Pinch Collars

[huski]

Huski, some dogs have drive in unworkable areas, like drive to bite the postman or chase skateboards I think someone mentioned earlier. You can't very well use the postman as the reward to train in drive as silly as it sounds My Mal has incredible toy and ball motivation that seems endless, but my GSD didn't to that degree, so it depends on what motivates the dog and if food and toys doesn't, it's much harder to train in drive than with dogs who genetically go nuts over it unless you have conditioned the dog to it as an ongoing process I think.

Malsrock, there is no drive to chase skateboards or bite postmen, that's usually prey drive, and the dog has learnt those actions satisfy its drive. My dog has a pretty considerable scent drive, but I learnt to harness it and use it in another outlet (food drive).

Huski: should have clarified that I also have a reactive pup and once in reactive mode she will not accept food or toys in a class situation. In order to overcome this I have had to revert to the coke chain method and have had a huge improvement in her attention span. If she acts up, there is a consequence and as soon as the attention is returned to me she gets the reward. Having gone through puppy class/beginners in a club scene and two trainers who train in small classes, we spent more time outside the training area than in it as Skye was so reactive/disruptive. She believes she was put on this earth to play and waving food & toys in front of her in the reactive mode, I may as well have stood on my head.

I am not saying that my dog never gets rewards - at home she is trained with food and toys and her obedience level never ceases to amaze me but we cannot display this with other dogs around as the attention span is not there. Since using the choke chain on our daily walks she has improved out of sight and where I was only managing the inattention before we are now conditioning the response so she can see the food treat.

My initial reaction to this thread was that not all dogs can be mellow and food orientated - we that have the reactive dogs have to often use a tougher approach to get the desired behaviour.

My dog used to be almost completely unresponsive to me in class settings. It's not uncommon that a dog will be drivey for food/toys at home but not in higher levels of distraction. My dog is far from mellow and I used to be able to shove steak under her nose and she wouldn't even notice it was there. I now work her reliably and successfully in food drive. Correcting her for scenting only taught her two things:

1) That switching off in training and ignoring me in favour of scenting was more rewarding than anything I had to offer (so the best way to satisfy her drive was to scent)

2) I would punish her for going into drive, which took a fair bit of work to undo when I wanted to start training her IN drive

I can work her in food drive around just about any level of distraction, reliably, it doesn't matter if there are fifty dogs around us doing classes, or very enticing scents on the ground, what I have is better than all of those things. Often higher drive dogs don't do well in class settings, because you are asking them to work out of drive. Teaching them not to go into drive by correcting them with any kind of collar or method is not how I would prefer to train them, because I don't think it gives the best result or reliability, but that's JMO

Also... rewarding with toys and food are different to working in prey or food drive.

Edited September 15, 2010 by huski

[Kavik]

Also, if you are getting good results at home but not class with a reward, maybe you need to condition it better - I really have found clicker work to make a huge difference and they pay much more attention than if you just wave a piece of food under their nose because they have learned how to think and learn and to choose the right option for the reward. Again like with the variations of LAT it is not about distracting the dog with food/waving food under their nose to get them to do an action.

I don't think you can get this result with a check chain

Most of those behaviours would be shaped

[aussielover]

I have to say it is pretty hard to get my dog to ignore other dogs when there are so many idiots around who either have their dog off leash under no control or purposely walk their dog up to mine to say "hello" even though I tell them I am trying to train her to ignore other dogs.

Then they go on about how she will become aggressive etc if I don't let her socialise...

I can only imgaine how bad it must be for people who have hyper or DA dogs

[Staranais]

Huski, some dogs have drive in unworkable areas, like drive to bite the postman or chase skateboards I think someone mentioned earlier. You can't very well use the postman as the reward to train in drive as silly as it sounds :D My Mal has incredible toy and ball motivation that seems endless, but my GSD didn't to that degree, so it depends on what motivates the dog and if food and toys doesn't, it's much harder to train in drive than with dogs who genetically go nuts over it unless you have conditioned the dog to it as an ongoing process I think.

Malsrock, there is no drive to chase skateboards or bite postmen, that's usually prey drive, and the dog has learnt those actions satisfy its drive. My dog has a pretty considerable scent drive, but I learnt to harness it and use it in another outlet (food drive).

I've got to say I agree with that. When I first bought my little girl home, she wanted to chase and bite just about anything that moved - kids on skateboards, people on bikes or scooters, flapping trousers or coats, anything that made a rustling noise, any people that were silly enough to just wave their arms or move quickly around her, everything was prey & got chased. With time & training, she's learned that most of these things just aren't acceptable or aren't rewarding to chase & bite. It was all just prey drive, so she gets to satisfy that by biting her toy (these days, at the end of a track or after a recall).

A dog without drive, or who is too nervy or inhibited to express it, that's a different matter.

Huski, you should post some before & after video of Daisy working in drive (if you feel like sharing on a public forum), since the difference is pretty spectacular. ;)

[huski]

I've got to say I agree with that. When I first bought my little girl home, she wanted to chase and bite just about anything that moved - kids on skateboards, people on bikes or scooters, flapping trousers or coats, anything that made a rustling noise, any people that were silly enough to just wave their arms or move quickly around her, everything was prey & got chased. With time & training, she's learned that most of these things just aren't acceptable or aren't rewarding to chase & bite. It was all just prey drive, so she gets to satisfy that by biting her toy (these days, at the end of a track or after a recall).

A dog without drive, or who is too nervy or inhibited to express it, that's a different matter.

Huski, you should post some before & after video of Daisy working in drive (if you feel like sharing on a public forum), since the difference is pretty spectacular.

LOL SA! I don't know about spectacular, but there is certainly a visible difference in her. This is the only before vid I had, this was the best level of work I could get out of her, and this was in a very low distraction environment;

I wish I had a before vid that showed her at training and how bad she was there! Oh well!

After vid... I have a heap, but here's the most recent

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EirXW2xt52Q

Edited September 16, 2010 by huski

[Erny]

I have to say it is pretty hard to get my dog to ignore other dogs when there are so many idiots around who either have their dog off leash under no control or purposely walk their dog up to mine to say "hello" even though I tell them I am trying to train her to ignore other dogs.

I use one of these. Available from me (for us Victorians ) or from Steve, but instead of the "Service Dog" label, I have the "In Training" label.

I tell people "my dog is in training". They generally respect that, but with the harness on as well, I'm sure they think it is for something super special such as Assistance Dog; Law Enforcement Dog; or some other "official" engagement. An in awe "oooooh isn't he beautiful .... " accompanied with a bucket load of respect is not an uncommon response and generally has people biding your 'space' and 'leave us alone' wishes.

Mind you, all credibility towards my dog being "In Training" for any highfalutin job that they may have assumed is often blown when my dog dives (dragging me in his wake) to grab some interesting piece of garbage (especially loves milk shake cartons or used ice-cream cups) and struts (literally! you should see his strut!! lol) a good part of the way home with the cup either over the end of his nose or lower jaw ;) .

Edited September 16, 2010 by Erny

[malsrock]

Taking into account that my training background is aversive methods, so I am relatively new to positive reinforcement methods and I have never used a clicker, my 12 months old Malinois has terrible sits without a reward. His sits are perfect with a toy or food reward to follow and without, I get one maybe two sits, in other words unless he sees what's on offer, he won't work for free :D

Disobeying a known command like he does, I would have in the past administered a leash correction, I can train the behaviour I need, but without using an aversive which he has never experienced to date, where do I go from here, how do I fix it without an aversive to get a reliable sit without a reward on offer:confused:

Fiona

What are you trying to achieve with the dog, Fiona? Will you be competing or working in a particular discipline? I train round the house obedience rather differently to how I train competition/work stuff, although as Bedazzled says there is always some bleed through (if you reward the competition stuff heaps, the dogs are keener to do the same behaviours around the house even if they know no reward is likely to be forthcoming).

We have been doing foundation training for Schutzhund, drive building, tug work and he's doing quite well. It wasn't until we went for a casual walk and had no toys or food with me, reached the corner of the street and commanded sit.........he just stood there and I was actually quite shocked ..........his sits are lightning when focused on the tug or a ball I held a clenched fist in front of his nose as if I was concealing a reward and he sat. The next corner, same thing, just stood there, did the fake concealment............nup, he wasn't falling for that one again, no reward, I am not sitting

Fiona

Edited September 16, 2010 by malsrock

[Staranais]

We have been doing foundation training for Schutzhund, drive building, tug work and he's doing quite well. It wasn't until we went for a casual walk and had no toys or food with me, reached the corner of the street and commanded sit.........he just stood there and I was actually quite shocked ..........his sits are lightning when focused on the tug or a ball I held a clenched fist in front of his nose as if I was concealing a reward and he sat. The next corner, same thing, just stood there, did the fake concealment............nup, he wasn't falling for that one again, no reward, I am not sitting :D

Fiona

Well, I'm not expert, but it sounds to me like you're quite effectively training him not to sit on cue when you are walking him. Sounds to me like you were in a new environment (one where you don't normally ask for a sit), dog will be checking to see whether the old rules of reinforcement apply in this new environment, and when no reward happens, your smart dog will very quickly decide that it's not worth performing in this new environment. Ooops!

There are probably lots of ways to solve the issue. How I handle it is I try to keep training/performance separate from day to day commands. I think if you insist on the same level of performance from the dog all the time, you end up with a middling level of performance - too sloppy for competition, too intense for round the house. No dog can be in drive 100% of the time. But there is always a reward (or a punishment) of some type when I ask her to do something. Otherwise, why would she do it?

The one thing I would never do is take her to a new environment and not reward her for her obedience (or punish her for disobedience). I think that's teaching the opposite of what you want the dog to learn.

PS, Huski, I think they're spectacular. I have never seen such a focused beagle! :D

[huski]

Well, I'm not expert, but it sounds to me like you're quite effectively training him not to sit on cue when you are walking him. :D Sounds to me like you were in a new environment (one where you don't normally ask for a sit), dog will be checking to see whether the old rules of reinforcement apply in this new environment, and when no reward happens, your smart dog will very quickly decide that it's not worth performing in this new environment. Ooops!

There are probably lots of ways to solve the issue. How I handle it is I try to keep training/performance separate from day to day commands. I think if you insist on the same level of performance from the dog all the time, you end up with a middling level of performance - too sloppy for competition, too intense for round the house. No dog can be in drive 100% of the time. But there is always a reward (or a punishment) of some type when I ask her to do something. Otherwise, why would she do it?

The one thing I would never do is take her to a new environment and not reward her for her obedience (or punish her for disobedience). I think that's teaching the opposite of what you want the dog to learn.

Totally agree Especially with the final sentence.

Using separate commands for training and around the house is definitely something I will be doing with my next dog too. I also don't like when other people (i.e. family) use my obedience commands but stuff them up etc.

PS, Huski, I think they're spectacular. I have never seen such a focused beagle!

:laugh: Thanks :D

[malsrock]

We have been doing foundation training for Schutzhund, drive building, tug work and he's doing quite well. It wasn't until we went for a casual walk and had no toys or food with me, reached the corner of the street and commanded sit.........he just stood there and I was actually quite shocked ..........his sits are lightning when focused on the tug or a ball I held a clenched fist in front of his nose as if I was concealing a reward and he sat. The next corner, same thing, just stood there, did the fake concealment............nup, he wasn't falling for that one again, no reward, I am not sitting

Fiona

Well, I'm not expert, but it sounds to me like you're quite effectively training him not to sit on cue when you are walking him. ;) Sounds to me like you were in a new environment (one where you don't normally ask for a sit), dog will be checking to see whether the old rules of reinforcement apply in this new environment, and when no reward happens, your smart dog will very quickly decide that it's not worth performing in this new environment. Ooops!

There are probably lots of ways to solve the issue. How I handle it is I try to keep training/performance separate from day to day commands. I think if you insist on the same level of performance from the dog all the time, you end up with a middling level of performance - too sloppy for competition, too intense for round the house. No dog can be in drive 100% of the time. But there is always a reward (or a punishment) of some type when I ask her to do something. Otherwise, why would she do it?

The one thing I would never do is take her to a new environment and not reward her for her obedience (or punish her for disobedience). I think that's teaching the opposite of what you want the dog to learn.

PS, Huski, I think they're spectacular. I have never seen such a focused beagle! ;)

I always previously taught leash obedience Koehler style, with the long leash first, reel them in for the recall and condition that and their general obedience was magic, but this time I have concentrated on drive building and obedience in drive Ivan Balabanov style, have all his CD's , so his obedience in drive with focus and release for reward is fast and concise which I am really happy with, but his general obedience is crap compared to the general obedience my old method produced, but I am new to this type of training and have lots to learn. It seems like sometimes that drive training is back to front, like I should be general obedience training first, but I guess trying some of the suggestions people have kindly shared with me, I will hopefully get a better handle on it :D

Fiona :p

[malsrock]

Well, I'm not expert, but it sounds to me like you're quite effectively training him not to sit on cue when you are walking him. Sounds to me like you were in a new environment (one where you don't normally ask for a sit), dog will be checking to see whether the old rules of reinforcement apply in this new environment, and when no reward happens, your smart dog will very quickly decide that it's not worth performing in this new environment. Ooops!

There are probably lots of ways to solve the issue. How I handle it is I try to keep training/performance separate from day to day commands. I think if you insist on the same level of performance from the dog all the time, you end up with a middling level of performance - too sloppy for competition, too intense for round the house. No dog can be in drive 100% of the time. But there is always a reward (or a punishment) of some type when I ask her to do something. Otherwise, why would she do it?

The one thing I would never do is take her to a new environment and not reward her for her obedience (or punish her for disobedience). I think that's teaching the opposite of what you want the dog to learn.

Totally agree Especially with the final sentence.

Using separate commands for training and around the house is definitely something I will be doing with my next dog too. I also don't like when other people (i.e. family) use my obedience commands but stuff them up etc.

PS, Huski, I think they're spectacular. I have never seen such a focused beagle!

;) Thanks ;)

I was thinking Huski, what you have achieved with your Beagle I am impressed and just imagining what you could do with a dedicated performance dog, can I talk you into a Malinois or working line GSD for your next one

Fiona :D

Edited September 17, 2010 by malsrock

[huski]

LOL Malsrock I am in fact thinking about a working line GSD

[malsrock]

LOL Malsrock I am in fact thinking about a working line GSD

I think you would do really well with a nice GSD, keep up those inspiring thoughts

Fiona ;)

[sandgrubber]

Hope it's not rude to comment without reading ALL 13 pages here.

I've been in California for the last 6 mo where pinch collars are everywhere. The local feed store has two types of collars . . . flat and pinch/prong. I have seen half a dozen pit bulls in people's front yards with the pinch/prong collar on . . . and I don't spend that much time in town. My neighbour, who does Schutz with her GSD's, routinely uses one. I've been playing around on Google to try and find stories about prong collars doing damage and come up, almost entirely, with people who are in favour of their use. I used one on my own dogs a couple years back . . . to reduce pulling. They understood instantly with the prong collar. Still enthusiastic about the walk. No avoidance of the collar at all. And after about two weeks we went back to the Martingale . . . but got no pulling.

http://www.8pawsup.com/articles/training/prongcollars.html

gives some evidence that they're much much less likely to damage a dog than choke chains. The people out to bust myths had a go at the Anna Marie Silverton advice, which apparently quotes a hard-to-find (non-existent?) German study. However, people chiming in on the conversation seem to confirm that choking is much worse for the dog than pinching.

Edited September 17, 2010 by sandgrubber

[huski]

Malsrock, will really just depend on where I'm living and my situation, I may need to go with a smaller dog like another beagle, and then get a GSD once I've moved to a house with a bigger yard. But a working dog is definitely on the cards for some point

[Kavik]

Ooh that's exciting huski, I didn't think we would be able to sway you from the Beagles

[huski]

Ooh that's exciting huski, I didn't think we would be able to sway you from the Beagles

Well I still want beagles! And I think it will be fun to start off on the right foot from eight weeks instead of two years (when I started doing TID with Daisy). I think Daisy could have been a way better dog. But yeah it would be great to have a high drive dog too

[malsrock]

Malsrock, will really just depend on where I'm living and my situation, I may need to go with a smaller dog like another beagle, and then get a GSD once I've moved to a house with a bigger yard. But a working dog is definitely on the cards for some point

Sounds good. Could probably organise one with postman drive too

Fiona ;)

[Staranais]

Ooh that's exciting huski, I didn't think we would be able to sway you from the Beagles

Well I still want beagles! And I think it will be fun to start off on the right foot from eight weeks instead of two years (when I started doing TID with Daisy).

Oh, they still throw plenty of curve balls at you when you get them that young, I'm finding! I think you'd do well with the right WL shepherd.

[huski]

Oh, they still throw plenty of curve balls at you when you get them that young, I'm finding! I think you'd do well with the right WL shepherd.

Oh I'm sure I'm going to make a whole lotta new mistakes with the next one no matter which breed I get :rofl: