Pinch Collars

[Kavik]

If a dogs drive around other dogs is stronger then the drive for food common sense would say a correction is needed in this case no if's or buts.

I think a lot of people have trouble believing that the above is not necessarily true until they have seen someone do otherwise effectively. Dogs do weigh up reinforcers based on their value, but this does not always determine their behaviour if they are conditioned to emit one response over another (by someone competent).

Whether we would choose to do that without corrections is another matter entirely, but what appears to be common sense is not always that simple.

Agree

[siks3]

If a dogs drive around other dogs is stronger then the drive for food common sense would say a correction is needed in this case no if's or buts.

I think a lot of people have trouble believing that the above is not necessarily true until they have seen someone do otherwise effectively. Dogs do weigh up reinforcers based on their value, but this does not always determine their behaviour if they are conditioned to emit one response over another (by someone competent).

Whether we would choose to do that without corrections is another matter entirely, but what appears to be common sense is not always that simple.

Agree

What is the big deal these days with giving a dog a correction so it regains focus (not to be confused with a punishment) some dogs i would never fit a prong collar it is simply not needed. It would do more harm than good but as somebody has stated in this thread that it has changed a dogs behaviour for the better than to have it simply put down what is the better option putting it to sleep or giving the owner a tool that works when all other approaches have failed.

Another thing I would like to add is that a lot of dogs these days are bred with week temperaments if a dog goes to water after a small correction in my book it has a week temperament and at the end of the day could possibly in a certain circumstances turn into a fear biter.

Dogs are that dogs a correction that they understand is not doing a dog with the proper temperament any harm.

[Kavik]

I never said there is a big deal over giving a dog corrections. You said it is common sense to use a correction if the dog is distracted by other dogs, and I feel that is not necessarily the case - there is another way to get their attention on you instead of other dogs (even if your dog is aggressive towards other dogs and not just distracted) other than use corrections.

Obviously using a prong collar (and I do own one too ) has been fantastic for Shell and Zero. Nobody is disputing that, she has done a great job!

[Aidan]

What is the big deal these days with giving a dog a correction so it regains focus

I don't think anyone here was saying it was a big deal, although in some circles it is. I was just pointing out that which behaviour the dog chooses is more important than which reinforcer he would choose. Your argument that it was common sense to use a correction in that situation was based on which reinforcer he would choose.

[Lollipup]

I have tried both forms of correction collars on my own neck, give me a prong collar any day over a check chain:))

Wow, I actually think that's a really great idea for deciding whether you would want to use something on your dog.

It also kind of reminds me of this video i saw ages ago -

[huski]

I have tried both forms of correction collars on my own neck, give me a prong collar any day over a check chain:))

Wow, I actually think that's a really great idea for deciding whether you would want to use something on your dog.

It also kind of reminds me of this video i saw ages ago -

LOL. I've put an e-collar on myself and it was nothing like that at all... in fact I couldn't even feel the first several times.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: looks like I need to be operating the remote next time Huski lol

[huski]

K9: looks like I need to be operating the remote next time Huski lol

Aww come on Steve are you on a roll today???

Edited September 14, 2010 by huski

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: yeah must be that's the second joke in 24 hours!

[huski]

K9: yeah must be that's the second joke in 24 hours!

Careful or you might hurt yourself...

[corvus]

Well I haven't tried my dog treats at all!

[huski]

Well I haven't tried my dog treats at all!

I wish I could say the same thing, but I happen to like Krispy Kremes too

ETA: Although I did buy some weight watchers jam drops for her for our last trial, I had no desire to taste them, no way were they as good as mine! I didn't want to taint my tastebuds with some grotty low fat biscuits

Edited September 14, 2010 by huski

[Kavik]

Well I haven't tried my dog treats at all!

I wish I could say the same thing, but I happen to like Krispy Kremes too

ETA: Although I did buy some weight watchers jam drops for her for our last trial, I had no desire to taste them, no way were they as good as mine! I didn't want to taint my tastebuds with some grotty low fat biscuits

OMG is that really what you use or are you having us on

No way would I use Krispy Kremes - they won't appreciate that

[huski]

OMG is that really what you use or are you having us on

No way would I use Krispy Kremes - they won't appreciate that

110% serious!!! That and gingerbread is my super special high value treat - I am not kidding, she would rather have a sweet biscuit or donut over meat any day!!

I don't use it every time, usually only for "special occasions" like trials etc.

This is what happens when I crack out a donut at training...

or a gingerbread bickie...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EirXW2xt52Q

ETA: And she doesn't get the whole biscuit or donut, well maybe if we got a really good pass (but that hasn't happened yet ) LOL

Edited September 14, 2010 by huski

[Kavik]

OK that is too funny - I had no idea that was what you used as a reward

I guess I have it easy with Kaos - small piece of cheese and a game of fetch with his favourite squeaky toy is his reward

[huski]

OK that is too funny - I had no idea that was what you used as a reward

I guess I have it easy with Kaos - small piece of cheese and a game of fetch with his favourite squeaky toy is his reward

It wasn't intentional... but I saw how nuts she goes for sweet things. She stole some Krispy Kremes at a DOL meet once (highly embarrassing, but hey, what's new with Daisy) and it became a bit of a joke... so one night we were at training and a DOLer bought Daisy a Krispy Kreme as a joke

[corvus]

I guess I have it easy with Kaos - small piece of cheese and a game of fetch with his favourite squeaky toy is his reward

Have you tried fetching his squeaky toy for yourself?

[Kavik]

I guess I have it easy with Kaos - small piece of cheese and a game of fetch with his favourite squeaky toy is his reward

Have you tried fetching his squeaky toy for yourself?

I race him to it - does that count?

[malsrock]

I use a prong collar not as a punishment but a tool that requires the smallest correction to get the dog to focus on what it should be doing. If a dogs drive around other dogs is stronger then the drive for food common sense would say a correction is needed in this case no if's or buts.

So yes I use a prong in certain circumstances and it is an excellent tool that does have the power to be misused by an inexperienced handler.

I like them so

Correct, I totally agree. Common sense to me is applying a tool or method to correct and condition the behaviour has fast as possible and get the job done. I wouldn't argue that the same result cannot be achieved using a different method, but if it takes longer to achieve, that to me is not a common sense approach.

Fiona

[malsrock]

A lady with a large dog that pulls on leash, she has been to training and hired trainers to help with the probelm which is not being resolved. The dog has a head collar or harness on, she is equipped with a treat pouch and clicker, sometimes the dog walks nicely and things are working to a degree, but when a distraction occurs, the dog is all over place in misbehaviour. The lady has spent a lot of money and time training in this method with maginal result.

You don't seem to be making the distinction between "competence" and "incompetence".

The dogs who come to me have seen someone else first, and in many cases they have been to an obedience club or breed club who uses the methods you describe. I only take referrals from other trainers or veterinary behaviourists, so in every case someone who is competent at whatever they do has referred that person to me as someone competent at what I do.

We could trade examples going back and forth all day but that would achieve nothing other than further evidence that people can become competent using different methods, and I already knew that.

I did actually explain my definition of competence in my previous post

Fiona