Pinch Collars

[Erny]

Hope it's not rude to comment without reading ALL 13 pages here.

I've been in California for the last 6 mo where pinch collars are everywhere. The local feed store has two types of collars . . . flat and pinch/prong. I have seen half a dozen pit bulls in people's front yards with the pinch/prong collar on . . . and I don't spend that much time in town. My neighbour, who does Schutz with her GSD's, routinely uses one. I've been playing around on Google to try and find stories about prong collars doing damage and come up, almost entirely, with people who are in favour of their use. I used one on my own dogs a couple years back . . . to reduce pulling. They understood instantly with the prong collar. Still enthusiastic about the walk. No avoidance of the collar at all. And after about two weeks we went back to the Martingale . . . but got no pulling.

http://www.8pawsup.com/articles/training/prongcollars.html

gives some evidence that they're much much less likely to damage a dog than choke chains. The people out to bust myths had a go at the Anna Marie Silverton advice, which apparently quotes a hard-to-find (non-existent?) German study. However, people chiming in on the conversation seem to confirm that choking is much worse for the dog than pinching.

Yeah - it is a real shame and also a fraud and nothing to do with animal welfare that they were banned in Victoria.

What got me was in a letter to all MP's (Australia Wide) on behalf of the Association of Pet Dog Trainers it was written :

It is not surprising that a report on humane dog training did not support the use of prong collars for walking or training dogs (1).

Reference "(1)" (which was the only reference) was actually a booklet put out by the American Humane Association "Guide to Humane Dog Training". In that booklet it actually says (of prong collars) :

"Conditionally recommended as a humane training restraint ... "

ETA: Hope you're enjoying California, Sandgrubber.

Edited September 18, 2010 by Erny

[huski]

Erny I am constantly perplexed by the way the Victorian government banned prong collars with no real supporting evidence.

[Erny]

Erny I am constantly perplexed by the way the Victorian government banned prong collars with no real supporting evidence.

Even more perplexing is their very own admission that they have no supporting evidence (not only that - but that they admit there IS NONE), yet their continued stance and refusal to re-address and turn the law on the basis that its passing breaches the laws of Procedural Fairness and Natural Justice.

It is sheer arrogance and it can only lead one to think that there is another different agenda that is shared by the RSPCA (who proposed and pushed the ban in the first place) and the Labor Government, that is not necessarily related to animal welfare.

Edited September 18, 2010 by Erny

[Nekhbet]

Remember Erny if the RSPCA says it they MUST be right, cos they know everything about everything O_o

[Erny]

Remember Erny if the RSPCA says it they MUST be right, cos they know everything about everything O_o

Oh gosh. I'd forgotten that. How very dare I.

[Nekhbet]

exactly. Now you know better

they're such a FAIL sometimes it's enough to make you cry

[siks3]

Pffft RSPCA. My father use to run the local pound for the RSPCA in Burnie Tasmania about 20 years ago and he left because he no longer had the heart to give unwanted dogs and cats a bowl of food and a .22 bullet in the back of the head. He made the change over from the chloroform he use to knock the animals out with to the bowl of food so they had the luxury of a bowl of food in there belly and he didn't have to stress them out holding the rag over there face.

All because they didn't want to spend the money on the injection and they get there knickers in a twist over a prong collar.

The RSPCA does great work but they aren't perfect.

[Erny]

exactly. Now you know better

they're such a FAIL sometimes it's enough to make you cry

It's a BAD law when you realise you stand to abide by the law (which we must) OR give priority to what we know would be in the best interests of the dog. There should be no "OR" in it. And yes, the unfairness of this HAS been enough to make me cry at times.

[Nekhbet]

It's a BAD law when you realise you stand to abide by the law (which we must) OR give priority to what we know would be in the best interests of the dog. There should be no "OR" in it. And yes, the unfairness of this HAS been enough to make me cry at times.

[Dogs Are Forever]

Excellent post, and a bit OT, but LOVE the photo. Hugs to Zero!

ETA: Meant my comment about the pic was a bit OT, not the post, lol...

I have used one - they're not illegal in Australia, but they are in Victoria (I'm not sure about other states - they're legal in NSW).

I rescued my dog at 2.5 years old. He was fearful of everything (he has a very sad back story from before I got him ) - I couldn't go near him. We worked on his fears but when we started being able to go for walks, he would react with extreme aggresion whenever we saw a dog. It got to the point where he would slink around corners, just in case there was a dog around there. On day he even went around a corner and tried to attack his own shadow because he was so on edge about other dogs.

I took him out to see 4 trainer, 3 of them purely positive trainers/behaviourists and every one of them said I shold put him to sleep because I'd never be able to cure him and he was a danger and a menace to other dogs. A few more trainers wouldn't even see us. Then I took him out to see K9 Pro, who assessed him and recommended we try a Prong collar (a pinch collar). Within 6 weeks (by now, zero was 4 years old and i'd been dealing with his problems for 18 months), Zero was able to be around other dogs. For the first time ever, instead of trying to deal with everything himself, if there was a problem, he would look to me. That's what we taught him with the prong collar. There were no harsh corrections, he was given the choice to either walk away with me or to pull on his collar. He chose to follow me. He has never felt the full force of the collar - he wags his tail and gets excited when he sees it because it means we're going out somewhere fun. I would rather have used it on him and had him get better sooner rather than go through all the purely positive stuff we did that did nothing.

Do i think that all dogs should use one? No, they should only be used under the supervision of a properly qualified behaviourist. I don't use mine anymore and would happily give it back to Steve but Zero's collar was never supposed to be used forever - it is a training tool, not a cure all. He acts the same on his flat collar now (and it's a ruthless leather one so I want him to show it off!) so I haven't used his prong in over a year.

This is him now (taken on australia day this year by terranik):

I'm not going to get into the politics of the collar but quite frankly, it saved Zero's life. I would never have put him to sleep but what that collar did in 6 weeks, no other training tool did in 18 months. Zero lived in constant fear and now he's one of the most happy dogs you'll ever meet. I can't thank Steve at k9 Pro enough for that!

Here's a video terranik made about Z and I - it makes me cry to watch it.

http://www.youtube.com/user/TerraNik#p/u/18/Y6F7eQyXJkY

Troll or not, I'm happy to tell people I've used one. I had a lot of s*** thrown at me in the past about it and I think the results speak for themselves. Attack away!

Edited September 18, 2010 by jilldog

[Erny]

Pffft RSPCA. My father use to run the local pound for the RSPCA in Burnie Tasmania about 20 years ago and he left because he no longer had the heart to give unwanted dogs and cats a bowl of food and a .22 bullet in the back of the head. He made the change over from the chloroform he use to knock the animals out with to the bowl of food so they had the luxury of a bowl of food in there belly and he didn't have to stress them out holding the rag over there face.

All because they didn't want to spend the money on the injection and they get there knickers in a twist over a prong collar.

The RSPCA does great work but they aren't perfect.

Oh . That's really really sad. On more than one level. I feel very much for those animals, just as your Dad would have. But I feel also for your Dad, who lives with those memories. It would be bad enough having to live with memories of any of what the RSPCA and other shelter workers must do when the animals in their care aren't homed. But to live with those memories knowing there was a better way but it wasn't permitted for financial reasons must be awful and I hope they don't plague your Dad too much as this would not have been his fault.

[siks3]

Pffft RSPCA. My father use to run the local pound for the RSPCA in Burnie Tasmania about 20 years ago and he left because he no longer had the heart to give unwanted dogs and cats a bowl of food and a .22 bullet in the back of the head. He made the change over from the chloroform he use to knock the animals out with to the bowl of food so they had the luxury of a bowl of food in there belly and he didn't have to stress them out holding the rag over there face.

All because they didn't want to spend the money on the injection and they get there knickers in a twist over a prong collar.

The RSPCA does great work but they aren't perfect.

Oh :D. That's really really sad. On more than one level. I feel very much for those animals, just as your Dad would have. But I feel also for your Dad, who lives with those memories. It would be bad enough having to live with memories of any of what the RSPCA and other shelter workers must do when the animals in their care aren't homed. But to live with those memories knowing there was a better way but it wasn't permitted for financial reasons must be awful and I hope they don't plague your Dad too much as this would not have been his fault.

My dad still gets a bit chocked up when he talks about it.

He worked with a lot of animals and use to train with a prong collar years ago and he trained a lot unruly dogs with it and a lot of those dogs got re homed.

Go figure that the person that helped outlaw there use in Victoria has no real insight on there effectiveness and being more politicly correct has more importance then the dogs welfare.

They are a tool to get the dogs focus they are not a punishment.

When they are used with positive training they are a great tool on some dogs

Edited September 18, 2010 by siks3

[Erny]

When they are used with positive training they are a great tool on some dogs

I am inclined to think they are a great tool on many dogs. By that I mean that I would prefer to replace every single check chain and head collar with a PPCollar. Save that there are a few (not many, though) dogs who "back in the good ol' days" when we were permitted the use of this tool, were a bit too sensitive for them and would bounce into its correction and then bounce again as a result of that bounce. Those dogs were usually well enough suited to a martingale or even a flat collar. IMO the PPCollar is kinder to the dog not only in terms of learning clarity but also in terms of the physical effect of the PPCollar - which, when applied, works at skin level - whereas others work (intentionally or otherwise) on skin, muscle and skeletal.

And I agree with the "positive training". Nekhbet I think has also already said it in this thread. IE That in all good training there is positive reinforcement.

Edited September 18, 2010 by Erny