Pinch Collars

[huski]

Geez - I am really having a hard time taking in all the food lure training. I can think of nothing worse than having to continually have food on you in order to ensure your dog follows your directions. After suffering thru structured classes (that insisted on food and toy training only) with a high drive/dominant pup that was not interested in either rewards in a class situation, I have returned to the choke chain method with probably 95% accuracy. We are still a work in progress but what we have achieved in 3 weeks I struggled to achieve in 9 months using purely positive methods. Only wish we had K9 training in Perth.

Shelle - your video reduced me to tears - what a fantastic result

Skye I'm curious, you say your dog is high drive but is not interested in rewards, what do you do to use the drive the dog has?

I train in food drive which means if I want the level of drive and reliability I desire I need to have food so I can reward with it, but obviously my dog can work without seeing food or without me luring her at all otherwise we couldn't compete in obedience.

Training my dog on a check chain did nothing except teach her to switch off in training... there is a huge difference between food exchange and actually getting a dog to work in food drive. There is no way I could have gotten the level of reliability/drive I can now get out of my dog using 'the choke chain method' and not using drive.

even changes in handlers persona can have a great effect....

Sounds familiar :D

Edited September 15, 2010 by huski

[ness]

huski I was going to say the same re that last comment on handler's persona having an impact although sometimes it seems what compromises the trigger is something so small and seemingly insignificant that its impossible to nail down. Sometimes you just wish you could ask the dog what the hell is different between two seemingly similar scenarios - one where the dog shows drive, one where the dog melts down and won't go into drive.

In the absence of being able to ask the dog it just does your head in trying to sort it out.

Edited September 15, 2010 by ness

[huski]

huski I was going to say the same re that last comment on handler's persona having an impact although sometimes it seems what compromises the trigger is something oh so small an inconsequential that its impossible to nail down.

Or it can be something big and glaringly obvious, like the way the handler freaks out just before going into the ring and makes all kinds of silly handling mistakes that compromise the trigger. And is visibly shaking when the judge tries to shake their hand. Not that I ever do any of those things.

:D

[ness]

huski - you'll get there. The way I am feeling at the moment I would happily trade glaringly obvious for no bloody idea. Well no I lie I have a suspicion but thats as far as it goes.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Both of you are doing very well

[huski]

K9: Both of you are doing very well

I may be biased, but I think my dog is pretty awesome :D Could be awesome-er if her handle could get herself together on a more reliable basis though :laugh: I think I am going to start taking large quantities of wine to trials

Edited September 15, 2010 by huski

[ness]

Huski one bit of advice for not freaking out in the ring - work each and every round as though it will be your last and you fast learn not to stress out quite so much. Well least that is what I am finding now when I take Ness into the ring. We enjoy every minute of our time in there and whatever will be will be. Its a hobby after all and no sheep stations involved (well unless its the interclub challenge and you walk out with 3 nice big trophies because you weren't really playing for sheep stations and the old girl just happened to come through for you ).

Edited September 15, 2010 by ness

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Or if her trainer was in the same state lol

[huski]

Huski one bit of advice for not freaking out in the ring - work each and every round as though it will be your last and you fast learn not to stress out quite so much. Well least that is what I am finding now when I take Ness into the ring. We enjoy every minute of our time in there and whatever will be will be. Its a hobby after all and no sheep stations involved (well unless its the interclub challenge and you walk out with 3 nice bit trophies because you weren't really playing for sheep stations and the old girl came through for you ).

Ness is a clever girl

I like my wine idea ETA: At least if I was drunk I'd have an excuse for not walking in a straight line :D

Edited September 15, 2010 by huski

[huski]

K9: Or if her trainer was in the same state lol

LOL Steve! Just clone yourself. Problem solved. hehe

Edited September 15, 2010 by huski

[ness]

Daisy is awesome Kenz is just complicated but thats a working dog for you . Yes Ness is an absolute superstar - pity Kenz keeps trying to claim the trophies from last weekend. Told her she has to earn her own and thinking she knows better on the agility course isn't the way you win some.

Hmmm a Steve clone now thats a scary thought.

Edited September 15, 2010 by ness

[huski]

Daisy is awesome Kenz is just complicated but thats a working dog for you . Yes Ness is an absolute superstar - pity Kenz keeps trying to claim the trophies from last weekend. Told her she has to earn her own and thinking she knows better on the agility course isn't the way you win some.

Hmmm a Steve clone now thats a scary thought.

Daisy only has one trophy so far (ok, one trophy and a plaque), but she looks less than impressed with it in the pic I have of her sitting next to it :D Probably because it's only third place (and no quallie - had she got the quallie, it would have been a first place, bloody dogs)

Edited September 15, 2010 by huski

[ness]

The trophies Kenz wants to steal -

Edited September 15, 2010 by ness

[huski]

That trophy is ridiculously massive!

This is so not the direction I imagined this thread turning

[ness]

Yeah maybe I should apologize for gate crashing it

Edited September 15, 2010 by ness

[OSoSwift]

Aidan

He sees the dog, click, treat. He looks again, perhaps a little curious, click, treat; and so on. No cues are used, we're just capturing something a "normal" dog would do - look at another dog without having a hissy fit. Learning has a direction, and outward behaviours influence internal behaviours, so we're heading remarkably quickly towards a calm dog while we do this.

Yes I have trained this also in dogs that are either dog agressive or extremely timid and strike out to get in first.

I call it my "cookie dog" exercise. The calmer the dog is the more rewards it gets. If it chooses to make a small step towards the object of it's passion it gets a reward until the previous object of rage or whatever, becomes an object of desire ( obviously you do not allow a DA dog to get close enough to another dog to be in striking range). The dog chooses to want to be closer to get their reward. Obviously you need to find out what that reward is. It could be anything - not just food. It can take a long time to get there but over time you can.

That is to me different to focus on me.

My dogs are always trained that yes other dogs, birds, sheep, horses, cats, cows are around but they are taught to pay them no heed. When I go to training my dogs do not play. They are not there to play they are there to work. If I wanted them to play I would take them to a play date. Over time the other dogs being there is neither here nor there, so they take no notice of them as they don't when we do happen to walk around town which isn't very often.

[malsrock]

Geez - I am really having a hard time taking in all the food lure training. I can think of nothing worse than having to continually have food on you in order to ensure your dog follows your directions. After suffering thru structured classes (that insisted on food and toy training only) with a high drive/dominant pup that was not interested in either rewards in a class situation, I have returned to the choke chain method with probably 95% accuracy. We are still a work in progress but what we have achieved in 3 weeks I struggled to achieve in 9 months using purely positive methods. Only wish we had K9 training in Perth.

Shelle - your video reduced me to tears - what a fantastic result

Skye I'm curious, you say your dog is high drive but is not interested in rewards, what do you do to use the drive the dog has?

I train in food drive which means if I want the level of drive and reliability I desire I need to have food so I can reward with it, but obviously my dog can work without seeing food or without me luring her at all otherwise we couldn't compete in obedience.

Training my dog on a check chain did nothing except teach her to switch off in training... there is a huge difference between food exchange and actually getting a dog to work in food drive. There is no way I could have gotten the level of reliability/drive I can now get out of my dog using 'the choke chain method' and not using drive.

even changes in handlers persona can have a great effect....

Sounds familiar

Huski, some dogs have drive in unworkable areas, like drive to bite the postman or chase skateboards I think someone mentioned earlier. You can't very well use the postman as the reward to train in drive as silly as it sounds :D My Mal has incredible toy and ball motivation that seems endless, but my GSD didn't to that degree, so it depends on what motivates the dog and if food and toys doesn't, it's much harder to train in drive than with dogs who genetically go nuts over it unless you have conditioned the dog to it as an ongoing process I think.

Fiona

[Skye GSD]

Huski: should have clarified that I also have a reactive pup and once in reactive mode she will not accept food or toys in a class situation. In order to overcome this I have had to revert to the coke chain method and have had a huge improvement in her attention span. If she acts up, there is a consequence and as soon as the attention is returned to me she gets the reward. Having gone through puppy class/beginners in a club scene and two trainers who train in small classes, we spent more time outside the training area than in it as Skye was so reactive/disruptive. She believes she was put on this earth to play and waving food & toys in front of her in the reactive mode, I may as well have stood on my head.

I am not saying that my dog never gets rewards - at home she is trained with food and toys and her obedience level never ceases to amaze me but we cannot display this with other dogs around as the attention span is not there. Since using the choke chain on our daily walks she has improved out of sight and where I was only managing the inattention before we are now conditioning the response so she can see the food treat.

My initial reaction to this thread was that not all dogs can be mellow and food orientated - we that have the reactive dogs have to often use a tougher approach to get the desired behaviour.

[bedazzledx2]

You need to fade the reward and even get to the point where you can use a remote reward for the behaviour to become reliable. Many people don't realize that clicker and positive training requires you to raise the bar to the point of the dog performing the actions without a hint of a reward in sight. My interests are in high level competition performance where you cannot reward (with food or toy) between exercises and there may be up to 8 or more exercises with multiple behaviours in each in the UD ring. Therefore good training must have good foundations and attention to detail and duration under distraction. Not as easy as just waving a piece of food in the dog's face!!!! The dog learns that reward is contingent on performing the behaviour which you have taught carefully by splitting, not lumping and then proofing to performance level.

A terrific side effect is that all of these behaviours bleed into normal life and because they are so well taught and proofed, we have dogs that comply with a level of joy because they have been taught without the need for adversives. If my dog doesn't do what I ask (cue) then I look to my training.

Rehabilitating a dog gone wrong is a whole different argument and not one I will enter into but teaching a dog from scratch is all about good teaching and foundations.

'bedazzledx2' date='15th Sep 2010 - 02:51 PM' post='4814411']

The reliability is there if you train it right....can be done with a clicker.

Taking into account that my training background is aversive methods, so I am relatively new to positive reinforcement methods and I have never used a clicker, my 12 months old Malinois has terrible sits without a reward. His sits are perfect with a toy or food reward to follow and without, I get one maybe two sits, in other words unless he sees what's on offer, he won't work for free

Disobeying a known command like he does, I would have in the past administered a leash correction, I can train the behaviour I need, but without using an aversive which he has never experienced to date, where do I go from here, how do I fix it without an aversive to get a reliable sit without a reward on offer:confused:

Fiona :D

[Staranais]

Taking into account that my training background is aversive methods, so I am relatively new to positive reinforcement methods and I have never used a clicker, my 12 months old Malinois has terrible sits without a reward. His sits are perfect with a toy or food reward to follow and without, I get one maybe two sits, in other words unless he sees what's on offer, he won't work for free

Disobeying a known command like he does, I would have in the past administered a leash correction, I can train the behaviour I need, but without using an aversive which he has never experienced to date, where do I go from here, how do I fix it without an aversive to get a reliable sit without a reward on offer:confused:

Fiona :D

What are you trying to achieve with the dog, Fiona? Will you be competing or working in a particular discipline? I train round the house obedience rather differently to how I train competition/work stuff, although as Bedazzled says there is always some bleed through (if you reward the competition stuff heaps, the dogs are keener to do the same behaviours around the house even if they know no reward is likely to be forthcoming).