Buying A Puppy On Breeders Terms

[Rileys mum]

I'm no help with ' breders terms ' but please be aware that possession is not 9/10th of the law. Contracts will outline what the law is in relation to this dog so I'd be insisting on getting a copy before you see the dog. If she will not supply one or allow your requests to be put in contract then huge alarm bells would be ringing in my head and I'd be walking away.... In fact I'd probably be running. But that's the legal side of me coming out The dog loving side of me Can understand your feeling of urgency to get this pup but don't jump into signing anything that doesn't fulfill YOUR requirements as well as his breeders.

Why has she not sent you a picture of the actual dog you are looking at?? Is there a particular reason??

[Lyla]

I have never known a whole lot about limited & full etc and what pricing is reasonable. All pups are $1800 initially until 12mths when they are hip/elbow scored and then if it was purchased with a view to breeding, and the scores are within standard, its an extra $800 for the full papers. I do believe she has good intentions, and she seems lovely in person. Should I be forceful/pushy with what we want out of this contract? Its hard tho as she is the only breeder here (the other wont sell to anyone outside family...go figure??), and out of the 23breeders listed here on DOL, only 2 are ever looking at breeding again. Makes me wonder why the others are listed then?? I have wanted a Berner for a long time, and I'm afraid that if we dont take him, its going to be a few years before we get another chance.

So you pay for the pup, then spend around $500 getting the pup scored, and then pay $800 to get full papers?

That sounds absolutely rediculous to me.

The breeder should pay for the scoring unless you also intend to breed the dog. If you pay for the hip / elbow scoring, I do not see how you would be expected to pay an extra $800 for a piece of paper. No Way.

Do you personally have a reason for needing main papers?

ETA: I also think it is very bad form to be too lazy to provide any pics or info to puppy buyers.

If anything, I think my previous puppy buyers might have gotten sick of the number of emails I sent them.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Got nuthin

[TsarsMum]

there was a breeder in vic i believe that i contacted a few months ago that was having pups closer to the end of the year? they where not cheap.

i would be running a mile.

i would recontact breeders but call them (my mate has a berner and that was the only way she got one) keep asking even contact the berner clubs in each state (something eles she did.)

[jpandkt08]

I have never known a whole lot about limited & full etc and what pricing is reasonable. All pups are $1800 initially until 12mths when they are hip/elbow scored and then if it was purchased with a view to breeding, and the scores are within standard, its an extra $800 for the full papers. I do believe she has good intentions, and she seems lovely in person. Should I be forceful/pushy with what we want out of this contract? Its hard tho as she is the only breeder here (the other wont sell to anyone outside family...go figure??), and out of the 23breeders listed here on DOL, only 2 are ever looking at breeding again. Makes me wonder why the others are listed then?? I have wanted a Berner for a long time, and I'm afraid that if we dont take him, its going to be a few years before we get another chance.

So you pay for the pup, then spend around $500 getting the pup scored, and then pay $800 to get full papers?

That sounds absolutely rediculous to me.

The breeder should pay for the scoring unless you also intend to breed the dog. If you pay for the hip / elbow scoring, I do not see how you would be expected to pay an extra $800 for a piece of paper. No Way.

Do you personally have a reason for needing main papers?

I know. when did dogs stop being dogs and become ridiculously expensive just because they were hard to come by? but anyway, no, we dont particularly want one on full papers. We discussed taking him on terms on the proviso that we could buy another pup from her 1/2 price down the line when she used him as a stud

[Lyla]

I have never known a whole lot about limited & full etc and what pricing is reasonable. All pups are $1800 initially until 12mths when they are hip/elbow scored and then if it was purchased with a view to breeding, and the scores are within standard, its an extra $800 for the full papers. I do believe she has good intentions, and she seems lovely in person. Should I be forceful/pushy with what we want out of this contract? Its hard tho as she is the only breeder here (the other wont sell to anyone outside family...go figure??), and out of the 23breeders listed here on DOL, only 2 are ever looking at breeding again. Makes me wonder why the others are listed then?? I have wanted a Berner for a long time, and I'm afraid that if we dont take him, its going to be a few years before we get another chance.

So you pay for the pup, then spend around $500 getting the pup scored, and then pay $800 to get full papers?

That sounds absolutely rediculous to me.

The breeder should pay for the scoring unless you also intend to breed the dog. If you pay for the hip / elbow scoring, I do not see how you would be expected to pay an extra $800 for a piece of paper. No Way.

Do you personally have a reason for needing main papers?

I know. when did dogs stop being dogs and become ridiculously expensive just because they were hard to come by? but anyway, no, we dont particularly want one on full papers. We discussed taking him on terms on the proviso that we could buy another pup from her 1/2 price down the line when she used him as a stud

I would expect one for free if your pet is spending time away from you for stud duties, as well as the fact that you are expected to pay a small fortune for him in the first place. I cannot get over the extra $800. If you don't need main papers, I would raise this with her, as she is the only one who will require them. (And they cost nowhere near that).

[flatchat]

There is a very reputable breeder in Southern Tas. If you rang the TCA 03 62729443, they would give you contact details.

Distance isn't a problem. I have sent flatcoat puppies to Queensland without any problems.

I also think this arrangement is very one sided.

Good luck in your search.

Edited to fix spelling mistake.

Edited September 10, 2010 by flatchat

[Danois]

Sorry but I would be running!

The dog is on breeder's terms so she can use it as a stud.

Its on limited register now - for $1800

You have to pay for the hip and elbow xrays and scoring which is not cheap.

If the scores are good then the papers will be upgraded to main - which costs YOU another $800

BUT...

On main papers it means the breeder can now use the dog at stud and charge stud fees to the owner of the bitch (can't breed with the dog unless on main papers)

You're left dealing with an entire giant breed male who, once used at stud, may change his 'personality' (i.e. more difficult around other males, marking indoors, seeking out bitches) - may not either but its a gamble.

Breeder gets you to pay full price for the dog + xray costs and she gets all the benefits and you see nothing. Your dog may even be taken interstate for a mating and if something goes wrong with the tie - your dog could end up injured - who pays those vet bills??

Other thing to realise is that simply because a dog has clear/ good score does not mean they should be on main register - might be other conformation/ health issues.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Danois

[Lyla]

Sorry but I would be running!

The dog is on breeder's terms so she can use it as a stud.

Its on limited register now - for $1800

You have to pay for the hip and elbow xrays and scoring which is not cheap.

If the scores are good then the papers will be upgraded to main - which costs YOU another $800

BUT...

On main papers it means the breeder can now use the dog at stud and charge stud fees to the owner of the bitch

You're left dealing with an entire giant breed male who, once used at stud, may change his 'personality' (i.e. more difficult around other males, marking indoors, seeking out bitches) - may not either but its a gamble.

Breeder gets you to pay full price for the dog + xray costs and she gets all the benefits and you see nothing. Your dog may even be taken interstate for a mating and if something goes wrong with the tie - your dog could end up injured - who pays those vet bills??

Other thing to realise is that simply because a dog has clear/ good score does not mean they should be on main register - might be other conformation/ health issues.

Agree!

I would never own an undesexed male as a pet. In general they are a PITA.

[Mystiqview]

Reading through these posts I wonder how you approached these breeders. Did you mention you may want to breed down the track or anything similar? If you did, some breeders could have brushed you off.

Particularly where you said all pups are $1800 initially or $2600 for full papers. So what are her pet prices? Surely they would be $1800 and on Limit Register. If you do not want to get into breeding or showing, then you do not need full or Main Registration.

I know as a breeder, we cannot keep everything we breed, and sometimes we do need to stash animals into pet homes to keep the lines going. I also would expect and have received myself regular photos of the pup concerned, and details of the contract were discussed well and truely in advance of picking up pup from the breeder/airport.

For something like this, I would like at least 24 hours to peruse the contract and think of questions and get advice on what is written in there. True 9/10's is possession. Contracts are also contracts and if it was done correctly, they can technically take them to small claims. I think it is grossly unfair to turn up to a breeder's place when parting with that much money particularly and expect to look and sign a contract.

More makes a dog than whether it passes its hip/elbow scores. If has to have the potential for show conformation to begin with. Not all puppies within a litter do. Some are pet quality. They may not have the best angles for showing, they may not have that show pizzazz. These do not make them any less for a companion.

I do not believe this is the only breeder around. Sometimes when you enquire, you may have to wait, maybe longer with an uncommon breed. I don't know how long you have been waiting for a Berner?

Something just does not feel right. I have co-owned of dogs of my breeding and co-owned dogs with another breeder. It has to be built on trust - for both sides.

Please don't rush into this.

[Staff'n'Toller]

My boy was co-owned for a couple of years but on full papers. I was made part of the syndicate membership from the get-go.

The deal was that with bitches from her kennel, he was free for her to use, any outside matings- we split the stud income. We split eye/hip/elbow testing 50% and both the co-owner and I were to agree on any bitches used for mating. I would accompany him and could be present if I wanted.

I was very happy with my contract but I would be walking from the one you describe. We get too many people on this board whose breeders took the dog back for stud or whelping and won't return it to the owner. The dog is still microchipped and paper registered to the breeder- very sad.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Staff'n'Toller

[Mystiqview]

My boy was co-owned for a couple of years but on full papers. I was made part of the syndicate membership from the get-go.

The deal was that with bitches from her kennel, he was free for her to use, any outside matings- we split the stud income. We split eye/hip/elbow testing 50% and both the co-owner and I were to agree on any bitches used for mating. I would accompany him and could be present if I wanted.

I was very happy with my contract but I would be walking from the one you describe. We get too many people on this board whose breeders took the dog back for stud and won't return it to the owner. The dog is still microchipped and paper registered to the breeder- very sad.

I know of a breeder of my breed who has done this to a number of other breeders and have stolen quite a few dogs from them and won't return them to their rightful registered owners.

So yeah.. happens all too often to the unsuspecting

[dancinbcs]

I don't like the sound of this contract at all.

I would not be parting with one cent unless the dog was going to be in dual names. With him in just the breeder's name you have no rights at all.

For $1800 I would insist on dual names and if you don't want to breed with the dog yourself, the breeder should be paying for the health tests. I would definitely not be paying the extra $800 for papers you don't need.

[Staff'n'Toller]

Maybe she is just trying to hold on tight to her lines....that's ok. But I don't see any reason why you can't hold a syndicate membership with her. I just don't like the "he is mine until 12 months" when he is living with you, and you are paying for his food & veterinary expenses.

[RubyStar]

I don't like the sound of this contract at all.

I would not be parting with one cent unless the dog was going to be in dual names. With him in just the breeder's name you have no rights at all.

For $1800 I would insist on dual names and if you don't want to breed with the dog yourself, the breeder should be paying for the health tests. I would definitely not be paying the extra $800 for papers you don't need.

Agree, something just doesn't sound right!

If you don't want to show or breed yourself, don't worry about the full papers. If the breeder wants to see if he is worthy of being bred from, she will need to pay for the testing and then if the tests come back to her liking and she then wishes to breed, she will have to upgrade to main register anyway otherwise she won't be allowed to breed with him! So why on earth would you agree to pay her another $800 Comes down to if SHE wants to use him, she will have to put him on mains anyway which is none of your concern as the pet owner. And the papers certainly don't cost anywhere near that!

[heroeswit]

So you are talking to a breeder about purchasing a pup on breeders terms, but this breeder is the ONLY breeder of this breed selling pups publicly? I highly doubt that this is correct.

Please contact your breeder about what she wants in a contract, and list back to her what you want in a contract and find even ground. If the contract sways more to one side, it wont be fair!

As I mentioned earlier in my posts, there are only 2 breeders of Berners in QLD. One wont sell to me or anyone outside of their family and friends, and the other is the breeder who has a pup for me. I have personally emailed all of the 23 "breeders" listed on Dogz Online (australia wide) and received many replies, almost 90% stating that they are not breeding their Berners anymore. One had pups but all were sold early on. A couple in NZ had pups also but wouldnt ship to Aus... so yes, she is the ONLY breeder selling publicly to my knowledge. Feel free to search for yourself if you wish, and I'd love to hear if you know of any other breeders who are still breeding, I would be very appreciative.

I googled bernese mt dog breeders and got a heap of breeders.1 breeder with pups due at end of month another 1 another with info on another breeder

Hope this helps.

You Don't need to limited to DOL when you have google

Also I wouldn't purchase from this breeder there is too much that seems wrong

if the links attached aren't permitted I will delete and PM

Edited September 10, 2010 by dwilds

[Steve]

Dont do it.

[shortstep]

I have never known a whole lot about limited & full etc and what pricing is reasonable. All pups are $1800 initially until 12mths when they are hip/elbow scored and then if it was purchased with a view to breeding, and the scores are within standard, its an extra $800 for the full papers.

I am going to repeat this, as it does explain why there are 2 different prices and may explain why 90% of the breeders you contacted say they no longer breed.

Berners in OFA (orthopedic foundation for animals)

Reported 16 out of 100 scored have Hip dysplaisa (2 out of 10) a crippling disease of the hip joints.

Reported 30 out of 100 scored have Elbow dysplasia (3 out of 10) a crippling disease of the elbow joint.

Meaning that appx 50 dogs out of 100 dogs do not pass health testing and have a crippling disease of the joints ( some dog will have both ED and HD).

So when you pick up a pup and take it home, you will have around a 50% chance it will be affected by either HD or ED. That is why any dogs that passes health testing is then suddenly breeding quality, because there are only going to be around 50% of the dogs that will pass health testing.

(Edited to add, OFA is voluntary reporting, they state that as many as 50% of the people with affected dogs do not report. They state it is safe to almost double the reported affected rates for any breed. So this means that the affected rate in Berners could be almost twice as bad as the above rates)

I will repeat this again too,

What does the contract say she is going to do if your dog has HD or ED since it has a 50% chance of being afffected?

Will she then pay for the testing?

Will she then refund your purchase price?

Are you prepared to own and care for a dog with at least a 50% chance of having hip dysplasia or elbow dysplasia?

Edited September 10, 2010 by shortstep

[Gretel]

I know you really want a puppy but getting into this contract does not sound like it's in your best interests. If you want a pet puppy you would be better off to wait. I'd not be too happy with a large entire boy and not having the option to desex him if you wanted to......

[shortstep]

Here is a bit more on joint disease in Berners

This report from Europe where there is likely some controlls on health test reporting says 72% ( 7 out of 10) have Elbow Dysplasia, or that only 3 out of 10 dogs screened do not have it.

'Gisela Haas reported on a Dutch study that found 72% of 97 BMDs studied had some form of elbow dysplasia.'

http://www.bmdca.org/health/Orthopedics/Elbow_Dysplasia.php

[Starkehre]

Personally, if I was thrilled with the breeder and her dogs I would be purchasing the pup outright.

It is so common for owners and breeders to have a falling out, uncomfortable for everyone.

Who knows what will happen down the track, if you still want another pup later, buy another pup.

You will still have breeder support etc, just not the ties that bind you into the terms contract.