Pinch Collars

[Lions]

I'm pretty sure they are banned in Australia, although many other countries allow pinch collar to be used.

If you don't know what they are, think of it as a choke chain with blunt spikes on the inside

IMO they should be used only as a last resort.

So what do you think of them and should they be allowed in Australia??

[Crisovar]

Bored are we??

[juice]

troll

lets see who bites first

[Ravyk]

*yawn*

[Kynan]

Welcome to DOL Lions. It would be nice if you introduced yourself and told us a bit about you and your dogs.

[~*Shell*~]

I have used one - they're not illegal in Australia, but they are in Victoria (I'm not sure about other states - they're legal in NSW).

I rescued my dog at 2.5 years old. He was fearful of everything (he has a very sad back story from before I got him ) - I couldn't go near him. We worked on his fears but when we started being able to go for walks, he would react with extreme aggresion whenever we saw a dog. It got to the point where he would slink around corners, just in case there was a dog around there. On day he even went around a corner and tried to attack his own shadow because he was so on edge about other dogs.

I took him out to see 4 trainer, 3 of them purely positive trainers/behaviourists and every one of them said I shold put him to sleep because I'd never be able to cure him and he was a danger and a menace to other dogs. A few more trainers wouldn't even see us. Then I took him out to see K9 Pro, who assessed him and recommended we try a Prong collar (a pinch collar). Within 6 weeks (by now, zero was 4 years old and i'd been dealing with his problems for 18 months), Zero was able to be around other dogs. For the first time ever, instead of trying to deal with everything himself, if there was a problem, he would look to me. That's what we taught him with the prong collar. There were no harsh corrections, he was given the choice to either walk away with me or to pull on his collar. He chose to follow me. He has never felt the full force of the collar - he wags his tail and gets excited when he sees it because it means we're going out somewhere fun. I would rather have used it on him and had him get better sooner rather than go through all the purely positive stuff we did that did nothing.

Do i think that all dogs should use one? No, they should only be used under the supervision of a properly qualified behaviourist. I don't use mine anymore and would happily give it back to Steve but Zero's collar was never supposed to be used forever - it is a training tool, not a cure all. He acts the same on his flat collar now (and it's a ruthless leather one so I want him to show it off!) so I haven't used his prong in over a year.

This is him now (taken on australia day this year by terranik):

I'm not going to get into the politics of the collar but quite frankly, it saved Zero's life. I would never have put him to sleep but what that collar did in 6 weeks, no other training tool did in 18 months. Zero lived in constant fear and now he's one of the most happy dogs you'll ever meet. I can't thank Steve at k9 Pro enough for that!

Here's a video terranik made about Z and I - it makes me cry to watch it.

http://www.youtube.com/user/TerraNik#p/u/18/Y6F7eQyXJkY

Troll or not, I'm happy to tell people I've used one. I had a lot of s*** thrown at me in the past about it and I think the results speak for themselves. Attack away!

Edited September 12, 2010 by ~*Shell*~

[Crazy Daisy]

That is a great video Shell. I have tears in my eyes. Very well done by Terranik

[LizT]

Well put Shell, as the saying goes...."There is a time and a place for everything"

Darn, must be getting a head cold, where are the tissues?

Edited September 12, 2010 by LizT

[huski]

What Shell said

It's a tool just like any other, it is all about how it's used by the person using it that is important. In fact would sooner use a prong than a head collar with my dogs.

[Red Fox]

I'm pretty sure they are banned in Australia, although many other countries allow pinch collar to be used.

If you don't know what they are, think of it as a choke chain with blunt spikes on the inside

IMO they should be used only as a last resort.

So what do you think of them and should they be allowed in Australia??

Legal (except in Vic)

Nothing like a choke chain - more like a martingale if anything..

Prong collars don't have "spikes"

Safer than a head collar

Gentler and safer than a choke chain

Excellent tool in the right hands when used correctly

I see no reason why prong collars should not be allowed in Australia.

[stormie]

Is it anti Check Chain/Prong collar day today or something?

[flatchat]

Beautiful video!!! Congratulations on all the work you put in on Zero to give him a new life!!!

[Erny]

...I'm not going to get into the politics of the collar but quite frankly, it saved Zero's life. I would never have put him to sleep but what that collar did in 6 weeks, no other training tool did in 18 months. Zero lived in constant fear and now he's one of the most happy dogs you'll ever meet. I can't thank Steve at k9 Pro enough for that!

Troll or not, I'm happy to tell people I've used one. I had a lot of s*** thrown at me in the past about it and I think the results speak for themselves. Attack away! :p

Way to go, ~Shell~ . Great video. Thank goodness for great trainers ............................ AND great training tools.

Except in Victoria, of course .

[Erny]

Is it anti Check Chain/Prong collar day today or something?

LOL

[malsrock]

Great post and video Shell, well done

Kind of blows the purely positive theory about using aversives on a fearful dog

Fiona

[~*Shell*~]

Thanks all.

I'm just a little over being a target (and hearing all the little sniping comments from the uninformed) when it comes to a training method I used and I hope that the OP learnt something. Zero is not afraid of me, he's not unhappy to be around me (in fact, if you watch us together, it's quite the opposite) and he's not afraid of the tool we used (again, quite the opposite). I have been in a lot of arguments where people think my relationship with him must have been affected badly by me using it on him but it is the opposite - we didn't have a relationship before this, he wanted next to nothing to do with me and was not motivated by anything I could give him (and yet now he's an absolute nutter for food!).

I'm all for using positive methods if they work, but they didn't with Zero. 18 months of trying and 3 different PP trainers proved that. When we turned up at Steve's, Zero launched himself at the garage door for no apparent reason so I asked Steve if his dogs were in there - they were... in their crates and not making any noise but Zero was so worked up by them that I couldn't pull him away - he went from that to being able to have a ridgeback lunging at him without a reaction (other than just sitting with his tail wagging and staring up at me to see what I'd do) within 6 weeks.

So as I said, if anyone feels the need to make comments, go ahead. I've copped everything from sniping behind my back to full on abuse about it - but when you see your dog try to kill his own shadow or other dogs through a garage door that you didn't even know where there (imagine if that were your dog and how you'd feel if you had to watch him live in that state of constant fear), something has to be done. I did something. It worked and I would do it again if I had to. By no means is it a tool for everyone but in the right hands it can be magic. Steve just happens to have those hands

Edited September 12, 2010 by ~*Shell*~

[MonElite]

I'm pretty sure they are banned in Australia, although many other countries allow a 2 x 4 to be used.

If you don't know what they are, think of it as a piece of wood

IMO they should be used only as a last resort.

So what do you think of them and should they be allowed in Australia??

replace 2 x 4 by a boot, or head halter, or leash, of flat collar or bag of apples.

Edited September 12, 2010 by MonElite

[Aidan]

Kind of blows the purely positive theory about using aversives on a fearful dog

What theory is that?

[Rottsup]

Well done Shell, excellent result for your boy

[julzjc]

Well done Shell! Damn these allergies are making my eyes water.