Sparring Breeds In The Show Ring

[poodlefan]

I've started this topic, not to condemn the practice but to learn more about it from those who handle breeds that can be sparred.

I found this description (on a Kerry Blue website) interesting:

There appears to be a varied number of opinions concerning the practice of "sparring" in the Kerry Blue Terrier ring. Most KBT folks feel that sparring is a valuable [conformation] judging tool used to determine alertness, courage and confidence in a good dog. A true test of KBT mettle is how one reacts among one's peers or rather how a "noble" might act among his "peerage".The act of sparring KBTs allows a judge to determine which KBT possesses the greatest amount of poise and fire, tempered with dignity and control. In other words, sparring shows the judge "who's who"!

At almost every all-terrier show, KBTs are routinely sparred at the judge's direction and at the exhibitor's choice. Rarely is there an incidence of uncontrollable aggression ever witnessed. One might observe an abundance of excitement but few incidents of "real" fighting.This naturally begs the question: Is sparring fighting? My answer is "no". KBTs are intelligent dogs, and it's important to remember that a good measure of their mental quality may be judged on how they react when sparred.

When the few fights that do break out, it is almost always due to handler error or inexperience, or broken or slipped leads. Additionally, one must not discount deliberate attempts to rattle a novice handler, which may be employed by a less than sporting seasoned exhibitor. These "tricks" might include allowing the dogs to draw too near each other, or maintain eye contact too long. With experience, most learn to diffuse or defend against such maneuvers.

From a judge's perspective, questions to ask might include: Does the KBT pull itself up on its toes, arching its neck and show interest while exuding a definite attitude of warning to the other dog? Does it drop its tail and refuse to make eye contact? If a dog loses control, will [the judge] reconsider the specimen if the handler pulls out of the spar, only to return and spar successfully?

Experienced and knowledgeable bystanders of KBT sparring have questioned the wisdom of this practice in view of the attitudes towards dogs held by the public today. Spectators might consider our breed in a bad light when witnessing, and not understanding, sparring at shows today. Maintaining order in the ring while providing a forum to showcase proper temperament has become more important as dog shows grow bigger, and become more visible to the public eye. To this end, exhibitors and judges must make every effort to learn how to spar KBTs properly; resulting in a picture that is thrilling to behold by all spectators alike.

In the end, perhaps we can all agree that there is nothing so glorious as a ring full of beautifully conditioned KBTs, pulled up on their toes, displaying control "resting on a hair" thereby exemplifying true KBT character. If done properly with skill and respect, sparring presents an opportunity to display fine KBT temperament at it's best!

Questions:

* Is facing a breed that will spar up to a dog that is clearly NOT its peer (eg. much smaller, different breed with different temperament) still considered to be sparring?

* Is it appropriate to spar a dog off another exhibitors dog if that exhibitor has not agreed to it? I can see how if you are in a Terrier ring or at a Specialty there may be a tacit acceptance that this practice will be used but does that flow on to General Specials?

* How widely is the practice used here?

[Sayly]

I have only seen terrier specialists spar some breeds on (I think) two occasions. I have shown in the terrier ring for around 3 years. We haven't had it happen at breed level although we may spin the dog/bitch in front around to face the one behind on our own accord when more than one dog is in the ring on the stack.

I have seen it occur in Foxies at breed level.

I don't have an issue with sparring if the breeds are similar size and have temperaments that means they should spar, I wouldn't like to see it between non-sparring breeds and a sparring breed.

[SwaY]

I see more exhibitors sparring then dogs.

[Sheridan]

I have only seen terrier specialists spar some breeds on (I think) two occasions. I have shown in the terrier ring for around 3 years. We haven't had it happen at breed level although we may spin the dog/bitch in front around to face the one behind on our own accord when more than one dog is in the ring on the stack.

I have seen it occur in Foxies at breed level.

I don't have an issue with sparring if the breeds are similar size and have temperaments that means they should spar, I wouldn't like to see it between non-sparring breeds and a sparring breed.

It wasn't sparring but recall, Lyndsay, at the Adelaide Royal when Cathy Delmar was pleased when Ruby and her littermate (?? can't remember now) got all boisterous at each other. I think some people believe sparring = fighting and it's not. This description from a westie site best describes it:

Sparring means the dog, when 'faced off' with other dogs, 'pulls itself together'; tail up and quivering, ears alert, head raised, neck arched, back shortened. The

dog should "dare" the other animal, not attack it!

[Sayly]

I have only seen terrier specialists spar some breeds on (I think) two occasions. I have shown in the terrier ring for around 3 years. We haven't had it happen at breed level although we may spin the dog/bitch in front around to face the one behind on our own accord when more than one dog is in the ring on the stack.

I have seen it occur in Foxies at breed level.

I don't have an issue with sparring if the breeds are similar size and have temperaments that means they should spar, I wouldn't like to see it between non-sparring breeds and a sparring breed.

It wasn't sparring but recall, Lyndsay, at the Adelaide Royal when Cathy Delmar was pleased when Ruby and her littermate (?? can't remember now) got all boisterous at each other. I think some people believe sparring = fighting and it's not. This description from a westie site best describes it:

Sparring means the dog, when 'faced off' with other dogs, 'pulls itself together'; tail up and quivering, ears alert, head raised, neck arched, back shortened. The

dog should "dare" the other animal, not attack it!

I'd actually forgotten about the royal Sheridan! Sparring has happened here are normal shows.

Lily is Ruby's 1/2 sister, both are Ned daughters.

[t-time]

Personally I haven't experienced this with KBTs but rather in General Specials when a Terrier exhibitor would "bait" their Terriers by using my Toy dog!!!!

It happened more than once and each time, it would scare the living daylights out of my girl who was normally steady as a rock to show.

So, it *does* happen but I wouldn't say it is regular practice.

ETA: different exhibitors and different breeds each time apart from one one particular breed which I won't mention and it wasn't KBTs!!!

Edited September 10, 2010 by t-time

[Sayly]

Personally I haven't experienced this with KBTs but rather in General Specials when a Terrier exhibitor would "bait" their Terriers by using my Toy dog!!!!

It happened more than once and each time, it would scare the living daylights out of my girl who was normally steady as a rock to show.

So, it *does* happen but I wouldn't say it is regular practice.

ETA: different exhibitors and different breeds each time apart from one one particular breed which I won't mention and it wasn't KBTs!!!

See I wouldn't call that sparring? Just being bloody rude!

[t-time]

While I tend to agree Lyndsay (naturally LOL) - "sparring" is seen to be an integral part of breed type in the majority of Terriers. It **its me and I never win under those circumstances because my dogs become frightened and they are generally very vivacious but 9/10 neither does the Terrier exhibitor.

With one exhibitor I ended up completely turning my back on her dog and leaning on its front It was so obvious to the judge that they asked us to reset and THEN that exhibitor was called off.

[Sheridan]

While I tend to agree Lyndsay (naturally LOL) - "sparring" is seen to be an integral part of breed type in the majority of Terriers. It **its me and I never win under those circumstances because my dogs become frightened and they are generally very vivacious but 9/10 neither does the Terrier exhibitor.

With one exhibitor I ended up completely turning my back on her dog and leaning on its front It was so obvious to the judge that they asked us to reset and THEN that exhibitor was called off.

What you've experienced is not sparring.

[t-time]

What would you describe as sparring Sheridan ?

I suppose you want another Terrier to "play" or "sparr" with but how is that any different to baiting your dog against another? The effect is the same......

[Sheridan]

What would you describe as sparring Sheridan ?

I suppose you want another Terrier to "play" or "sparr" with but how is that any different to baiting your dog against another? The effect is the same......

See the post I made above with the description ... Baiting another dog is not sparring.

[t-time]

See the post I made above with the description ... rolleyes.gif Baiting another dog is not sparring.

What's the difference other than the other dog "not being boisterous"?? c

[~Midniara~]

Years ago I travelled up to NSW to do a few shows with one of my Belgians. He was 14 months old then so it would've been about 8 years ago.

I was at a country show and I entered the ring with my boy and his breeder was behind me with one of her dogs. We kept a lot of distance between us as the two boys detested each other. The judge noticed this and asked us to stack the boys facing each other (obvisouly within a safe distance) as she wanted to see them reacting towards each other.

I remember at the time both boys had hackles raised and were growling at each other. Both dogs were perfectly stacked though and weren't attempting to lunge and the judge just loved watching them reacting to each other. I was a reasonably new exhibitor at the time and so didn't question this, to this day I have no idea why the judge wanted to see this.

[Trisven13]

I think that sparring done as described above would be amazing to see - I can just picture how the dogs would react off if each other and if it was done by handlers who knew how to control it I would imagine it would truly show the dogs to perfection.

I know that when walking Marie around our new little town I would love to be able to replicate her body stance, animation and tail position when she sees my neighbours chooks - honestly we would win classes in group on a regular basis if she would do it. If I knew how to replicate it in the ring God knows I would - if another dog would do it then I'd give it a whirl because the difference in the dog is just amazing.

However - I wouldn't like another exhibitor to use my dog in that way as my dogs don't see other dogs as prey and they would be bloody terrified. They are a breed that was bred to get along with other dogs and they have a wonderfully happy disposition around other dogs - it is one of my favourite breed traits. I wouldn't like to see them lose that because someone had frightened them in the ring.

So my answer - I think sparring would be great to see but I don't think that an exhibitor should do it when they know that their fellow exhibitor or dog is uncomfortable with it.

[Sayly]

I look at sparring when the judge calls sparring breeds like the Kerries and the Irish into the centre of the ring to dare each other, to puff themselves up, to show off, to be terriers. The judge, if they are willing to spar breeds, needs to keep control of the situation by making sure each dog is far enough away from the others.

Baiting with a smaller dog in the ring without that dog owners permission is not sparring, it's unfair and rude.

Cathy Delmar, a specialist Irish Terrier breeds judge (so including Kerries, Wheatens, Glens), was a little dissapointed in our lack of fire in the Irish bitches, they are after all the red devils, until Ruby and Lily saw each other. These two bitches don't like each other, never have, and both were immediately on tip toes, tails quivering and ears alert. They looked fantastic! When they started spinning on the end of the leads Mrs Delmar controlled the situation by moving the bitches in the line up so we were then seperated by other bitches. Ruby and Lily then took challenge and reserve.

A quivering terrier on tip toes looks much more "terrierish" than a chilled out terrier. Ruby is quite chilled for a terrier and unless Lily is around, she's incredibly hard to fire up. She's quite happy in the ring, she's just chilled out! And it's lost her classes in show at terrier specialty (judge came and told us later). A Finnish judge has non-awarded as she just too chilled.

ETA: Trisven, I would love the judges to see Ruby when she's seen a possum!

Edited September 10, 2010 by Lyndsay

[Sheridan]

Great post, Lyndsay. What t-time has experienced is simpy another competitor being rude.

[Ons]

thanks for all that information. very interesting! especially the information about what sparring actually means. and it would be wonderful to watch in a controlled environment.

eta to make my post a bit clearer

Edited September 11, 2010 by onsntillnflash

[Bullbreedlover]

Back in NZ I have stewarded for many judges in the terrier ring who have sparred dogs against others whilst judging.

Always done in controlled circumstances and was definetly to display the true terrier characteristics within the breeds. Always done with the OK from exhibitors.

20 years ago in the Staffords(being true terriers that they are) many exhibitors had to stand distances apart before being judged.

Fox terriers, Kerries, Westies, Staffords. to name a few.

At a fairly recent show a judge in Brisbane actually excused a Westie from the ring because it was displaying assertiveness in the ring.......

It is wonderful to watch true sparring.

These days alot of dogs especially Terriers can be very flat

[t-time]

Great post, Lyndsay. What t-time has experienced is simpy another competitor being rude.

Yes, thankyou BOTH - I can see what you are both getting at now and it *is* different.

[becks]

From what you have said here, it sounds like sparring is just an excuse to show off an DA dog and blame it on the breed characteristics. is this really the type of temperament that should be being bred (when most will end up in pet homes), no wonder dogs of today are more 'flat' then days of yore.