Please Help With Gsd Aggression.

[RockDog]

Appologies that this post is so long, but I want to give as much info as I can

think of, to assist anyone who offers help.

I have a 12mo intact GSD who came to me at 10 weeks old from reputable breeder of Australian champions. He's always been very good natured, calm, confident, not easily spooked (I've never seen him spooked), and I made sure he was well socialised.

I have just started using the clicker a couple of months ago, but just simple stuff like "101 things to do with a box".

I practice NILIF, so very rarely does he eat out of a bowl, he earns his meal kibble-by-kibble during a training session.

He's a family pet, no competing, so "training sessions" are 10 minutes of sit, give, look, etc.

He plays nicely with large dogs who like to roughouse and run, and has learned to take notice of other large/medium dogs' signals of "I don't want to play" or

"get away from me".

Not little dogs though, he has always kept on annoying them when they tell him to "nick off", until I call him away.

Until a few weeks ago, my only two problems with him were that he lunges on the leash when he sees another dog (wants to get to it to play), and that he plays

too rough with small dogs.

I had a housemate until recently. My housemate has an unsocialised 16mo Jack Russell/Shih-Tzu (Spongey).

When him and my GSD (Rocky) first met 9 weeks before, there was a bit of a scuffle to do with Spongey and Rocky trying to get to me when I was eating my tea on my

lap, and the result was a 1cm tear in Spongey's ear.

Since then, Spongey had occasionally growled at Rocky, who has either ignored him or walked up to him and stood over him and growled. When Rocky did this

Spongey would usually roll on his back, but there had been a couple of times when Spongey has growled while on his back, and Rocky has 'had a go' at him. By this,

I mean a light scuffle lasting three seconds but no-one hurt.

Since then, the two dogs did seem to have become good friends and had been playing together, roughousing, running around the back yard and in the

house. Sometimes Rocky will have had enough or get distracted and finish playing, but Spongey hadn't finished and would try to engage Rocky in more rough play,

nipping his mouth and jumping up at him. Rocky didn't seem to mind this at all and would either ignore him or play more.

Spongey's owner sat on the couch most of the day and evening, with Spongey either on his lap or under a very small table next to the owner's legs.

Sometimes if Rocky just walked past minding his own business, spongey would growl at him (which I assume is protecting his owner?).

Rocky used to either ignore this or walk over to Spongey and growl back. If Spongey was on his owner's lap at the time, he would keep growling and I would

call Rocky away nicely, or if Spongey was on the floor he would roll onto his back.

A few weeks ago, I brought Rocky in from the back yard and we walked into the hallway and past the open lounge door. Spongey and his owner's usual spot is about 2 metres inside the doorway we were passing.

Spongey jumped down from his owner, ran towards Rocky barking and growling, then turned and jumped onto his owner's lap. His owner, as usual, held Spongey to his

belly and told him to "shut up".

Rocky followed Spongey and 'had a go' at him. The owner slid out the way and I had to grab Rocky's collar and pull him off because Spongey was screaming!!

As I pulled him off I said "NO!" Made Rocky come a couple of meters away with me and sit, and look at me. I was talking to him nicely, and praised him for it.

I told John that he mustn't let Spongey under the table or on the couch or at his feet any more while Rocky's in the room or coming into the room.

One evening, John had taken Spongey out fishing and when they came home, Spongey came into the kitchen, where I was. I don't know if Rocky was already in

the kitchen with me or if he followed Spongey in, but suddenly, behind me, Rocky attacked Spongey. I didn't hear Spongey growl first, though.

I pulled Rocky off by the collar, Sponge ran away and I let go of the collar. I followed Rocky around to the back door behind the couch, with the intention

of putting him outside. Partly to avoid a rematch, and partly to give him time out (which I've never done before).

Unfortunately, behind the couch is exactly where Spongey had gone to hide, and Rocky went for him again!! No provocation, Spongey was just cowering and Rocky

lunged.

Again, I pulled him off, said "NO", and put him outside.

There were no wounds on Spongey, and John put him in his bedroom.

If Spongey had growled first and Rocky had retaliated, I wouldn't have been quite as worried. But not only did Spongey not initiate it, but Rocky went for a second go when he found Spongey hiding!!

We managed to keep Rocky and Spongey separated for the next few days, then I went away to Perth for two weeks, taking Rocky with me.

John then came to Perth to stay at the same house for a couple of nights. And he brought Spongey with him!!

When he got out the car, Spongey went to the gate, which Rocky was behind, and they sniffed politely, tails wagging.

I called Spongey away, but a minute later John opened the gate, thinking everything was fine now. Actually so did I, so I squeezed through the gate and

happily called Rocky away with me.

No such luck, he went straight for Sponge. The John had run away to his phone by this point. I called Rocky, and used my emergency recall. He stopped

and looked at me, but then Spongey went to get off his back and move away, so Rocky started on him again.

I was pulling Rocky off by the scruff of the neck (no collar), but he had Spongey in his mouth and even started shaking his head a bit.

This went on for ages, and I couldn't get Rocky off.

Eventually, John came and got Rocky off by grabbing his throat, while my son pulled Spongey out from underneath.

To my great surprise, Spongey wasn't damaged except for a couple of bruises. I thought Rocky was trying to tear him apart!!

I was so shaken up by this! And some neighbours had come out to see what on earth was going on.

Since then, a Facebook 'friend' has directed me towards some videos she's made of getting attention and eye contact. I've been practicing that, c/t for 3

seconds, 6 seconds, 4 seconds etc unbroken eye contact. Just started on adding small distractions too.

Also, I'm asking for, and rewarding, eye contact before daily things like getting in/out of the car, through a door way, throwing a fetch toy, etc.

So Monday afternoon, I was playing fetch with Rocky in the back yard, and my other two dogs were milling around my feet. This is common, and has never been a

problem before (my other two don't play fetch).

He was coming back towards me with the fetch toy in his mouth, and went to Taffy (my 13 yo Staffy female) to initiate play. He was play bowing, but then was bothering her by going right up to her face and nudging her.

Just as I called him away, she growled and air-snapped at him. This is by far not the first time, and usually he won't react aggressively, he'll keep bothering her and I call him away.

This time though, he stood with his four legs over her (so her back was touching his belly), and she growled and snapped, and they had a fight.

Rocky had the upper hand because of his size, I guess, and at one point he had her right shoulder in his mouth and she was screaming. I was scared so I was

shouting his name, and managed to pull him off by the collar.

But then she got up and went for him, and he then had her thigh in his mouth. I managed to get him off somehow, and as she was, yet again, going for him, I grabbed her collar and pushed her away.

I put Rocky inside the house straight away, and checked on Taffy while I calmed down.

She has one puncture wound in her shoulder and one on her thigh. I realise he could have done real damage if he'd wanted to, and he didn't, but

there are still the puncture wounds.

Since the incidents with Spongey a few weeks ago, I've kept him away from other dogs, except 3 big ones who he knows and plays well with. When we've come

accross small dogs, he's eyed them off, and sometimes lunged or barked, depending on how close they were. I've called him away nicely, pulled the leash

to walk away in the other direction, made him look at me, and praised him for doing so.

But now since the fight with my Staffy last Monday, he's got worse. If we're in a parked car and a dog comes by, he'll bark aggressively and go nuts. He Never used to do that!

And the other day he was lunging and barking aggressively at another large dog, while I was trying to hold on to the lead. That's the first time he's had an aggressive reaction to a large dog.

Same thing happened this evening, we were talking to some people, Rocky was relaxed and getting petted by some small kids, than a Shih-Tzu walked by, about 30 meters away. He went nuts, and I only just managed to hold on to his leash!

Any ideas on what's going on and what I should do?

Thank you so much for reading,

Sian.

[sas]

Sorry to hear what's going on, it's great though that you're seeking help now, not 6 months down the track.

Get in a Behaviourist in (preferably that is reccomended by word of mouth, maybe someone here can suggest someone) and they can take a better look at what is going on.

If you can seperate the dog from other dogs whilst you wait for the Behaviourist that sounds like the best thing to do?

[RockDog]

Thanks sas.

I'm keeping Rocky and Taffy 99% separated.

One thing I do with them was advised by a trainer in the US, who works daily with reactive dogs.

I kneel on the floor, tether Rocky, have him facing my right side in a sit, and have Taffy facing my left side in a sit. I feed them alternately, and I sneak in a few clicks for eye contact from Rocky as well.

Really want to get this sorted as soon as possible cos I know that the more he practices this aggressive behaviour, the more he'll do it.

I'm so lucky he hasn't damaged someone's dog. YET.

Well, apart from my Staffy that is.

[Vickie]

Agree with SAS, the only advice anyone should give in a case of escalating aggression is that you seek professional help.

Reading your post, you make reference a few times to the fact that he could have done more damage but didn't. If I could offer any advice, i would say to be careful about thinking like this. Most of us will try to excuse & justify when things are not going well, we all do it at times. If you can, try not to. It doesn't really help & sometimes can put us in the wrong state of mind to effectively deal with a problem.

I hope you get this sorted soon, it must be very stressful & he sounds like a really nice dog otherwise who you have put a lot of time into.

Edited September 17, 2010 by Vickie

[malsrock]

Hi RockDog,

What you need to do is knock that behaviour on the head fast as it will esculate. The "best and fastest" way to stop the behaviour is using negative reinforcement to teach the dog that acting aggressively, he's going to cop something he will respect. You need him on a leash and watch for an aggressive reaction and the moment he goes to lunge, lift the leash straight up, front legs off the ground with harsh NO command and air block him, hold him up until he looks at you, then slowly release him to the ground. If he goes at it again, hoist him up again with another NO command and he will get the message that aggression will not be tolorated under any circumstances.

If you feel uneasy about the process, best hire a good trainer who is experienced in K9 type training of working dogs, but be careful hiring clicker and treat trainers for correction of that behaviour as they won't fix it. A good quality GSD can handle that type of correction and will respect you for taking a leading role in your relationship and will transform the aggressive reactions quickly.

Best of luck

Fiona

[Aidan3]

Spongey jumped down from his owner, ran towards Rocky barking and growling, then turned and jumped onto his owner's lap. His owner, as usual, held Spongey to his

belly and told him to "shut up".

From this it looks like Spongey has been reinforced for growling by his owner. No wonder Rocky has been escalating his attempts to feel safe around Spongey.

Does Rocky behave like this around other dogs? My guess is that he doesn't, because there is actually nothing wrong with him other than he has learned that the only way to get Spongey to back off is to give him a warning he will remember. It IS possible that this will begin to transfer to other dogs soon (if it hasn't already), and it IS possible that he will actually begin to hurt Spongey soon if you don't get professional help.

I don't think you will get far without addressing Spongey's problems first. You might shut down Rocky, but would it be reliable? Possibly, but unlikely unless something changes with Spongey, or you really shut Rocky down but that way lies "learned helplessness".

[persephone]

I don't think you will get far without addressing Spongey's problems first.

..and those of Spongey's owner

A good professional can assess how the household interacts, and help manage things .

[Zug Zug]

I agree professional help is needed. Ask around and make sure you get someone good.

I don't agree that negative reinforcement alone will fix Rocky's problem. It could possibly make things escalate further and a good behaviourist will look at your situation more closely and give you advice that matches the situation you are in.

Aggression problems are very challenging for the owner aren't they? Hang in there - you are doing the right thing by keeping Rocky separated from other dogs so he can't practice this behaviour any more than he has, while you line up that first appointment. I say this as an owner of a DA dog myself. It's not easy and can be very upsetting at times.

Good on you for taking responsibility and taking it seriously. So many people just fall into that trap of making excuses, and can't face the problem. You're facing it head on - three cheers from me!

[ChristineX]

Hi Rockdog,

you do need proffesional help, because it looks as though the aggression levels are rising. Keep in mind, if John and Spongy are going to be living with you they need the lessons just as bad as you and Rocky do - it has been their behaviour that has set this off. Please keep in mind that them leaving will not solve the problem, Rocky has now learnt a way to deal with snarky small dogs.

You are also not alone, lots of us have this problem. Okay, practical help. Try getting in touch with this lady - Kathy Kopellis McLeod 08-9345 5277 www.kathysdogtraining.com.au ; Kathy @kathysdogtraining.com.au - she is the lady everyone in my dog club gets referred to with problems like this. Please, avoid barkbusters, you need a real professional. Other perthites probably can provide more names of proffessionals as well.

I will admit to being a bit biased as I am a client of hers too, (my dog club referred me), and not only is she a really nice lady, she really knows her dogs.

And no, I dont get commissions! She's just my dogclus preferred dog aggression expert!

ChristineX

[freundhund]

I gather Rocky is not desexed? Which is great as he needs his hormones to complete his growth, however, I believe that he is now of an age where his hormones are starting to come into play and Rocky believes he needs to raise his position in the pack hirachy, (not on).

Being in WA if you can contact Honey Gross-Richardson who is involved and has had GSD's for 30+ years she is a very experienced person and could possibly put you in touch with or help you with sorting Rocky's issues out.

I have to agree with everyone who has suggested professional advice, as the scenario's need to be looked at by an oursider who can read the body languages or all parties involved both 2 and 4 legged.

All the best in sorting out Rocky's issues in the future.

[lovemesideways]

Hi RockDog,

What you need to do is knock that behaviour on the head fast as it will esculate. The "best and fastest" way to stop the behaviour is using negative reinforcement to teach the dog that acting aggressively, he's going to cop something he will respect. You need him on a leash and watch for an aggressive reaction and the moment he goes to lunge, lift the leash straight up, front legs off the ground with harsh NO command and air block him, hold him up until he looks at you, then slowly release him to the ground. If he goes at it again, hoist him up again with another NO command and he will get the message that aggression will not be tolorated under any circumstances.

If you feel uneasy about the process, best hire a good trainer who is experienced in K9 type training of working dogs, but be careful hiring clicker and treat trainers for correction of that behaviour as they won't fix it. A good quality GSD can handle that type of correction and will respect you for taking a leading role in your relationship and will transform the aggressive reactions quickly.

Best of luck

Fiona

Are you for real?

I would be seriously careful about ever recommending negative reinforcement in a situation like this where all you have is what the owner has said. You don't know why the dog is doing it and what reaction that dog will have to a correction of such force. Recommending anyone to hang a dog in the air by their lead is seriously not on!

[huski]

Hi RockDog,

What you need to do is knock that behaviour on the head fast as it will esculate. The "best and fastest" way to stop the behaviour is using negative reinforcement to teach the dog that acting aggressively, he's going to cop something he will respect. You need him on a leash and watch for an aggressive reaction and the moment he goes to lunge, lift the leash straight up, front legs off the ground with harsh NO command and air block him, hold him up until he looks at you, then slowly release him to the ground. If he goes at it again, hoist him up again with another NO command and he will get the message that aggression will not be tolorated under any circumstances.

If you feel uneasy about the process, best hire a good trainer who is experienced in K9 type training of working dogs, but be careful hiring clicker and treat trainers for correction of that behaviour as they won't fix it. A good quality GSD can handle that type of correction and will respect you for taking a leading role in your relationship and will transform the aggressive reactions quickly.

Best of luck

Fiona

Hey Diablo/Rex/whatever - I thought it was you

[Yesmaam]

I have a 12mo intact GSD who came to me at 10 weeks old from reputable breeder of Australian champions.

What did you expect?? Your pup is obviously testing the waters and it will only get worse as he matures unless you sort out your pack structure...... seek professional help with this one.

Re:reputable breeder of Australian champions...... A GSD "Australian champion" does not have its temperament tested so it means nothing outside the showring.

[Staranais]

Sorry to hear what's going on, it's great though that you're seeking help now, not 6 months down the track.

Get in a Behaviourist in (preferably that is reccomended by word of mouth, maybe someone here can suggest someone) and they can take a better look at what is going on.

If you can seperate the dog from other dogs whilst you wait for the Behaviourist that sounds like the best thing to do?

Yes, agree 100%. Far easier to deal with these issues when they've just started, than after your dog has spent a year using the aggressive behaviour successfully.

Get yourself to a good behaviourist, recommended by someone you trust. Doesn't matter what methods they use so long as they get results.

Sounds to me like your dog has started to come into maturity, started throwing his weight around a bit starting with your housemate's pesky adolescent male, then got himself into a more serious fight & is now freaking out or firing up when he sees any other dog. But no one here has seen your dog in person - only heard your interpretation of what's going on - so no one can responsibly suggest a course of action over the internet.

[Kavik]

I don't think you will get far without addressing Spongey's problems first.

..and those of Spongey's owner

A good professional can assess how the household interacts, and help manage things .

Definitely agree with this! You need to get help and address the issues of both of these dogs as Spongey's behaviour is making things worse as well.

[RockDog]

First of all, there is NO WAY I would do what was suggested by malsrock! And I think it was VERY irresponsible of you to suggest it, Fiona. No offence, and I really do apreciate you taking the time to answer anyway .

I forgot to say that Spongey (and his owner) stopped living with us nearly 3 weeks ago, so they haven't seen each other since the day Rocky attacked him and had to be pulled off by the throat, in Perth.

I agree that the problem has come from Spongey being growly at Rocky for those weeks that he was living with us. It's been pointed out to me that I should have stepped in and done something at the beginning, which I REALLY regret not doing. I thought it was OK for Rocky to "correct" Spongey with a growl or stand over him, not realising that it would escelate.

Just as Rocky was turning aggressive towards Spongey, there was an incident at the school, about 5 weeks ago. We were standing at the chainlink fence, no-one around, Rocky relaxed, when a lady walked up behind us with her JRT on leash. Rocky saw them first and lunged towards the dog, taking me with him. They greeted, the JRT walked towards me, Rocky was being annoying and nudging him, the JRT growled, and then it was 'on'. No damage, and I managed to pull Rocky off after only 2 or 3 seconds, but that (at the time) had me confused as to what on earth had made Rocky do that. At the time, I put it down to Rocky resource guarding me.

About 4 weeks ago is when Rocky attacked Sponge in the kitchen, and about 3 weeks ago is when he attacked him at the gate in Perth and had to be pulled off by the throat. They haven't seen eachother since.

No incidents since then (I've tried to keep him from even seeing little dogs, but when he does he really wants to go after them, barking etc.)

Then last Monday the big fight with my Staffy.

I took notice of what was happening, which I saw as this - He approached her with a toy in his mouth, she growled at him to back off, he immediately stood over her, she growled again, and he attacked. Badly.

And there was last night, when he saw my friend's Shih-Tzu about 30 metres away and went nuts.

So yes, it is very much escalating.

I'm really worried that we ONLY have a week in Perth to see a behaviourist, and I have no money!! I'm going to borrow a couple of hundred, but I really want the best help I can get in that short time.

Funny that people have recommended Kathy Kopellis-McLeod. Someone told me the other day to "On no account go to her"! haha.

But seeing as she's been recommended here, I'll get in touch with this person and ask why she was so against her.

Thank you everybody for replying, and please, any suggestions as to what I could be doing now before we go to Perth, keep 'em coming

[RockDog]

Reading your post, you make reference a few times to the fact that he could have done more damage but didn't. If I could offer any advice, i would say to be careful about thinking like this. Most of us will try to excuse & justify when things are not going well, we all do it at times. If you can, try not to. It doesn't really help & sometimes can put us in the wrong state of mind to effectively deal with a problem.

You're absolutely right. Before hand, there'd been no actual damage, so I'd been thinking he had good bite inhibition and was just warning the other dogs to shut up. Although doing it in a very aggressive manner. But now my lovely old Staffy has two big tooth puncture wounds in her, and he's barking and growling at every dog he sees!

I know this is Very serious, and he will cause great damage, if not death, very soon.

[ChristineX]

Animal behaviouralists are like psychologists etc - you have to find someone you feel you can trust and who you can work with. The person who didn't like Kathy may well gell better with someone else.

I once had another behaviouralist out, but didn't really think much of him. However, he is highly regarded in GSD world - maybe he just meshes better with them than with irish terriers - who knows?

The nice thing about Kathy is that she also knows a lot of people in this particular industry, and if she can't help, can and will refer you on to someone who can.

She's made an unbelievabley huge difference in Duke (my IT) and I've seen the difference in those dogs who also come to her Reactive Rover class.

However, the most important thing - that you find someone who knows what they are doing to help.

And we were all so busy trying to think of ways to help . . . . . photos of your two dogs are considered mandatory!

ChristineX

[RockDog]

I have a 12mo intact GSD who came to me at 10 weeks old from reputable breeder of Australian champions.

What did you expect?? Your pup is obviously testing the waters and it will only get worse as he matures unless you sort out your pack structure...... seek professional help with this one.

Re:reputable breeder of Australian champions...... A GSD "Australian champion" does not have its temperament tested so it means nothing outside the showring.

I don't know what you mean by "What did you expect?". Are you suggesting I should expect every dog in the world to become DA? I don't think so. Please be clearer.

"Pack Structure"?? Hasn't the latest research knocked that archaic model on the head yet?

If you mean am I his leader, his guide, his teacher, then Yes. That's what I'm trying to be, but it's gone pear-shaped due to my lack of intervention over a few weeks, and I am now asking for assistance.

ALL GSD sold within the GSDAWA have to be breed surveyed, which includes temperament testing.

I would never buy a GSD from parents who hadn't been breed surveyed.

I was merely clarifying for readers that this is not some pup from a backyard breeder or pet shop. A breeding pair within the GSDWA Have been bred partly for temperament, and been tested.

I try to give as much info as I can, to assist people offering help.

[Nekhbet]

"Pack Structure"?? Hasn't the latest research knocked that archaic model on the head yet?

It hasnt actually. Well, it has to those that believe dogs need constant coddling and love to be just great furry humans.

Not little dogs though, he has always kept on annoying them when they tell him to "nick off", until I call him away.

Until a few weeks ago, my only two problems with him were that he lunges on the leash when he sees another dog (wants to get to it to play), and that he plays

too rough with small dogs.

If we're in a parked car and a dog comes by, he'll bark aggressively and go nuts. He Never used to do that!

And the other day he was lunging and barking aggressively at another large dog, while I was trying to hold on to the lead. That's the first time he's had an aggressive reaction to a large dog.

Same thing happened this evening, we were talking to some people, Rocky was relaxed and getting petted by some small kids, than a Shih-Tzu walked by, about 30 meters away. He went nuts, and I only just managed to hold on to his leash!

His behaviour has been building, he has technically always had a problem with little dogs but now he's a big strong man he's going to act like an adult and not a pup. THe doors open, his behaviour is self perpetuating. THe lack of intervention has not been from a few weeks but a long standing problem now presenting in an adult fashion.

My current suggestion is to keep the dogs separate, muzzle your GSD out in public for everyones safety and put him on equipment that you can control him on until you get professional help with someone who knows a lot about fixing aggression problems.

As for Malsrock's method, it still happens and it still works. Especially for those that cannot access an e-collar. I think if you have not used a correction collar on him up till now you need to invest in one and dont take any bad pack behaviour from him at all. Practice your walks, start in the front yard at least for now.