Buying A Puppy On Breeders Terms

[*Lolapalooza*]

http://www.zanzebern.com/

Click on "puppy plans"--there are puppies ready to go to new homes pretty much straight away apparently.

http://www.bernese.com.au/PedigreeInfo.htm

These guys are expecting a litter of puppies soon and taking puppy inquiries

There should be a few more, if you're willing to wait a bit and transport them interstate. Personally, your breeder's terms make me go . I could never agree to something like that.

www.malicloy.com has puppies due in 2 weeks in Adelaide

[*Lolapalooza*]

I cant tell u as FACT that there are 3 breeders in SA, around 10 in Vic, 3 or 4 in NSW, 1 in Tas, 2 in WA all actively breeding Bernese litters here and there.

[Puppoochi]

I wouldn't like that co ownership contract. The death by misadventure part surprised me too. Yes the dog may have been cheaper initially, but the breeder also gets some stud fees and other rights etc which IMO compensate for this.

What if the dog dies two days after it was sent to them? Or before it was ever used at stud? Also you gotta remember that I have never met the person and the dog will be 2000 km away. Why should I pay for someone else's negligence. I have never had a dog die from misadventure, because I take care. I would expect the same.

Negligence and misadventure are two different things.

Many DOL dog owners have lost a beloved pet through misadventure. A few recent housefires spring to mind. I would hardly call these owners negligent. Accidents happen, and all the 'taking care' in the world will not prevent this.

Negligence is a whole other thing. Maybe a change of contract wording would help? Don't mean to sound pushy, but you did ask for opinions

At the end of the day, they are your puppies and you need to be happy with where they go.

Yes they are different but if a dog got out and got hit by a car, it would be negligence as they did not take adequate steps to insure the safety of it. It is still death by misadventure.

BTW, the purchaser isn't even a member of Dogs QLD & was more concerned about the stud fees.

[Talisker]

I can also tell you as a fact that ALL 23 breeders on Dogzonline are still breeding - whilst they might not have a litter at the moment they are still making plans

Re - caesars - bernese are notorious for uterine inertia(both primary and secondary), often breeders choose to go with an elective caesarian rather than end up with an emergency caesar after the poor bitch has whelped half the litter.

I've also heard that people will sign anything once they see the puppy - I prefer to send the contract by email in advance so that the PPO has a chance to read through the contract and any alterations can be made well before the time they collect the puppy.

My terms male contract - purchaser pays 'pet' price for puppy, I pay ALL for health testing - bernese should have a clear eye certificate, be HD & ED scored and DNA tested for vWD. Probably around $700 worth of testing.

[Talisker]

I have never known a whole lot about limited & full etc and what pricing is reasonable. All pups are $1800 initially until 12mths when they are hip/elbow scored and then if it was purchased with a view to breeding, and the scores are within standard, its an extra $800 for the full papers.

I am going to repeat this, as it does explain why there are 2 different prices and may explain why 90% of the breeders you contacted say they no longer breed.

Berners in OFA (orthopedic foundation for animals)

Reported 16 out of 100 scored have Hip dysplaisa (2 out of 10) a crippling disease of the hip joints.

Reported 30 out of 100 scored have Elbow dysplasia (3 out of 10) a crippling disease of the elbow joint.

Meaning that appx 50 dogs out of 100 dogs do not pass health testing and have a crippling disease of the joints ( some dog will have both ED and HD).

So when you pick up a pup and take it home, you will have around a 50% chance it will be affected by either HD or ED. That is why any dogs that passes health testing is then suddenly breeding quality, because there are only going to be around 50% of the dogs that will pass health testing.

(Edited to add, OFA is voluntary reporting, they state that as many as 50% of the people with affected dogs do not report. They state it is safe to almost double the reported affected rates for any breed. So this means that the affected rate in Berners could be almost twice as bad as the above rates)

I will repeat this again too,

What does the contract say she is going to do if your dog has HD or ED since it has a 50% chance of being afffected?

Will she then pay for the testing?

Will she then refund your purchase price?

Are you prepared to own and care for a dog with at least a 50% chance of having hip dysplasia or elbow dysplasia?

I couldn't tell you for sure what other Australian breeders of Bernese are finding with their HD & ED testing but I wouldn't agree that the above statistics would be true of Bernese in Australia. I wonder if OFA considers anything beyond 0.0. hips "affected" - which technically they are as they are not perfect - yet they are not going to be a crippled dog either! I'd agree with considering anything above a 0.0. for ED affected - but there are only four scales for measuring ED as opposed to 53 each side for HD. A big difference!

The breed average score for HD for Bernese in Australia was around 12 the last update I got from the AVA - which is well below the average for Golden Retrievers and Labradors. I certainly don't expect 50% of my puppies to be crippled! If they were - I'd be seriously re evaluating my breeding program

[Puppoochi]

I wouldn't like that co ownership contract. The death by misadventure part surprised me too. Yes the dog may have been cheaper initially, but the breeder also gets some stud fees and other rights etc which IMO compensate for this.

What if the dog dies two days after it was sent to them? Or before it was ever used at stud? Also you gotta remember that I have never met the person and the dog will be 2000 km away. Why should I pay for someone else's negligence. I have never had a dog die from misadventure, because I take care. I would expect the same.

I would not agree or encourage that contract due to the misadventurous death part.

However; I would rather see it stated that the co-owner would agree to pay for pet insurance against accidents and death; where the insurance company will refund cost price, and you could have 50% of that sent back if you so feel you deserve it. All you'd need to do is provide a receipt.

Interesting, I didn't know we could insure dogs against death. Maybe I need to add that to the contract. thanks

[Parkeyre]

I would not agree or encourage that contract due to the misadventurous death part.

However; I would rather see it stated that the co-owner would agree to pay for pet insurance against accidents and death; where the insurance company will refund cost price, and you could have 50% of that sent back if you so feel you deserve it. All you'd need to do is provide a receipt.

Interesting, I didn't know we could insure dogs against death. Maybe I need to add that to the contract. thanks

I'll see what I can dig up for you. I'm pretty sure if your dog is lost, stolen, or is hit by a car and dies either immediatley or after some treatment; you pay your excess (eg: $250) and the insurance company pays out the price of treatment and purchase price. I saw one offer purchase price up to $20,000. If a bitch dies giving birth though; the companies i was looking at will not cover death or anything related to pregnancy. If the dog is lost; there needs to be proof you tried to get it back eg: flyers, notifyig vets, and if the dog was stolen; you need a police report number. Again; I'll see what I can dig up.

Pet insurance is a better alternative to expecting a co-owner to pay the breeder an amount after dealing with the death of a pet. Eg: imagine if someone let your dog out, it was hit by a car, you paid to have it live and it died, you fork out all expenses, suffer heartache and then have to pay the breeder X amount on top of all of that. if it's only for accidents and death; I can't imagine that actual insurance to be too much, althoug the excess might be higher.

Edited September 12, 2010 by Parkeyre

[shortstep]

I have never known a whole lot about limited & full etc and what pricing is reasonable. All pups are $1800 initially until 12mths when they are hip/elbow scored and then if it was purchased with a view to breeding, and the scores are within standard, its an extra $800 for the full papers.

I am going to repeat this, as it does explain why there are 2 different prices and may explain why 90% of the breeders you contacted say they no longer breed.

Berners in OFA (orthopedic foundation for animals)

Reported 16 out of 100 scored have Hip dysplaisa (2 out of 10) a crippling disease of the hip joints.

Reported 30 out of 100 scored have Elbow dysplasia (3 out of 10) a crippling disease of the elbow joint.

Meaning that appx 50 dogs out of 100 dogs do not pass health testing and have a crippling disease of the joints ( some dog will have both ED and HD).

So when you pick up a pup and take it home, you will have around a 50% chance it will be affected by either HD or ED. That is why any dogs that passes health testing is then suddenly breeding quality, because there are only going to be around 50% of the dogs that will pass health testing.

(Edited to add, OFA is voluntary reporting, they state that as many as 50% of the people with affected dogs do not report. They state it is safe to almost double the reported affected rates for any breed. So this means that the affected rate in Berners could be almost twice as bad as the above rates)

I will repeat this again too,

What does the contract say she is going to do if your dog has HD or ED since it has a 50% chance of being afffected?

Will she then pay for the testing?

Will she then refund your purchase price?

Are you prepared to own and care for a dog with at least a 50% chance of having hip dysplasia or elbow dysplasia?

I couldn't tell you for sure what other Australian breeders of Bernese are finding with their HD & ED testing but I wouldn't agree that the above statistics would be true of Bernese in Australia. I wonder if OFA considers anything beyond 0.0. hips "affected" - which technically they are as they are not perfect - yet they are not going to be a crippled dog either! I'd agree with considering anything above a 0.0. for ED affected - but there are only four scales for measuring ED as opposed to 53 each side for HD. A big difference!

The breed average score for HD for Bernese in Australia was around 12 the last update I got from the AVA - which is well below the average for Golden Retrievers and Labradors. I certainly don't expect 50% of my puppies to be crippled! If they were - I'd be seriously re evaluating my breeding program

Looking at Australian average score does not tell you the rate of affected dogs.

Just as important, without mandatory reporting (sending all xrays taken to AVA) then the average score is only reflecting the average score of xrays people felt were good enough to send in. Why pay $90 to score an xrays when all can see the dogs will fail eh?

All hip and elbow score averages in Australia (and in any voluntary reporting system) reflect this flaw in the stats which gives a false favorable impression.

In OFA the total score for the beginning of affected for HD is equal to an AVA total 29 and gets higher from there. Reporting is also voluntary, so the numbers are lower (look better) then then would really be.

However, I believe it is Elbow Dysplasia where berners have a very high rate of affected dogs. In OFA they are ranked the 4th worse breed for ED with 30% affected (grades 1-2-3) of those reported. In Europe the number affected is often much higher due to mandatory reporting in several countries.

I have a very good friend (not in Australia) who will remain nameless. I met her over 30 years ago when looking to get a berner for my daughter. She was a well known breeder, having bred many of the top Berners in the world. She would not recommend a pup to me for my daughter because of the high rate of bone disease. About 10 years ago she left the breed as she felt unable to improve the situation under the current systems. She told me that on average more than half of every litter she bred was affected with either HD or ED.

She scored every pup she produced so she really knew exactly what was going on with her dogs. She used extreme caution when choosing parents and imported dogs (and exported dogs) around the world trying to improve the elbow and hip scores with many other breeders involved. She was highly involved internationally in the breed and if anybody knew what was going on it was her. So I do trust what she told me and looking at the current number backs up what she said.

BTW she also put out most pups on breeders terms (though her contract was far more fair for the buyer) she did this as part of her efforts to improve the ED HD rate. She scored every pup she produced so knew if there was a better rate of dogs with good scores comeing off of any given breeding. She would them turn to some of those pups from that line for breeding trials. She did this to allow for the best dogs to be bred from and thereby removing the pressure to use the dogs she may have selected to keep from the litters that may not have been as good. She was using lateral pedigrees to breed away from affected dogs and to breed into lower scored lines of dogs.

Anyway, it is fantastic that ED and HD are not a real problem in Australia. They are one of the loveliest breeds in my opinion.

Edited September 12, 2010 by shortstep

[Crazy Daisy]

I would not agree or encourage that contract due to the misadventurous death part.

However; I would rather see it stated that the co-owner would agree to pay for pet insurance against accidents and death; where the insurance company will refund cost price, and you could have 50% of that sent back if you so feel you deserve it. All you'd need to do is provide a receipt.

Interesting, I didn't know we could insure dogs against death. Maybe I need to add that to the contract. thanks

I'll see what I can dig up for you. I'm pretty sure if your dog is lost, stolen, or is hit by a car and dies either immediatley or after some treatment; you pay your excess (eg: $250) and the insurance company pays out the price of treatment and purchase price. I saw one offer purchase price up to $20,000. If a bitch dies giving birth though; the companies i was looking at will not cover death or anything related to pregnancy. If the dog is lost; there needs to be proof you tried to get it back eg: flyers, notifyig vets, and if the dog was stolen; you need a police report number. Again; I'll see what I can dig up.

Pet insurance is a better alternative to expecting a co-owner to pay the breeder an amount after dealing with the death of a pet. Eg: imagine if someone let your dog out, it was hit by a car, you paid to have it live and it died, you fork out all expenses, suffer heartache and then have to pay the breeder X amount on top of all of that. if it's only for accidents and death; I can't imagine that actual insurance to be too much, althoug the excess might be higher.

Pet Plan has death cover in some of their options. Death from illness is in their Supreme dog package and death from accident is covered in their standard and supreme packages. Supreme gets $2000 to cover the purchase price and $1000 for standard.

I think that pet insurance is the way to go in this contract.

[Miranda]

I think that pet insurance is the way to go in this contract.

I think the way to go with this contract is not to enter into it at all, go elsewhere.

[Gretel]

It would be interesting to hear from the OP.

[Puppoochi]

I think that pet insurance is the way to go in this contract.

I think the way to go with this contract is not to enter into it at all, go elsewhere.

I'm sure as hell not letting my lines go out to an unknown novice in QLD. that isn't even a member of dogs QLD yet. I don't know about your breed Miranda but there are many disreputable breeders in Toy Poodles. I was trying to help the girl by co-owning a quality dog with her.

I don't know of any reputable breeders in Toys that let their dogs go out just like that. Yes she can go elsewhere, and that's what shew will probably do, but the likelyhood of her getting a quality dog with Smash lines is pretty slim.As far as I'm concerned, I would rather put the dog in a pet home than to sell a dog outright to someone I don't know that lives 2000km away. Gotta save the lines, and gotta make sure the dog doesn't get into the wrong hands!!!!

Edited September 13, 2010 by poodiful1

[Miranda]

I think that pet insurance is the way to go in this contract.

I think the way to go with this contract is not to enter into it at all, go elsewhere.

I'm sure as hell not letting my lines go out to an unknown novice in QLD. that isn't even a member of dogs QLD yet. I don't know about your breed Miranda but there are many disreputable breeders in Toy Poodles. I was trying to help the girl by co-owning a quality dog with her.

I don't know of any breeders in Toys that let their dogs go out just like that. Yes she can go elsewhere, and that's what shew will probably do, but the likelyhood of her getting a quality dog with Smash lines is pretty slim.As far as I'm concerned, I would rather put the dog in a pet home than to sell a dog outright to someone I don't know that lives 2000km away. Gotta save the lines, and gotta make sure the dog doesn't get into the wrong hands!!!!

Sorry i thought I was replying to a thread about a contract for a Bernese not a toy poodle My fault, I didn't read the complete thread. obviously I've missed something

[Puppoochi]

I think that pet insurance is the way to go in this contract.

I think the way to go with this contract is not to enter into it at all, go elsewhere.

I'm sure as hell not letting my lines go out to an unknown novice in QLD. that isn't even a member of dogs QLD yet. I don't know about your breed Miranda but there are many disreputable breeders in Toy Poodles. I was trying to help the girl by co-owning a quality dog with her.

I don't know of any breeders in Toys that let their dogs go out just like that. Yes she can go elsewhere, and that's what shew will probably do, but the likelyhood of her getting a quality dog with Smash lines is pretty slim.As far as I'm concerned, I would rather put the dog in a pet home than to sell a dog outright to someone I don't know that lives 2000km away. Gotta save the lines, and gotta make sure the dog doesn't get into the wrong hands!!!!

Sorry i thought I was replying to a thread about a contract for a Bernese not a toy poodle My fault, I didn't read the complete thread. obviously I've missed something

No worries