Check/chocker Chains

[Erny]

I have only just started training with a medium sized CC on my Samoyed, but it's quite long, I think it would just fall off her if I left it on without me and a lead at the other end.

However, if she is off lead I have the advantage of being able to grab her by her coat if I really need to, so can easily get away with no collar.

Sorry - this is not what the thread is about, strictly speaking. But it is important that the check chain fits your dog properly. A chain that is too long affects correction timing. Perhaps you're already aware of that, Pip1981 but thought I should mention it in case you aren't.

[Danois]

Yep I get ya!

I guess the thing I am getting at or better put trying to understand is the CC being a tool for training, should it only be used for training and is there a bigger risk for the dog to run free with it on rather than a flat collar. I can understand if you use a CC and you are out and about you don't want to have to carry another collar. Say for the likes of a gentle leader or a halti (both of which I have never used so no little about) if a person uses one of these then for the dog to be off lead to play etc do they remove it. I have a friend who always removes her dogs if they are off lead to run or play.

A check chain is not only for training I walk my dog on a check chain as I know that if something unexpected happen that I have more control than if he was on a flat collar especially given he is 60kg. I am also able to slip it up his head to control the head more (noting he was trained on a high collar for the show ring).

I would never let a dog run around the park without a collar of any sort - what happens if you need to grab the dog in hurry - especially for its own safety?

Edited September 12, 2010 by Danois

[rubiton]

My parents left the choke chain on the Golden Retriever all the time - he never had a problem . No idea why but they did. However for our dog its only used when she goes out for walks or in the car etc. At the park it comes off while her harness stays on since its little too big and will probably fall off her head and Id have to go searching for the exact spot it dropped off.

Why would you have to 'carry another collar' since the normal collar doesnt come off to use the choke chain - it stays on (since it has the council rego etc). Dogs can wear more than one thing.

Edited September 12, 2010 by rubiton

[Kempe]

Check chain while training and either it or a martingale while just out walking, the rest of the time she wears a flat collar with her ID tag and council disk on even tho she is micro chipped.

I think it is council rules they must wear their ID tag in case they get loose and with it having her phone number am guessing she would be returned quicker rather than being naked and expecting people to take her to see IF she is micro chipped and to get it read

[Kempe]

Why would you have to 'carry another collar' since the normal collar doesnt come off to use the choke chain - it stays on (since it has the council rego etc). Dogs can wear more than one thing.

Our obedience school always said to remove any other collar and have the check chain on it's own or it doesn't function properly

[pip1981]

I have only just started training with a medium sized CC on my Samoyed, but it's quite long, I think it would just fall off her if I left it on without me and a lead at the other end.

However, if she is off lead I have the advantage of being able to grab her by her coat if I really need to, so can easily get away with no collar.

Sorry - this is not what the thread is about, strictly speaking. But it is important that the check chain fits your dog properly. A chain that is too long affects correction timing. Perhaps you're already aware of that, Pip1981 but thought I should mention it in case you aren't.

Thank-you Erny, this makes sense, and my trainer hasn't mentioned this yet (but I've only attended 2 group classes). I just assumed medium would be the correct size because it said so on the packaging...but maybe it is too long, I'll find out. I haven't had any issues using it, providing my actual lead is short enough. Thanks again.

Why would you have to 'carry another collar' since the normal collar doesnt come off to use the choke chain - it stays on (since it has the council rego etc). Dogs can wear more than one thing.

Our obedience school always said to remove any other collar and have the check chain on it's own or it doesn't function properly

I was told this too. I was also told that having a collar and CC on could be dangerous, as the CC could get caught up in the colllar.

[Erny]

Thank-you Erny, this makes sense, and my trainer hasn't mentioned this yet (but I've only attended 2 group classes). I just assumed medium would be the correct size because it said so on the packaging...but maybe it is too long, I'll find out. I haven't had any issues using it, providing my actual lead is short enough. Thanks again.

That implies that you are using the excess of the chain as part of the length of the lead? And it also implies that the chain is never completely in its resting/release position? Or am I misunderstanding you? The chain should not be so long as to giving you any issues, regardless of your lead length.

Edited September 12, 2010 by Erny

[pip1981]

Thank-you Erny, this makes sense, and my trainer hasn't mentioned this yet (but I've only attended 2 group classes). I just assumed medium would be the correct size because it said so on the packaging...but maybe it is too long, I'll find out. I haven't had any issues using it, providing my actual lead is short enough. Thanks again.

That implies that you are using the excess of the chain as part of the length of the lead? And it also implies that the chain is never completely in its resting/release position? Or am I misunderstanding you? The chain should not be so long as to giving you any issues, regardless of your lead length.

I'll PM you, so as not to hijack the thread :p

[tlc]

I don't mind if you guys wanna discuss it here, it maybe of benifit to others. So hijack away!

[pip1981]

lol, thanks tlc, i've already PM'd, but ok, just for you!

Erny-I think I would need to show you, to explain how I was 'trained' to use it...lol. As far as my limited knowledge is concerned, the CC does come to it's resting position, as in, it releases and the length drops downward. And, even if the chain itself was shorter, my original lead would have been too short, because when my dog was closer to me, I had too much length in the lead to 'correct' her with a 'sharp tug' as I was 'trained'. I brought this to my trainer's attention and they instructed me to create a shorter lead by holding the lead about half way down. They didn't mention the CC being too long. I hope I'm making sense. But, like I said, I'm very new to this, and only going by our trainer's advice. I have done no other research on the use of CCs. And now, I'm a little confused...

and now I have to go to bed, I'll check in tomorrow...

Edited September 12, 2010 by pip1981

[Erny]

LOL - and I'd replied to your PM. But ..... here goes

Ok - yes, your lead does need to be at an appropriate length to be able to deliver a well-timed and effective correction. The length of lead varies depending on what skill/situation you are working on/in at the time.

BUT ..... if your chain is longer than it should be, it will take that moment or so longer for the live ring (which is the ring the lead is attached to) to 'zing' down the length of the chain and finally deliver the correction. As we know, behaviour can change in the blink of an eye. So the longer the chain, the bigger the chance a dog's behaviour could change from the one we didn't want to the one we want before the correction is delivered. Which ultimately means that the dog risks being corrected for the desired behaviour instead of the undesired behaviour for which we originally activated the correction.

With me so far?

For novice handlers, who are especially still working on timing, this can make it a bit more difficult.

As a rule of thumb, I used to fit a chain to a dog and pull it snug. I would then clamp my hand around the excess chain remaining and it should be about the width of my hand/fist. If the chain was any or much longer than that (not counting the ring) then I consider the chain as being longer than it need or should be. My hand isn't small - My fist width would measure approximately 8cm. I think I remember being taught "5cm" excess the ideal. I like a bit more chain to work with than that, I must admit. A chain fitted with this "rule of thumb" was less likely to slip over a dog's head either - that in itself is potentially dangerous when out and about walking. Your dog should be able/allowed to sniff on its walk - at some stage or other at least - and it is then that an over sized chain risks coming over its head.

With this "rule of thumb" it didn't matter if the chain was snug going over the dog' head - in fact, that wasn't a bad thing. Removing the chain should always be done by bringing it up close behind the dog's ears and flipping ONE EAR AT A TIME back through the chain, then removing the chain from the dog's head.

I hope this has helped. Perhaps you already have it correct. There was just those couple of things that you said that bothered me - but perhaps I just read into them more than I needed to.

Regards

Erny

[Kempe]

I have only just started training with a medium sized CC on my Samoyed, but it's quite long, I think it would just fall off her if I left it on without me and a lead at the other end.

However, if she is off lead I have the advantage of being able to grab her by her coat if I really need to, so can easily get away with no collar.

I was told the correct size of CC is approximately the width of your fist on the bit that attaches to the leash (about 4") if you can understand what I mean.

Put the CC on the dog and hold the leash end up and put your fist against it, should be about fist width long, assuming of course your dog doesn't have a skinny neck and massive head

PS Erny above expalined it far more eloquently than me

Edited September 12, 2010 by Kempe

[pip1981]

LOL - and I'd replied to your PM. But ..... here goes

Ok - yes, your lead does need to be at an appropriate length to be able to deliver a well-timed and effective correction. The length of lead varies depending on what skill/situation you are working on/in at the time.

BUT ..... if your chain is longer than it should be, it will take that moment or so longer for the live ring (which is the ring the lead is attached to) to 'zing' down the length of the chain and finally deliver the correction. As we know, behaviour can change in the blink of an eye. So the longer the chain, the bigger the chance a dog's behaviour could change from the one we didn't want to the one we want before the correction is delivered. Which ultimately means that the dog risks being corrected for the desired behaviour instead of the undesired behaviour for which we originally activated the correction.

With me so far?

For novice handlers, who are especially still working on timing, this can make it a bit more difficult.

As a rule of thumb, I used to fit a chain to a dog and pull it snug. I would then clamp my hand around the excess chain remaining and it should be about the width of my hand/fist. If the chain was any or much longer than that (not counting the ring) then I consider the chain as being longer than it need or should be. My hand isn't small - My fist width would measure approximately 8cm. I think I remember being taught "5cm" excess the ideal. I like a bit more chain to work with than that, I must admit. A chain fitted with this "rule of thumb" was less likely to slip over a dog's head either - that in itself is potentially dangerous when out and about walking. Your dog should be able/allowed to sniff on its walk - at some stage or other at least - and it is then that an over sized chain risks coming over its head.

With this "rule of thumb" it didn't matter if the chain was snug going over the dog' head - in fact, that wasn't a bad thing. Removing the chain should always be done by bringing it up close behind the dog's ears and flipping ONE EAR AT A TIME back through the chain, then removing the chain from the dog's head.

I hope this has helped. Perhaps you already have it correct. There was just those couple of things that you said that bothered me - but perhaps I just read into them more than I needed to.

Regards

Erny

Thanks Erny, this does make a lot of sense, and would definitely mean that my CC is far too long. I will speak with my trainer about this at class on Saturday morning.

I have only just started training with a medium sized CC on my Samoyed, but it's quite long, I think it would just fall off her if I left it on without me and a lead at the other end.

However, if she is off lead I have the advantage of being able to grab her by her coat if I really need to, so can easily get away with no collar.

I was told the correct size of CC is approximately the width of your fist on the bit that attaches to the leash (about 4") if you can understand what I mean.

Put the CC on the dog and hold the leash end up and put your fist against it, should be about fist width long, assuming of course your dog doesn't have a skinny neck and massive head

PS Erny above expalined it far more eloquently than me

Thanks Kempe. She does have a skinny neck under ALL that hair, not a big head, but the hair does indeed make it harder to get tight fitting things over her head, so I might need a little more than 5-8cm excess.

Thanks again guys, we can return to topic now

[jazawayaya]

Banjo uses one for training and it has saved my sanity. There was no possible way I could stop him from going absolutly batpoop crazy towards other dogs. As soon as he heard a bark in the distance it was on.

We had to cross the road whenever another dog was coming and even then it was ridiculous.

The first training club I took him to was a nightmare- there was like 30 dogs in once class. Banjo did not stop barking and trying to attack other dogs the whole time. We were given the chain but not shown how to use it.

We ended up not going to training becuase it was such a nightmare and we werre getting no where.

Ended up finding another club- which was not easy becuase at least 3 clubs turned us away becuase of his barking- anyway the trainer at the new club put the chain on him, gave him a huge check and he immedietly stopped. It was the happiest day of my life! there was light at the end of the tunnel! He start right next to a husky pup he had just 10 minutes ago tried to attack.

Ever since then he has gotten better and better I cant even explain how happy and releived I am.

IMO it is the best tool ever invented for dogs liek Banjo. He is not even the same dog.

BUT I wouldnt never leave it on him- what kind of moron would?

At home the dogs dont wear any collar.

[Miss BeRidgierent]

I only use a check chain when walking Boss - as he is almost the size of me and likes to pull it's really the only way I can have some control over him - we are still working at the pulling

I never used to let him wear a collar.... but he likes to run away when I am not home and mum and dad have left their guard down, he's taken off when the door was open for one second. So I don't trust him or them!