Buying A Puppy On Breeders Terms

[jpandkt08]

Hi there everyone,

I am Kristie and I'm new here to the forums.

Hubby and I are picking up our 8wk old Bernese Mt dog pup over the weekend and we are buying him on breeders terms.

Does anyone know what sort of things we can expect to be signing in the contract? The breeder hasnt guaranteed that we will be getting a puppy or a discount on a puppy or anything from the deal... so can I make sure its in the contract first?

what rights do I have to negotiate what happens, ie when she wants to breed from him who drives where etc?

thanks

[TsarsMum]

i would be looking at getting the contract asap as you might not like what you see and they are normally none neg.

i have seen one for a bernise and they had rights to your pup until they got a litter of 5 live pups you had to pay all the costs eg xrays etc and they walk away with pups worth what 1500 plus for nothing.

we worked out she was raking in the $

so email ask to site this contract asap

[Pippa]

MAke sure everyting is clearly understood before going ahead. How far away does the breeder live? I would imagine you would get the dog at a reduced rate and that the breeder would pay any expenses involved in breeding him and travelling him to the bitch.

Other questions to be asked could be how many times is he to be used, or for how long.

Also is the dog to be shown and by whom?

[shortstep]

This may not apply to Berners in Australia, but in the states (OFA)

they have a fairly high rate (16 out of every 100 scored) hip problems

and a very high rate of (30 out of 100 scored) that had elbow dysplasia.

Make sure in writting they pay for the xrays and you may want to know what they will do if you pup has hip or elbow dysplasia.

Edited September 10, 2010 by shortstep

[poodlefan]

Personally, if this pup is to be a pet and nothing else I wouldn't want him on breeders terms.

Large entire male dogs that have been used as stud dogs aren't always going to be the easiest of pets to manage.

Do you want to have to drop everything when there's a bitch in season to be serviced or to send the dog off on his own to the breeders? Or will bitches be brought to you?

Who's paying for health testing?

Who gets the stud fees?

[Mystiqview]

In short, they should send you a copy of the "contract" before you turn up there on the weekend. When you do turn up, make sure everything is clear and in writing.

In short, you have to be comfortable with what those "breeders terms" are. If there is any doubt, then I would not go through with it.

I agree with the others:

Breeder should pay for health tests relevant to your breed.

Do you pay full price for pup or reduced/free rate

general vaccination/worming/day to day care: normally I would say that would be you as part and parcel of normal dog ownership

Be very clear on things such as potential stud use - time away from you, duration, who pays for health problems (infection contracted from bitch, or other issues that may occur during mating), stud fees (who gets stud fees, is it 100% breeder or % to you and % to breeder.) Do bitches come to you? etc

Also be clear on what happens to the dog at the end of its potential breeding/stud duties. How long are you required to keep the dog whole for?

[dancinbcs]

With a male that is otherwise being kept as a pet, the arrangementsI have seen work best are as follows:

The dog is either sold at full price or sometimes just placed for free. I suppose some would sell at reduced price but everyone I know seems to go for all or nothing. The breeder pays all health tests and either brings bitches to the dog or takes the dog home to do matings. The owner pays all normal costs to keep the dog and has nothing to do with the matings except to make the dog available. The owner is not expected to board bitches.

With stud fees the fairest arrangement is for the breeder to use the dog free of charge for their own bitches but for stud fees from outside bitches to go to the owner, if the owner paid for the dog. If the dog was placed free of charge then the breeder usually keeps some of the stud fees.

If the breeder wants to show the dog they make arrangements to collect, wash and groom the dog, take it to the show and return it to the owner, unless the owner gets interested and likes to prepare the dog and bring him along to the show.

If you intend to show and breed from the dog yourself then you should pay all, part or nothing for him, pay for all the health tests and keep all stud fees, except the the breeder should be able to use him for free over their own bitches.

Co-ownership/breeders terms is very common in my breed and a couple of others I am very familiar with and most never have a drama with any of the arrangements. If the breeder's main concern is retaining the bloodlines then things usually work out fine. If the motivation is making money at the owners expense then the arrangement is bound to fail.

With a Bernese I would not be too concerned over keeping him entire or him being overused. They are still a pretty rare breed so there are not a lot of litters register and most dogs would be lucky to be used a few times in their life. They are also an easily trained fairly placid breed so keeping an entire male should not be a big problem.

[jpandkt08]

This may not apply to Berners in Australia, but in the states (OFA)

they have a fairly high rate (16 out of every 100 scored) hip problems

and a very high rate of (30 out of 100 scored) that had elbow dysplasia.

Make sure in writting they pay for the xrays and you may want to know what they will do if you pup has hip or elbow dysplasia.

She has already stated that the pups all stay in her name until 12months old or until we fulfill the terms of the contract, including that we pay for the hip/elbow xrays & grading.

[poodlefan]

This may not apply to Berners in Australia, but in the states (OFA)

they have a fairly high rate (16 out of every 100 scored) hip problems

and a very high rate of (30 out of 100 scored) that had elbow dysplasia.

Make sure in writting they pay for the xrays and you may want to know what they will do if you pup has hip or elbow dysplasia.

She has already stated that the pups all stay in her name until 12months old or until we fulfill the terms of the contract, including that we pay for the hip/elbow xrays & grading.

If you're paying for the health tests, you should be getting the stud fees.

This deal sounds mighty one sided to me - and its not on your side.

[jpandkt08]

i would be looking at getting the contract asap as you might not like what you see and they are normally none neg.

i have seen one for a bernise and they had rights to your pup until they got a litter of 5 live pups you had to pay all the costs eg xrays etc and they walk away with pups worth what 1500 plus for nothing.

we worked out she was raking in the $

so email ask to site this contract asap

Yes I do think its a good idea however she isnt the best at emailing. She makes me feel a little like I am an inconvenience for asking my questions. She sent thru pics of the litter but it was of when they were first born, so we dont know what he looks like either. I have called also but its a 50/50 chance whether she answers

[poodlefan]

Yes I do think its a good idea however she isnt the best at emailing. She makes me feel a little like I am an inconvenience for asking my questions. She sent thru pics of the litter but it was of when they were first born, so we dont know what he looks like either. I have called also but its a 50/50 chance whether she answers

Does this sound like someone you want to have an ongoing interest in/control of your dog for quite a few years?

[jpandkt08]

Yes I do think its a good idea however she isnt the best at emailing. She makes me feel a little like I am an inconvenience for asking my questions. She sent thru pics of the litter but it was of when they were first born, so we dont know what he looks like either. I have called also but its a 50/50 chance whether she answers

Does this sound like someone you want to have an ongoing interest in/control of your dog for quite a few years?

I know, I am questioning how its all going to work. As I mentioned before, we live almost a 3hr drive away. She did state that breeders terms simply means that if he is a male and suitable for breeding, she retains breeding rights and can use him at her expense. This is fine by me, so long as we get some benefit. If we have to do the running around...and come away with nothing then I wont buy him. she has two prices, one is $1800 for limited, or $2600 for full papers. We will pay $1800 for him on terms. agreed it is a reduced rate, but we wouldnt be bothering unless we are given another pup for it down the line. My husband isnt so concerned. As he said to me, possession is nine tenths of the law, and if he's in our yard, he's ours...full stop.

[oakway]

Yes I do think its a good idea however she isnt the best at emailing. She makes me feel a little like I am an inconvenience for asking my questions. She sent thru pics of the litter but it was of when they were first born, so we dont know what he looks like either. I have called also but its a 50/50 chance whether she answers

Does this sound like someone you want to have an ongoing interest in/control of your dog for quite a few years?

I know, I am questioning how its all going to work. As I mentioned before, we live almost a 3hr drive away. She did state that breeders terms simply means that if he is a male and suitable for breeding, she retains breeding rights and can use him at her expense. This is fine by me, so long as we get some benefit. If we have to do the running around...and come away with nothing then I wont buy him. she has two prices, one is $1800 for limited, or $2600 for full papers. We will pay $1800 for him on terms. agreed it is a reduced rate, but we wouldnt be bothering unless we are given another pup for it down the line. My husband isnt so concerned. As he said to me, possession is nine tenths of the law, and if he's in our yard, he's ours...full stop.

I can understand the two prices if one was for a show quality specimen and the other for pet quality.

Two different prices for two different dog but not two prices for the one dog.

If the dog is pet quality it should not be bred from.

If the dog is show quality why is not being shown.

Sorry I would run a mile.

[Gayle.]

I have a pup that I co-own with the breeder. She lives in another state and I have never met her. I suppose it's a similar arrangement as if this little dude grows up to be as special as anticipated, he will go back to her for stud-muffin duties from time to time.

However, there are a couple of big differences.......this is the second dog of mine from that particular breeder, so we have a bit of background there.

I would never have gone into any breeders terms with someone I had no history with. But I know with the puppies breeder that I can shoot off an email and know for certain it will be replied to that day. I can ask questions, they'll be answered immediately.

When he was at her place, she sent me weekly photos of him, just as she did with the first puppy I got from her.

When she asked me to co-own this pup with her, I had absolutely no hesitation in saying yes. But we already had a trusted, if distant relationship built on already owning a pup from her.

[jpandkt08]

Yes I do think its a good idea however she isnt the best at emailing. She makes me feel a little like I am an inconvenience for asking my questions. She sent thru pics of the litter but it was of when they were first born, so we dont know what he looks like either. I have called also but its a 50/50 chance whether she answers

Does this sound like someone you want to have an ongoing interest in/control of your dog for quite a few years?

I know, I am questioning how its all going to work. As I mentioned before, we live almost a 3hr drive away. She did state that breeders terms simply means that if he is a male and suitable for breeding, she retains breeding rights and can use him at her expense. This is fine by me, so long as we get some benefit. If we have to do the running around...and come away with nothing then I wont buy him. she has two prices, one is $1800 for limited, or $2600 for full papers. We will pay $1800 for him on terms. agreed it is a reduced rate, but we wouldnt be bothering unless we are given another pup for it down the line. My husband isnt so concerned. As he said to me, possession is nine tenths of the law, and if he's in our yard, he's ours...full stop.

I can understand the two prices if one was for a show quality specimen and the other for pet quality.

Two different prices for two different dog but not two prices for the one dog.

If the dog is pet quality it should not be bred from.

If the dog is show quality why is not being shown.

Sorry I would run a mile.

I have never known a whole lot about limited & full etc and what pricing is reasonable. All pups are $1800 initially until 12mths when they are hip/elbow scored and then if it was purchased with a view to breeding, and the scores are within standard, its an extra $800 for the full papers. I do believe she has good intentions, and she seems lovely in person. Should I be forceful/pushy with what we want out of this contract? Its hard tho as she is the only breeder here (the other wont sell to anyone outside family...go figure??), and out of the 23breeders listed here on DOL, only 2 are ever looking at breeding again. Makes me wonder why the others are listed then?? I have wanted a Berner for a long time, and I'm afraid that if we dont take him, its going to be a few years before we get another chance.

[KitKat]

Don't do anything with haste - you could regret it. Also interstate adoptions are not uncommon - and considering you have had little to no contact with this pup before the expectation that you turn up to buy - you'll probably get more info (regular pics and updates etc) on the prospective pup then you have had on this one.

This pup may be a bit out of the blue due to other people on the list in front of you deciding against this pup - eg would prefer a girl, wanted a particular shaped blaze, etc etc - so don't necessarily see that as the turn off. Mind you i'd be hesitant myself if i was only given a short time to decide and with breeders terms the only way to get the pup. Call them and ask if they can email you a copy of the contract so you can go over it and decide if you are comfortable with those particular terms or not. And if not comfortable make notes and ask the questions of the Breeder - if you are happy with the answers then great, if not happy then start considering other Breeders interstate etc.

Good luck

[Parkeyre]

So you are talking to a breeder about purchasing a pup on breeders terms, but this breeder is the ONLY breeder of this breed selling pups publicly? I highly doubt that this is correct.

Please contact your breeder about what she wants in a contract, and list back to her what you want in a contract and find even ground. If the contract sways more to one side, it wont be fair!

Edited September 10, 2010 by Parkeyre

[SwaY]

Doesn't sound fair to me, or a relationship that will work out.

[jpandkt08]

So you are talking to a breeder about purchasing a pup on breeders terms, but this breeder is the ONLY breeder of this breed selling pups publicly? I highly doubt that this is correct.

Please contact your breeder about what she wants in a contract, and list back to her what you want in a contract and find even ground. If the contract sways more to one side, it wont be fair!

As I mentioned earlier in my posts, there are only 2 breeders of Berners in QLD. One wont sell to me or anyone outside of their family and friends, and the other is the breeder who has a pup for me. I have personally emailed all of the 23 "breeders" listed on Dogz Online (australia wide) and received many replies, almost 90% stating that they are not breeding their Berners anymore. One had pups but all were sold early on. A couple in NZ had pups also but wouldnt ship to Aus... so yes, she is the ONLY breeder selling publicly to my knowledge. Feel free to search for yourself if you wish, and I'd love to hear if you know of any other breeders who are still breeding, I would be very appreciative.

[jpandkt08]

Don't do anything with haste - you could regret it. Also interstate adoptions are not uncommon - and considering you have had little to no contact with this pup before the expectation that you turn up to buy - you'll probably get more info (regular pics and updates etc) on the prospective pup then you have had on this one.

This pup may be a bit out of the blue due to other people on the list in front of you deciding against this pup - eg would prefer a girl, wanted a particular shaped blaze, etc etc - so don't necessarily see that as the turn off. Mind you i'd be hesitant myself if i was only given a short time to decide and with breeders terms the only way to get the pup. Call them and ask if they can email you a copy of the contract so you can go over it and decide if you are comfortable with those particular terms or not. And if not comfortable make notes and ask the questions of the Breeder - if you are happy with the answers then great, if not happy then start considering other Breeders interstate etc.

Good luck

Thankyou, and thanks for everyone's replies. I have a long list of questions that I will get answered before we buy him.