering my standards to match the theme ;)

Funny that you completely ignore the part where I mentioned a guy hanging his own dog on a lead and it taking a piece out of him. Guess it wouldn't be as easy to be snarky if you actually replied to everything huh ? Woops!

The other theme I read in this thread is that GSDs are different to other breeds, that dominance and sharpness are desirable characteristics in a good GSD, and therefore only experienced GSD trainers can handle what the breed 'experts' on here see as typical GSD adolescent aggression. The message is that aggression is so common and so stereotypcial in GSDs that ways to manage it can be reliably prescribed over the internet, again sight unseen, and they need to be very forceful methods indeed.

Great post. People can't have it both ways - a lot of GSD fanciers would be suprised and upset that aggression was considered "normal" and "typical" of their breed? Next time someone posts "Is a GSD right for me?" or similar they should get directed to this thread?

Reading the breed standard - and not being a show/breeder type person I'm not an expert on these things - aggression of any kind would be a fault, certainly not normal? Even for a working dog, "aggression" needs to be controlled and not "I'm gunno kill the next fluffy that walks past"?

The OP is seeing a behaviourist, that is great. Behaviourists aren't luxuries when dealing with aggression. The only sound advice while waiting to see one is to muzzle the dog or keep them on your own property 24/7. Anything else can end in tears (usually for the smaller dog).

Poodlefan - some people seem to be very hung up on the fact that you own - gasp - poodles. They can't seem to look beyond that and listen to your advice. Maybe a change in name is required? GSDLover, RottieLady or something similar? Maybe then they can look past their prejudices and read the advice for what it is .

Just like I have labradors, so obviously I can't handle a "real dog" ;D!

I second the name change Poodlefan, you need something more hardcore obviously. Like "FullySIckDOgFigHTERss!!"

SpecTraining:

Rocky you bought for a pet and a fine pet he should make, but Rocky is also a working breed and if you hadn't have bought Rocky, he could quite easily have been purchased by the police to live a working dog life

And there's a very good chance he'd not have made the grade. I live next door to the head of a police dog team and I know how many dogs they look at before they find one that will suit.

Lots of GSD's lack the nerve and drive and soundness to work for a living. This is not news to anyone I thought.

I made that comment to highlight that the dog is a working breed and "may" have working traits which many do. Often people believe because a working breed is purchased for a pet, that working traits will be non existant which is not true and often leads IMHO to incorrect training techniques. I have seen many pet trainers refuse to leash correct a GSD because they had a Golden Retriever shut down from a correction using the basis that the GSD being a pet shouldn't need a leash correction, or because it is a pet, it will shut down as a result.

I Have seen GSDs shut down as result of a correction. Friend of mine took his boy Lobo into a GSD training class. Lobo was so anti check chain that he would flat out shut down. Refuse to move, cower, ect. He started from the beginning on a normal flat collar now has a great dog.

Rocky needs a working dog mechanic for the best opportunity to sort him out and working dog mechanics for the purpose of this post, don't use halti's and harnessess and refuse physical corrections. The dog mechanics who do use these tools will get you back on the road to limp home, but they won't fix your dog to the original performance that the breed is capable of.

Excuse me, are you saying that some of the trainers on this thread are incapable of working with GSDs on the basis of tools they may or may not use depending on the individual dog and/or client?

OK, I sometimes use harnesses. Are you saying that I am incompetent with GSDs because of this and that I misrepresent myself as a trainer? Have you got any evidence to prove this?

I can't comment on others capablilities here Aidan having never seen their work and would be wrong of me to do so. You are welcome to use a harness if you like them or any other tools and methods you wish to use. The people that do train GSD's on halti's, harnessess and refuse to physically correct them as I mentioned, I am yet to see these training methods and tools produce a dog that I consider has good, relaible behaviour. But what you consider good and what I may expect could be a competely different thing we are focusing on.

I have seen some excellent harness work whilst it is on the dog. That's no good for me needing a dog to work off leash for example.

Garry

Mentioned previously, we've always had GSDs until our current dogs. Never used any sort of check chain, just regular flat collar and lead. Great dogs, perfect heel, perfect recall, would stay happily on their mats all day. Could be eating a raw meaty bone and any child/person/dog/animal in the world could come up and take it off them. Our cat would go and pin them down for an ear cleaning.

GSDs we owned before that, recall was so good they could be in full flight after a rabbit, one word and they would spin and return. Dad taught them to leap the 6 metre fence out back (this is 15 or so years ago mind you) and one day they leaped over it, to go and greet our neighbour (little old lady) coming home with her shopping. She gave them both a pat, and sent them home over the fence.

Never had any problems with aggression, never had issues with small dogs. We used to have my sister in laws Pug come over and play with our guys, they loved it.

I think saying that someone can't train a GSD without physical correction shows your ignorance. Same as believing that because the GSD are used as working dogs means that EVERY GSD could be a working dog is ridiculous.

Edited September 21, 2010 by lovemesideways

[lovemesideways]

The only thing that two trainers will agree on is that the third trainer is doing it all wrong - same thing is happening here ;)

Not everyone has the funds to see a behaviourist at the drop of a hat so in the meantime people who have the courage to use this forum would like some constructive information based on OP's experience with aggressive dogs.

Funny that poodlefan would gladly string up a GSD that attacked her dogs but is totally against a GSD owner doing it - see, I am even lowering my standards to match the theme

It's a little more than that here. People are saying that one of the techniques being promoted is too potentially dangerous to recommend without direct knowledge of the dog and handler involved. OK as an emergency control measure in a crisis maybe, but grossly irresponsible to recommend as a training technique sight unseen.

They are saying the advice could get the handler or the dog seriously hurt. And that is more than a disagreement over technique, that's a disagreement over duty of care and personal responsibility.

The other theme I read in this thread is that GSDs are different to other breeds, that dominance and sharpness are desirable characteristics in a good GSD, and therefore only experienced GSD trainers can handle what the breed 'experts' on here see as typical GSD adolescent aggression. The message is that aggression is so common and so stereotypical in GSDs that ways to manage it can be reliably prescribed over the internet, by GSD trainers only and again sight unseen, and they need to be very forceful methods indeed.

I don't buy that last argument, but it's the most convincing damn argument for restrictions on the ownership of a particular breed I have heard for a long time, given that it comes from people claiming decades of breed experience. I'm saddened that a breed community that has been through that once isn't more careful in how it presents itself.

The GSD is a guardian breed and yes aggressive traits necessary to fulfil such a role do surface. The problem is, traits of aggression are often not talked about and even a breeder who has lovely dogs behave that way because they have the experience to raise, train and handle them properly and make a nice pet out of them. Give the same dog as a pup to an inexperienced owner who doesn't realise that certain behaviours need to be nipped in the bud to shape the dog into a pet home, the same dog can be a total nightmare for the inexperienced where the same dog for an experinced home would be dream pet.

I could say the same thing about both of my dogs. Neither are GSDs. Riddick could have become incredibly fear aggressive towards people, Easy. Especially children.

[Diva]

I could say the same thing about both of my dogs. Neither are GSDs. Riddick could have become incredibly fear aggressive towards people, Easy. Especially children.

Yes, you could say it about a lot of individuals in a lot of breeds I think.

Thre's a lot to be said for placing the right pup in the right home and providing the right advice.

Even for dogs that aren't GSDs

[Aidan3]

I can't comment on others capablilities here Aidan having never seen their work and would be wrong of me to do so.

Yet that is exactly what you did do.

[siks3]

You go on the personality of the dog on how hard or if any correction is applied In my eyes if one of the GSD dogs i use to breed could not bounce back after a correction I WOULD NOT BREED FROM THAT DOG as it has a week temperament and is not suitable to use to breed a working line GSD.

In my eyes the GSD breed as a whole has gone down hill in the last 20years a lot of breeders can breed a pretty dog but the only way to really test the temperament of a true GSD breed stock is to be involved in shutzhund

[RockDog]

MY HEAD HURTS!!!

[jesomil]

Another experienced trainer chased away. You see it all the time on here. Someone with a different view to the majority of regulars and what they say gets totally nitpicked and turned around then they cant be bothered to respond anymore and disappear....

Its generally the working dog trainers. Been a couple this year. So sad.

Yes, jump on me and say, but you cant recommend air blocking a dog on a public pet forum, and yes I agree, but there is a place for the technique in experienced hands and i said experienced hands, not in the young inexperienced hands.

[Nekhbet]

The people who I know personally who would string up a dog for aggressive responses are:

1) security guards

2) prepared to be bitten

3) prepared to take the fight to the dog and go as far as necessary to win if the dog comes up leash at them

Not a lot of people (including me!) are willing to do those things

Kavik is right. It takes an experienced person to do this.

Anyhoo I don't see what you're all arguing about. Training is horses for courses, what suits one dog wont suit another so technically you're all wrong AND right. Let it go *sigh*

Another experienced trainer chased away. You see it all the time on here. Someone with a different view to the majority of regulars and what they say gets totally nitpicked and turned around then they cant be bothered to respond anymore and disappear....

Its generally the working dog trainers. Been a couple this year. So sad.

Yes, jump on me and say, but you cant recommend air blocking a dog on a public pet forum, and yes I agree, but there is a place for the technique in experienced hands and i said experienced hands, not in the young inexperienced hands.

The empty carts make the most noise sometimes. Personally some people on this forum dont seem to understand that if you have nothing good or contructive to say then dont say anything at all> And don't make blind guesses that people may follow because you think it worked with your dog.

But oh well. I just give my opinion and if it gets found it gets found. At least I can say I have dealt with and successfully trained aggressive dogs when I give my opinion.

[ChristineX]

Dear Rockdog,

dont worry about it.

You are doing what we have all suggested, keeping Rocky out of potential trouble, and finding someone with experience to help as soon as possible.

Everything else boils down to different people having different experiences with different dogs and talking about it. Each dog is an individual, and each dog will require tailored training for similar problems.

You are doing fine, and thank you for getting everyone talking - I do learn a lot when they do that (even if it is a bit on the argumentative side!)

Let us know how things go,,,,

ChristineX

[huski]

Another experienced trainer chased away. You see it all the time on here. Someone with a different view to the majority of regulars and what they say gets totally nitpicked and turned around then they cant be bothered to respond anymore and disappear....

Its generally the working dog trainers. Been a couple this year. So sad.

Yes, jump on me and say, but you cant recommend air blocking a dog on a public pet forum, and yes I agree, but there is a place for the technique in experienced hands and i said experienced hands, not in the young inexperienced hands.

Then what's the problem? No one here has said, it should never ever be used at all full stop. The issues people had with what was posted was that it was being recommended as a guaranteed fool proof method on a dog the poster has never seen. I would run a mile from ANY trainer who told me to air block my aggressive dog as a first, only and best way of dealing with his aggression.

Oh and sure those "couple" of posters are not the same ones, Jesomil?

[lovemesideways]

MY HEAD HURTS!!!

welcome to DOL!

Ignore all this really, go with whatever the trainer you pick says! Feel free to PM me if you like (Im not trainer, but I know a few )

Another experienced trainer chased away. You see it all the time on here. Someone with a different view to the majority of regulars and what they say gets totally nitpicked and turned around then they cant be bothered to respond anymore and disappear....

Its generally the working dog trainers. Been a couple this year. So sad.

Yes, jump on me and say, but you cant recommend air blocking a dog on a public pet forum, and yes I agree, but there is a place for the technique in experienced hands and i said experienced hands, not in the young inexperienced hands.

I wouldn't exactly be crying myself to sleep at night if they don't come back

[jesomil]

But oh well. I just give my opinion and if it gets found it gets found. At least I can say I have dealt with and successfully trained aggressive dogs when I give my opinion.

And here is the key. You have successfully trained aggressive dogs. There are some pretty strong opinions on here from people who have had nothing to do with aggression let alone successfully worked with them.

[lovemesideways]

Another experienced trainer chased away. You see it all the time on here. Someone with a different view to the majority of regulars and what they say gets totally nitpicked and turned around then they cant be bothered to respond anymore and disappear....

Its generally the working dog trainers. Been a couple this year. So sad.

Yes, jump on me and say, but you cant recommend air blocking a dog on a public pet forum, and yes I agree, but there is a place for the technique in experienced hands and i said experienced hands, not in the young inexperienced hands.

Then what's the problem? No one here has said, it should never ever be used at all full stop. The issues people had with what was posted was that it was being recommended as a guaranteed fool proof method on a dog the poster has never seen. I would run a mile from ANY trainer who told me to air block my aggressive dog as a first, only and best way of dealing with his aggression.

Oh and sure those "couple" of posters are not the same ones, Jesomil?

Ah yes, interesting hey how one vanishes, yet a new poster who has Never posted before returns to argue their case?

[Aidan3]

Its generally the working dog trainers. Been a couple this year. So sad.

You could be forgiven for believing that. But I wouldn't worry too much, they never left and they never stopped contributing. People can say anything about their identity, whereabouts and experience. SchH is a very small sport in Australia and many competitors are here or are known personally by DOLers.

[jesomil]

I wouldn't exactly be crying myself to sleep at night if they don't come back

That is very sad to hear especially from someone wanting to become a trainer. Its worth having an open mind and learning from everyone you can even if you dont agree with everything they say.

[Kavik]

To be fair on those suggesting stringing the dog up, maybe they really don't realise that not everybody has the temperament and experience to do this safely. If it is part and parcel of how they train dogs and how they generally treat aggression problems, they may not realise that other people do not do so and may not feel comfortable challenging their dog in this way (and how dangerous it can be).

[Staranais]

To be fair on those suggesting stringing the dog up, maybe they really don't realise that not everybody has the temperament and experience to do this safely. If it is part and parcel of how they train dogs and how they generally treat aggression problems, they may not realise that other people do not do so and may not feel comfortable challenging their dog in this way (and how dangerous it can be).

I suspect this is probably the case.