How Early Can You Tell...

[nightgrace6]

Hi all!

I was just wondering how early in a puppies life, you can tell whether it is the "pick of the litter" or "show quality"?

When I get my pup in January obviously I am going to be going on the breeders recommendation of pup but how long would I have to wait, after the puppy is conceived, to find out which puppy that will be?

Is it something that isn't assessed until 8 weeks or do breeders know way earlier then that?

TIA all

[poodlefan]

Some breeders have told me that they make their first assessment when the pups are "wet" (just born) and the next selection at 8 weeks. Obviously the longer you leave the selection the more certainty there is. This is why some breeders will "run a pup on" until its older before making the final decision.

I gather its a fairly individual thing but a lot of folk say that from a construction point of view, an 8 week old pup is pretty much going to show you how it will be as an adult.

Edited September 8, 2010 by poodlefan

[Aziah]

What PF said I make my first assessment when they are 'wet' and again at 8 weeks of age...

[Esky the husky]

Wow, I didn't know you could tell so soon

I guess you have to watch them grow up too though to see which ones get the right personality for the show ring?

[FHRP]

Many breeders will select show potential pup at 8 weeks, but it's no guarantee that a pup will mature into a show quality dog. That can't be guaranteed until the dog is fully mature! It will certainly increase your chances though

[poodlefan]

Many breeders will select show potential pup at 8 weeks, but it's no guarantee that a pup will mature into a show quality dog. That can't be guaranteed until the dog is fully mature! It will certainly increase your chances though

Very true FHRP. If you really want a surefire "show prospect", best buy an adult dog!

[Aziah]

Wow, I didn't know you could tell so soon

I guess you have to watch them grow up too though to see which ones get the right personality for the show ring?

Not so much personality, I like sound temperments on all my puppies though their personalities differ and I take that into account when placing pet puppies. A good friend wanted a bitch puppy from my last litter (to show) and I knew she needed a puppy of show potential but with a very easy going temperament...I was watching 3 (of 5) bitch puppies at the time and when it came time to make final decisions between the 3 I sent her the most easy going girl and I have kept the other 2 (who, mind you, are like chalk and cheese but I like them each in their own right).

She's happy with her baby, tells me how easy going she is and is having fun in the ring and I'm happy with the two I have kept - a win all round in this particular situation!

[Aziah]

Many breeders will select show potential pup at 8 weeks, but it's no guarantee that a pup will mature into a show quality dog. That can't be guaranteed until the dog is fully mature! It will certainly increase your chances though

Very true FHRP. If you really want a surefire "show prospect", best buy an adult dog!

I guess that's true in most repspects but I really feel that if you find the right breeder, are open and honest about what you want then they should be able to select a baby for you meeting that early criteria and all going well, mature into what you wanted.

No dog is perfect, we strive to improve all the time...

[ellz]

Sensible breeders don't sell SHOW QUALITY puppies, they sell show prospects.

Many don't sell puppies to prospective show homes at all because buyers have unreal expectations of what they purchase. Many think that if they pay XXX for a puppy then it MUST be show quality and MUST win and if it doesn't, then the breeder is at fault.

I look at my puppies when they are wet. Some things don't change and are more easily seen wet and before you can confuse construction with animation. Things like head balance, length of neck, length of back, length of forearm and ribcage can be seen while the puppy is laying in your hands and these things won't change much with growth.

I keep looking when they are up on their feet and moving around, how they hold themselves on the move, what they do with their tails and legs when they eat, drink and play.

At 8 weeks, I make the first real "cull" (metaphorically speaking) and look at the puppies that I have identified as being show prospects for whatever reason and note which puppies will be going to companion homes.

By the time they go to new homes at 9 - 10 weeks of age (sometimes a little later) I'm reasonably certain what I want to keep.

I tend not to be too critical after that until mouths change - that can ruin the plans for many puppies. And in one of my breeds the ear fairy tends to be pretty brutal at teething time too.

After around 8 months, I am then reasonably sure of what I have and could then be fairly confident in selling a puppy to a show home as a SHOW QUALITY puppy.

[TeamSnag]

What PF said I make my first assessment when they are 'wet' and again at 8 weeks of age...

x2

[oakway]

I also make my first assesment when the puppy is wet, then at eight weeks.

[oakway]

Sensible breeders don't sell SHOW QUALITY puppies, they sell show prospects.

Many don't sell puppies to prospective show homes at all because buyers have unreal expectations of what they purchase. Many think that if they pay XXX for a puppy then it MUST be show quality and MUST win and if it doesn't, then the breeder is at fault.

I look at my puppies when they are wet. Some things don't change and are more easily seen wet and before you can confuse construction with animation. Things like head balance, length of neck, length of back, length of forearm and ribcage can be seen while the puppy is laying in your hands and these things won't change much with growth.

I keep looking when they are up on their feet and moving around, how they hold themselves on the move, what they do with their tails and legs when they eat, drink and play.

At 8 weeks, I make the first real "cull" (metaphorically speaking) and look at the puppies that I have identified as being show prospects for whatever reason and note which puppies will be going to companion homes.

By the time they go to new homes at 9 - 10 weeks of age (sometimes a little later) I'm reasonably certain what I want to keep.

I tend not to be too critical after that until mouths change - that can ruin the plans for many puppies. And in one of my breeds the ear fairy tends to be pretty brutal at teething time too.

After around 8 months, I am then reasonably sure of what I have and could then be fairly confident in selling a puppy to a show home as a SHOW QUALITY puppy.

I am in total agreement.

[nightgrace6]

Thanks all, extremely informative.

The breed I am obtaining comes in two shades, I have given preference to a brown bitch, knowing I have now reduced my chances of this to around a quarter, my breeder, whom I trust, wants to keep the best bitch of the litter but if it turns out that the best bitch of the litter is the only brown girl she has asked whether I would be willing to show her on the breeders behalf. I'm not sure, I mean she may want to keep the bitch to breed from but I'm sure she would think it a waste for this show potential puppy to go to a no show home.

Of course if there are two brown show potential bitches she will have first pick but in the case there is only one I'm not sure of the deal, I will call her and let you all know. Which leads me to my second question about breeders selling show potential puppies, is this where trust is needed, I am not extensively aware about all the attributes that make a great show dog and I know there are no guarantees but then how, do you know by paying more for this pup, that they are not faulted, particularly if your breeder, as mine, is based in a different state. Not seeing the pup until it comes to you and putting your trust in the breeder is this where a contract or an acknowledged letter comes in handy?

[poodlefan]

Thanks all, extremely informative.

The breed I am obtaining comes in two shades, I have given preference to a brown bitch, knowing I have now reduced my chances of this to around a quarter, my breeder, whom I trust, wants to keep the best bitch of the litter but if it turns out that the best bitch of the litter is the only brown girl she has asked whether I would be willing to show her on the breeders behalf. I'm not sure, I mean she may want to keep the bitch to breed from but I'm sure she would think it a waste for this show potential puppy to go to a no show home.

Of course if there are two brown show potential bitches she will have first pick but in the case there is only one I'm not sure of the deal, I will call her and let you all know. Which leads me to my second question about breeders selling show potential puppies, is this where trust is needed, I am not extensively aware about all the attributes that make a great show dog and I know there are no guarantees but then how, do you know by paying more for this pup, that they are not faulted, particularly if your breeder, as mine, is based in a different state. Not seeing the pup until it comes to you and putting your trust in the breeder is this where a contract or an acknowledged letter comes in handy?

If this is your first show dog then I'd advise you to reconsider taking a dog. If your heart is set on this breeder, then you really don't want to have to take the second best bitch. I'd wait to see what was on the ground before making any hard and fast decisions about colour and gender. Take the best dog (of either sex) you can get. If one colour predominates in the show ring and you're taking the other colour, you may be in for a challenging time in the ring.

Personally I think you'd be far better off owning the dog outright and showing to your agenda rather than the breeders.

Unless the breed is rare or these are the lines you have your heart set on, I'd be shopping around a bit too.

Edited September 9, 2010 by poodlefan

[nightgrace6]

thanks poodlefan!

I'm not dead set on showing, I just want a brown bitch and if the breeder wants to keep her to show (if there is only one) I would be happy to take her and show her for the breeder because I know this may sound pompus and sort of horrible but I do not want another colour and if the only brown bitch is destined to be in the ring, then I will be happy to show but I will also be happy with just a pet so either way doesnt bother me.

I guess, because "show" and "pet" are at different prices I was wondering how early she will be able to tell me (if they have a brown bitch in the litter at all) whether it is a show or pet dog. Not just because of the price but out of general curiosity I would like to know early. How, also, do I know whether a breeder is selling me a "show" dog at all and not just charging me more for a "pet" dog, this is what I mean by the trust?

I have owned two dogs that have the same lines and there temp and form was amazing, this is, why I am going with this breeder.

[poodlefan]

thanks poodlefan!

I'm not dead set on showing, I just want a brown bitch and if the breeder wants to keep her to show (if there is only one) I would be happy to take her and show her for the breeder because I know this may sound pompus and sort of horrible but I do not want another colour and if the only brown bitch is destined to be in the ring, then I will be happy to show but I will also be happy with just a pet so either way doesnt bother me.

I guess, because "show" and "pet" are at different prices I was wondering how early she will be able to tell me (if they have a brown bitch in the litter at all) whether it is a show or pet dog. Not just because of the price but out of general curiosity I would like to know early. How, also, do I know whether a breeder is selling me a "show" dog at all and not just charging me more for a "pet" dog, this is what I mean by the trust?

I have owned two dogs that have the same lines and there temp and form was amazing, this is, why I am going with this breeder.

Fair enough. Make sure that you are fully aware of and equipped for the management of a bitch in season. If the idea of showing the bitch is to later breed from her you need a very clear understanding of how many litters she is to have and how long she will need to be entire. A friend of mine took a bitch on breeders terms and the dog remained entire until 8 years of age.. that's a long time to have to manage a pet that's entire.

[Bullbreedlover]

What PF said I make my first assessment when they are 'wet' and again at 8 weeks of age...

My wonderful mentor mother use to make exactly the same assessment, and was bloody good at it.

Even when some Bulldogs went through the uglies at a young age she stuck by her choice and was proven correct.

I am so much in awe of my mother with all her knowledge. Now she no longer breeds or shows.

[d_dambe]

Even placing an older pup (for example at 8 months) is still a "show prospect" situation for us. We have done this before, for a number of reasons, for example, we have 'run on' a brother and sister for a while and waited until they had teethed and been in the show ring.

Obviously at the older age we have shown the puppy ourselves a number of times BUT once they leave your hands, the environment, grooming, feeding, exercise etc can make a big difference to what that dog looked like/ behaved like with us on the lead and with the new owners. I have had new owners who have been disappointed, even with warnings about the nature of the show coat and the work involved, who don't groom like I do and thus the dog looked different.

There is no guarantee of succees, but the prospect of constantly learning and seeking.

Cheers

merryn

[ellz]

Obviously at the older age we have shown the puppy ourselves a number of times BUT once they leave your hands, the environment, grooming, feeding, exercise etc can make a big difference to what that dog looked like/ behaved like with us on the lead and with the new owners. I have had new owners who have been disappointed, even with warnings about the nature of the show coat and the work involved, who don't groom like I do and thus the dog looked different.

But this isn't a change in the quality of the dog, it's a change in the quality of the home and management, major differences IMO.

[EISHUND]

I guess, because "show" and "pet" are at different prices I was wondering how early she will be able to tell me (if they have a brown bitch in the litter at all) whether it is a show or pet dog. Not just because of the price but out of general curiosity I would like to know early. How, also, do I know whether a breeder is selling me a "show" dog at all and not just charging me more for a "pet" dog, this is what I mean by the trust?

I've never understood the whole 2 different prices thing, and I'm pretty certain at this stage, unless someone convinces me otherwise, that I will sell all future WSSD puppies at the same price (unless it's under a partnership agreement or something.) I figure that regardless of pet or show, the same amount of thought & care is put into each puppy, they all cost the same to raise, feed, worm, vacc, and only a matter of a few dollars difference between main & limited rego.