Kuma Doesn't Like Our Visitor

[KumaAkita]

K9: You probably are over the house guest and whilst him leaving may remove the problem, I would be asking why your dog is dictating who can live in your home.

I think your management must be very good or this could have turned disasterous.

If you werent at all bothered by him staying there when he first arrived but your dog was aggressive toward him, I think this rules out your influence.

Given the time span, I would lean away from the dog being fearful of him and suggest there are probably some rank issues there.

I really think you should seriously think about getting some help, I will wage that there will be other areas of concern also.

A large dog displaying aggression can be very dangerous.

Thanks K9 - all was rosy until a few weeks in. I think you could be right about the rank issue.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: You probably are over the house guest and whilst him leaving may remove the problem, I would be asking why your dog is dictating who can live in your home.

I think your management must be very good or this could have turned disasterous.

If you werent at all bothered by him staying there when he first arrived but your dog was aggressive toward him, I think this rules out your influence.

Given the time span, I would lean away from the dog being fearful of him and suggest there are probably some rank issues there.

I really think you should seriously think about getting some help, I will wage that there will be other areas of concern also.

A large dog displaying aggression can be very dangerous.

Thanks K9 - all was rosy until a few weeks in. I think you could be right about the rank issue.

K9: No worries your welcome, dogs that have some Rank drive usually dont display this until they have assessed the situation, worked out the rank value of the other party and then they make their move.

So it is quite common for them to not display these traits in every day life, but when they do start to display them, it often continues to elevate until they derank the target, often by an attack requiring submission.

The problem is that, these traits likely live under the surface of this dog and when something changes, they explode.

[aussielover]

K9: So do you mean that even if Dupree is removed, the rank drive in Kuma has been triggered and he may start to challenge his owners?

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: So do you mean that even if Dupree is removed, the rank drive in Kuma has been triggered and he may start to challenge his owners?

K9: I guess I wasnt trying to make it that obvious and keep teh focus on the problem at hand now but yes.

These behaviours have been learned and reinforced, I would bet this wont be the last time they see them, with or without Dupree.

They may not show up in normal every day life, but say they had a Niece of Nephew stay over that Kuma doesnt know, it wont take 2 weeks for the behaviour to develop again. The development period will become shorter and shorter.

A baby being born into the house, a tradesman coming to do work, the dog having to be held to have medication such as ear drops applied, clipping his nails, fitting a collar etc.

All of these things could instantly trigger what has been learned over the past 6 weeks...

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

K9: So do you mean that even if Dupree is removed, the rank drive in Kuma has been triggered and he may start to challenge his owners?

K9: I guess I wasnt trying to make it that obvious and keep teh focus on the problem at hand now but yes.

These behaviours have been learned and reinforced, I would bet this wont be the last time they see them, with or without Dupree.

They may not show up in normal every day life, but say they had a Niece of Nephew stay over that Kuma doesnt know, it wont take 2 weeks for the behaviour to develop again. The development period will become shorter and shorter.

A baby being born into the house, a tradesman coming to do work, the dog having to be held to have medication such as ear drops applied, clipping his nails, fitting a collar etc.

All of these things could instantly trigger what has been learned over the past 6 weeks...

that was my concern, removing dupree wont fix this and it could surface again without much warning.

[aussielover]

Thanks K9, great explanation and insight as usual :D.

I would be definitely be seeking help from a behaviourist then!

[KumaAkita]

K9: Have PM'd you.

[poodlefan]

K9: Have PM'd you.

Very wise move. :D

[siks3]

I would simply back tie the dog have a leash fastened to something in the house and when the dog misbehaves put him on the lead to restrict his freedom after a few minutes let him off then if he misbehaves it's back on the lead the dog will soon leave him alone after a few tries.

[Steve K9Pro]

I would simply back tie the dog have a leash fastened to something in the house and when the dog misbehaves put him on the lead to restrict his freedom after a few minutes let him off then if he misbehaves it's back on the lead the dog will soon leave him alone after a few tries.

K9: well you could do that but often this type of aggression is increased by barriers and restraint.

[siks3]

I would simply back tie the dog have a leash fastened to something in the house and when the dog misbehaves put him on the lead to restrict his freedom after a few minutes let him off then if he misbehaves it's back on the lead the dog will soon leave him alone after a few tries.

K9: well you could do that but often this type of aggression is increased by barriers and restraint.

From my understanding of owning akitas it is a dominance issue and the owner stated there is now teeth baring it's just nipping and it is exactly what mine used to do with my nine year old son after a few times me back tying him then my son started to do it while highly supervised and me next to him with another lead conected to a prong collar to correct unwanted nipping the problem was solved in no time.

[poodlefan]

I would simply back tie the dog have a leash fastened to something in the house and when the dog misbehaves put him on the lead to restrict his freedom after a few minutes let him off then if he misbehaves it's back on the lead the dog will soon leave him alone after a few tries.

K9: well you could do that but often this type of aggression is increased by barriers and restraint.

From my understanding of owning akitas it is a dominance issue and the owner stated there is now teeth baring it's just nipping and it is exactly what mine used to do with my nine year old son after a few times me back tying him then my son started to do it while highly supervised and me next to him with another lead conected to a prong collar to correct unwanted nipping the problem was solved in no time.

That's probably about the scariest thing I've read here for many months.

[siks3]

I would simply back tie the dog have a leash fastened to something in the house and when the dog misbehaves put him on the lead to restrict his freedom after a few minutes let him off then if he misbehaves it's back on the lead the dog will soon leave him alone after a few tries.

K9: well you could do that but often this type of aggression is increased by barriers and restraint.

From my understanding of owning akitas it is a dominance issue and the owner stated there is now teeth baring it's just nipping and it is exactly what mine used to do with my nine year old son after a few times me back tying him then my son started to do it while highly supervised and me next to him with another lead conected to a prong collar to correct unwanted nipping the problem was solved in no time.

That's probably about the scariest thing I've read here for many months.

Whats scary about it the dog was confused on where he stood against my son for rank (use to nip him on the legs and heels) the prong collar corrected it so what it wasn't all out aggression or I would have tackled the issue differently.

My son and dog have a great relationship now there is no issues with dominance and the dog listens to his commands. Problem solved

[Christina]

Bit late now I suppose but what about your visitor feeding & walking your dog & dishing out the orders.

Probably too scared by now.

I would also be worried that now your dog has started this he may continue in this behaviour. Big dog, not good.

[poodlefan]

Whats scary about it the dog was confused on where he stood against my son for rank (use to nip him on the legs and heels) the prong collar corrected it so what it wasn't all out aggression or I would have tackled the issue differently.

My son and dog have a great relationship now there is no issues with dominance and the dog listens to his commands. Problem solved

What's scarey is at least that your dog might have reacted quite differently and your son would have been right in the firing line. You found out it wasn't "all out aggression" by taking the dog on. Some dogs are more than prepared to defend their perceived higher rank. I'm bloody glad your dog wasn't one of them.

And its very scarey that you'd take your success based on one dog and transfer your method to another dog that you've never laid eyes on. The OP's dog isn't pushing around a 9 year old. He's doing it to a grown man.

Edited September 16, 2010 by poodlefan

[Steve K9Pro]

From my understanding of owning akitas it is a dominance issue

K9: I really dont like to link temperament traits and behaviours to breeds, it is a pretty inaccurate way of working through behaviour problems and also fuels those people who believe in BSL.

and the owner stated there is now teeth baring it's just nipping and it is exactly what mine used to do with my nine year old son after a few times me back tying him then my son started to do it while highly supervised and me next to him with another lead conected to a prong collar to correct unwanted nipping the problem was solved in no time.

K9: I am really glad it worked for you, but one dog does not make a one sized fits all solution. It certainly could have turned out very differently and your son could have paid the price, still might down the track.

You really dont solve violence with violence, you at times can confirm its effectiveness.

[KumaAkita]

Bit late now I suppose but what about your visitor feeding & walking your dog & dishing out the orders.

Probably too scared by now.

I would also be worried that now your dog has started this he may continue in this behaviour. Big dog, not good.

Whilst I do not deny that my dog has this rank issue, I need to question that "big dog, not good" thing. If he was a poodle, do you think it would be acceptable, just because it is a little dog? I put a lot of time and effort into training my dog because he is a big dog and have to face the prejudice associated with owning a giant breed. Ok, so a SWF would do less damage if aggression turned viscious, but that would not excuse the behaviour.

sorry - you hit a nerve there. I think all dogs are dogs. big, small, round, lanky... they are all dogs and need the same rules regardless of size.

I've had a great chat to K9Pro (thanks Steve!) and will be starting to implement a few new rules. I also spoke to OH earlier and the tribe has spoken - it's time to go Dupree.

Edited September 16, 2010 by KumaAkita

[poodlefan]

Bit late now I suppose but what about your visitor feeding & walking your dog & dishing out the orders.

Probably too scared by now.

I would also be worried that now your dog has started this he may continue in this behaviour. Big dog, not good.

Whilst I do not deny that my dog has this rank issue, I need to question that "big dog, not good" thing. If he was a poodle, do you think it would be acceptable, just because it is a little dog? I put a lot of time and effort into training my dog because he is a big dog and have to face the prejudice associated with owning a giant breed. Ok, so a SWF would do less damage if aggression turned viscious, but that would not excuse the behaviour.

I've had a great chat to K9Pro (thanks Steve!) and will be starting to implement a few new rules. I also spoke to OH earlier and the tribe has spoken - it's time to, Dupree.

Of course not. However a poodle is far less likely to see Dupree in intensive care should things take a turn for the worst. Size does matter when it comes to aggression - that's reality not prejudice. NO aggression is acceptable.

Dupree.

Edited September 16, 2010 by poodlefan

[corvus]

Isn't Kuma a bit under a year old? I'd be pretty concerned, because that's when they try things on and if it works it stays. I guess any time if something works it stays. Maybe I'm particularly wary of adolescence and social maturity stages for some reason.

It's hard when people don't behave around your dog the way you want them to. When I leave Erik with my parents they get a lecture about all the things he is expected to sit or down for. They are pretty good anyway, but he's so exploitative. If I don't stay strict with the rules he will break them to get what he wants or get it quicker. I would worry about leaving him with anyone that wasn't dog savvy. When I was looking into Akitas before I got Kivi I didn't really want a dog that would need me to be strict with the rules. It sounded too regimental for my personality. But I actually find it quite rewarding living with Erik. He's pretty well behaved because I insist on it, and the only reason I insist on it is because I have to. He tries to trick me and I try to stay one step ahead of him. As long as we both think we are winning we get on famously.

Seeing as Dupree isn't helping much, I would keep Kuma on leash around him while you're waiting to get some professional help. At least then he's not practising behaviour you don't want him doing.

[KumaAkita]

Corvus: Yep, Kuma is 10 months old. Steve also mentioned that it could be due to a "fear period" - and that also triggered a memory of some weird fear behaviour in the recent weeks. So, this could be a culmination of a number of things.

I find living with Kuma rewarding. I have really enjoyed teaching him things and look forward to watching him grow and mature. He is a lovely sweet natured dog. It's funny, he lets us know if we're not being consistent, and it snaps us back into being on the money each and every time.