Immune System Issues In Doberman Breed

[Doberwatch]

Hi there,

I recently lost my beloved Doberman bitch at only 18mths old. It was a sudden onset on what the vet thought to be Viral Hemmographic Gastroenteritis. She seemed to be healthy less than 24hrs prior.

She had a surpressed immune system at a very young age which i believe contributed to a Demodetic mite problem which required a lenghty course of Ivermectin.

I'm left wondering if her immune system never really returned to "normal" and therfore had some influence on her fighting this virus?

From what i have heard from several vets, the Dobe is one breed known for immune system problems.

I will at some stage in the future endevour to buy another Dobe, hopefully healthy from the outset. What i would like to know is if there are various contributing factors that influence the strength/weakness of a dogs immune system? Genetics//food/environment etc?

Are there any Dobe breeders paying particular attention to this problem?

I paid good money for my bitch from a reputable working line breeder, and for her life to end so suddenly and at a young age has just left my heart torn. It was so unexpected. I want to gather as much info as possible before deciding on the next breeder. I will not return to same breeder.

Look forward to feedback.

[Remarkabull]

I can't answer the question re the health issues, however I just wanted to say how sorry I am that you lost her. Dobes are my heart breed and It took me almost 3 years after losing my last Dobe before I got another. We are now the very happy owners of a 6 month old male working line Dobe puppy. I still miss my other one every day, but Acheron (new pup) puts a smile on my face and brings me much joy.

I will be interested in what others have to say about this.

Oh, have you spoken to the breeder about this? What do they say?

[OSoSwift]

I am so sorry you lost your girl in such tragic circumstances.

I lost my Dobe girls at almost 12 to old age and 8 and a half from DCM - too young.

I wouldn't think that the Dobe is a breed predisposed to immune system problems, they can be a little predisposed to other issues but not in particular immune system ones. No-offence to the vets you have spoken to, but unless they are some sort of specialist they probably do not really have much of an idea.

VHG is a very nasty disease and some dogs do succum and quickly. I do know of some that have survived. My Dobe had something very similar but not quite as nasty as a young dog, she did not seem to have any particular immune system issues and was very healthy until claimed by DCM.

I hope when the time is right you will find the puppy of your dreams and the puppy will have a very healthy and full life.

MAybe check out the Dobe thread and they can let you know of some breeders to help you with your search - best of luck

[oakway]

You said you purchased off reputable working line breeder.

Was the breeder a registered breeder registered with their state controlling body such as

Dog's Queensland, Dogs New South Wales etc. ?.

[aussielover]

So sorry to hear you lost your girl

I would find a registered breeder that does all the breed specific health testing and also check the history of the parents and close relatives of the potential a few generations back to see if any problems have cropped up.

[aussielover]

So sorry to hear you lost your girl

I would find a registered breeder that does all the breed specific health testing and also check the history of the parents and close relatives of the potential a few generations back to see if any problems have cropped up.

[moosmum]

Such a shock to lose a dog so young and suddenly.

I agree with Aussie lover,check the back grounds as much as you are able.

I would imagine there are a lot of factors that could influence the immune system,but personaly I would have to put genetics at the top of the list and would always check on the level of line breeding.

Thats not to say your breeder is at fault,There are far too many unknowns to form an opinion on who,if anyone should be held accountable.

So very sorry for your loss.

[africandreams]

Hi, sorry to hear about the loss of your girl. Was her demodex generalised or localised? How do you know that she had a suppressed immune system?

Also, do you mean Hemorrhagic Gastro Enteritis?

This is not a genetic disease and doesn't have anything to do with the immune system being low. Certain breeds are predisposed to it, but dobes aren't one of them. The exact cause is unknown, can be stress, bacteria.

What did you feed your girl?

There's nothing that can be done to prevent this disease. It has nothing to do with genetics, so I wouldn't hold the breeder responsible! Once diagnosed the main aim is to stop dehydration.

The issues in dobes are vWD, Dilated Cardiomyopathy, Hypothyroidism, Wobblers.

Hope that helps

[africandreams]

Edited-posted twice

Edited September 18, 2010 by africandreams

[Nekhbet]

Speak to the girls breeder. If it is an immune problem then he should not be investigating what has happened and if he should continue breeding those dogs. I have a feeling I know who you purchased from.

Speak to Adelaide sportdog club if you want advice about breeders and maybe even meeting dogs from that breeder.

[Doberwatch]

Speak to the girls breeder. If it is an immune problem then he should not be investigating what has happened and if he should continue breeding those dogs. I have a feeling I know who you purchased from.

Speak to Adelaide sportdog club if you want advice about breeders and maybe even meeting dogs from that breeder.

thanks for the feedback, much appreciated, i'm not on speaking terms with the breeder due to other issues i had from day 1, these matters still in hands of Dogs Vic.

I'm a member of Adelaide Sportdog Club and was training my girl there.

She had a low immune system from a young pup, and according to my vet and also the skin specialist who treated her Demodetic mites, low immune systems are a major factor in a dog not being able to control the mite numbers. I just wonder if her immmune system never really recovered fully.

Given i'm not speaking to the breeder, are there other ways i can source health history within her pedigree?

[Doberwatch]

You said you purchased off reputable working line breeder.

Was the breeder a registered breeder registered with their state controlling body such as

Dog's Queensland, Dogs New South Wales etc. ?.

yes member of Dogs Victoria.

[sas]

I don't think it is just Dobes, it can be any breed.

My boy sounds similar to you.

He had Severe Allergic Skin disease from 3 months of age (ran hot from the time we got him), so that's a blow to his immune system, a number of really bad skin issues through his life.

He recently picked up a fungal infection most likely because of his crappy immune system and then whilst his immune system was having issues with that he developed Mange, he hasn't responded to the Anti-biotics and Mange dips so he's about to start the 6 week course of ivemectin.

Some dogs are just born with immune systems that don't function correctly, if a Breeder knowingly breeds a dog with an immune system problem (or a line with the problem) well that's a pretty crappy thing to do and is just continuing the problem.

I've had a foster Labrador who was 12 months old that was PTS as his body just could nto recover from Mange, the poor lad was in such a state and have sevre seperation anxiety which further created problems with the mange.

All I can suggest is research research research - Any sign of skin problems can indicate immune system problems and I wouldn't be getting a dog from that line, speak to lot's of Dobe people, go to Dog shows and speak to people - this isn't a guarantee you'll be safe but at least you'll know you did your research. Same thing goes if you want to research your dogs line to see if there are any apparant problems - not many people will talk though - people keep things close to their chest and those who don't like the breeder may just make stuff up - it's hard to get the truth.

Sorry you went through this :D

[africandreams]

post deleted

Edited September 18, 2010 by africandreams

[Nekhbet]

Oh Dobermum thats terrible ... Vic eh ... probably is who I'm thinking of then and if it is I'm not surprised you're getting the treatment you are about your beloved dobe. Is it a large very well known kennel that also has at least one other popular working breed? As for health, not much chance unless you start tracking people who own dogs from that kennel or breeding.

Yup demodex takes hold because the immune system cannot fight it. It's genetic despite what some breeders want to tell you and those dogs usually have immune problems for life (unless it's simple demodex due to hormone fluctuations during maturation) If the parents are throwing a pup like this then at least one of them should be out of hte breeding program.

You can try the Specialist Canine forum, there are many working dog people on there who may own dogs from that kennel or know of people who do. Or know the breeder.

HGE may not be a genetic disease but the difficulty to help dogs with these symptoms, and parvo/corona, stems from weak immune systems. The 'black and tans' like rotties being known to get it easier and longer. My own rottie has an absolutely abysmal immune system, 3+ weeks with parvo, all manner of immune mediated problems and it's never ending. Thankfully Demodex was one thing we never had.

[africandreams]

there are 2 types of demodex- generalised and localised. ALL dogs have the demodex mite. localised demodex can appear at a young age due to hormonal inbalances/stress, however it is NOT genetic.

Generalised demodex can be genetic, however I'm sure that if one of the parents had it, you would have seen the very obvious hairloss? (often many large patches)

Low immunity can be from diet/stress/environment, its not related to genetics. I'm not sure any breeder would risk breeding a bitch with a low immune system?

The dog did not die from demodex, but from hemorrhagic gastroenteritis-a diasease with an UNKNOWN cause that any dog can get.

If you want to contact another dobe breeder, the issues to worry about are cardio, vwd, hypothyroidism.

[sas]

Low immunity can be from diet/stress/environment, its not related to genetics. I'm not sure any breeder would risk breeding a bitch with a low immune system?

Immune systems that work incorrectly are definately able to be passed on by the parents or from that line, it's well documented.

You use the word 'low', however this may not be the right word, the immune system could have been over-active.

Dogs fed on Pal and other super market brands all their life don't all end up with immune problems, in-fact many of them live very long healthy lines.

Can you be more specific about environmental immune problems?

Edited September 18, 2010 by sas

[aussielover]

there are 2 types of demodex- generalised and localised. ALL dogs have the demodex mite. localised demodex can appear at a young age due to hormonal inbalances/stress, however it is NOT genetic.

Generalised demodex can be genetic, however I'm sure that if one of the parents had it, you would have seen the very obvious hairloss? (often many large patches)

Low immunity can be from diet/stress/environment, its not related to genetics. I'm not sure any breeder would risk breeding a bitch with a low immune system?

The dog did not die from demodex, but from hemorrhagic gastroenteritis-a diasease with an UNKNOWN cause that any dog can get.

If you want to contact another dobe breeder, the issues to worry about are cardio, vwd, hypothyroidism.

I'd like to know where you are getting your info from?

[africandreams]

I used the phrase 'low immunity' as that is what the topic starter used. Yes the immune system can be over active ie immune mediated response....

I have been to several dermatology seminars held by specialists- thats where i get my info about demodex.

I have been involved in dobes many years and never known 'low immunity' to be an issue in the breed.

[Doberwatch]

Oh Dobermum thats terrible ... Vic eh ... probably is who I'm thinking of then and if it is I'm not surprised you're getting the treatment you are about your beloved dobe. Is it a large very well known kennel that also has at least one other popular working breed? As for health, not much chance unless you start tracking people who own dogs from that kennel or breeding.

Yup demodex takes hold because the immune system cannot fight it. It's genetic despite what some breeders want to tell you and those dogs usually have immune problems for life (unless it's simple demodex due to hormone fluctuations during maturation) If the parents are throwing a pup like this then at least one of them should be out of hte breeding program.

You can try the Specialist Canine forum, there are many working dog people on there who may own dogs from that kennel or know of people who do. Or know the breeder.

HGE may not be a genetic disease but the difficulty to help dogs with these symptoms, and parvo/corona, stems from weak immune systems. The 'black and tans' like rotties being known to get it easier and longer. My own rottie has an absolutely abysmal immune system, 3+ weeks with parvo, all manner of immune mediated problems and it's never ending. Thankfully Demodex was one thing we never had.

Nekhbet,

You are obviously thinking of another breeder, the kennel i dealt with is solely a Dobe breeder. Anyway, as much as i'd love to name and bag this breeder and warn other potential buyers, i've chosen not to for the time being.

It's pretty hard to get info through another forum or people in person without naming the kennel. My thoughts of this breeder are far from nice and i don't want to offend anyone who may know him or have had a good experience in the past.