Gsd With Low Prey Drive

[Tapferhund]

Ohhh my doG Kateshep ,didn't take you long did it?........5 years on and you have learned nothing. Obviously all those magz I sent you were a waste of time.

Like EVERY breed out there today be it Mals, Kelpies, Borders, Labs, Goldens, Malts, poodles ,cattle dogs , Aussies, Boxers etc etc etc ......there are a small percentage who do not conform to the standard in some way ,shape or form ...whatever that may be........and GSDs are no different.

It just annoys me when people take that SMALL percentage of dogs and then refer to those problems as being "the entire breed".

Isn't this topic supposed to be on LOW PREY DRIVE????????????????????????

Edited September 25, 2010 by Tapferhund

[Kickss]

kateshep - I think (not entirely sure) what the breeders call the roach back is "type" maybe. I own a SL bitch and i'm so glad she hasn't got a croup the touches the ground to give her the exteme "type" or "roach back" that you see.

If anything, My bitch isn't as "straight" as a workingline, but people do have to ask me which bloodlines she comes from.

I completely understand that your opinion is yours, and mine is mine. Therefore, yes you see the extreme, horrible cases. I do too, the people that show them, need a wake up call. The worst case I ever saw was an extremely steep croup on a bitch which gave her that 'roach' you talk about, and she practically tripped over her hocks. If that was the first example of a SL shepherd I had ever seen I sure wouldn't have gotten myself one. I can understand why you dislike the angle of the hind and the slope of the back, but I believe it started to better the gait efficiency, but people got carried away by a certain look. Have you ever seen the US SL? Their hocks are horrid. About a metre long! (okay, maybe not that bad but you get the point), watching shows from the US makes my stomach turn. I hope that our lines in AUS don't turn out like that.

The picture of Ish's bitch in normal stand is at the wrong angle and yes it could have hidden some faults but I'm sure if Ish had bent down to take it you would see that the slope is really only created when the hind leg is pulled back so that the hock is straight. This extends the body and lets the croup down, which gives you the "show stack"

The open bitch I show lacks "type" is fee stand, and needs to be "modified" during stand to give her that little bit extra. I like her just fine. She's no winner but she gets her excellent merits every time.

It just depends who you talk to and what they breed I guess. I know my girls breeder's idea of topline differs to another breeder's topline. Just like the strength of their bitches. It's just here say for everyone. It would be like my idea of a workingline dog would differ to yours, depending on what we had learnt, seen, decided etc.

I know people are one sided usually and like I said earlier, I would like to, eventually, own a (sable [yes i'm biased for colour]) workingline dog or bitch. However, at this present time, I'm having fun playing and training my nutcase

It's not ridiculous, they're just skewed versions of ideas of what "should be" a showline German Shepherd.

ISH- Your girl is lovely! I really like her! Do you mind if I ask where you got her from?

Tapferhund - I tend to believe this started because someone wanted to know whether this dog was SL or WL... it could make a difference but it has gotten way off track. It happens though, and some people will never learn, or adjust, their way is their choice.

Edited September 25, 2010 by RKD92

[Tapferhund]

RKD92,

"I think (not entirely sure) what the breeders call the roach back is "type" maybe."

Not true. Roach is a fault as is the over angulations in the hind legs that we occasionally see in some of the dogs today....which gives them that horrible cow hocked action as if they don't know where to place their feet when walking. Now please note...I said "some" and NOT "all" for those who like to read "all" into everything.

Edited September 25, 2010 by Tapferhund

[Kickss]

RKD92,

"I think (not entirely sure) what the breeders call the roach back is "type" maybe."

Not true. Roach is a fault as is the over angulations in the hind legs that we occasionally see in some of the dogs today....which gives them that horrible cow hocked action as if they don't know where to place their feet when walking. Now please note...I said "some" and NOT "all" for those who like to read "all" into everything.

Note taken!!

I agree, but i think the dogs kateshep is seeing and what the breeders are calling it, they're covering, with other words, for those who don't know what they're seeing. A roach back is horrible, to me it looks like a GIANT peak in the dogs topline caused by a sore stomach. To put it in the way I see it. I know this is not what causes it.

I completely agree about your definition of "cow hocked" it looks exactly like that, however you can get some dogs that just have loose hocks.

Honestly? My girls has slightly loose hocks, but that would be because she's been on complete rest for a few months because she caught and tore her hind leg muscle getting out of the crate. (We were VERY excited to go for toilets apparently). Since I've been walking and swimming her... ...

NOT that I'm saying if every person with a cowhocked dog did this they'd come good, and I'm DEFINATELY not saying my bitch is cow hocked.

It just depends whether the breeders can SEE what they are breeding and correct that issue, or just think "ah well that's why we sold it as a pet dog" and keep breeding the same issues!!! - I know these sort of breeders and they make me really mad.

It all comes down to the ethics, morals and ideals that I hope ALL breeders would have, however, don't.

:D

[Tapferhund]

I understand what you are saying RKD and I think most breeders can 'see'...but others turn a blind eye or are in denial. Some judges do the wrong thing to by putting up these animals at times. In the end though , like everything else, it will all settle down and improve ...those dogs falling by the wayside .

It all comes down to the ethics, morals and ideals that I hope ALL breeders would have, however, don't.

I agree ! It happens in all breeds of dogs, cats and other animals.........where the unscrupulous breeders don't care other than the money to be made.

Sorry to read that about your bitch too. How did she do that in a crate?

Edited September 25, 2010 by Tapferhund

[Staranais]

I can understand why you dislike the angle of the hind and the slope of the back, but I believe it started to better the gait efficiency, but people got carried away by a certain look.

Should a GSD trot more efficiently than a mally then, who has no slope? So if we grab someone's moderately sloped GSD and run it beside my mally on a bike, then all other things being equal, will the GSD be able to trot considerably longer?

Has anyone ever tested that out?

[Aidan3]

I doubt anyone would hold that a Malinois lacks efficiency or durability, whether or not one is better than the other (on that sort of criteria) I don't know. This discussion (diverging as it does from the original topic) really focuses on the reasons given for the angulations described in the early standards, more so than the validity of those reasons.

Von Stephanitz chose Klodo v Boxberg as the sieger in 1925, according to this author, to alter the trend towards "high, square" dogs:

http://www.riesashepherds.com/Geman_Shephe..._and_quotes.htm

The Fortunate Fields experiments in 1934 aimed to discover correlations between structure and working ability, while maintaining a dog with good conformation. There is no doubt these experiments had a big influence on the breed, although it didn't take long for breeders to start ignoring the actual recommendations made and taking them to extremes. Of interest, the authors concluded that a "fast trot" (e.g dog beside bike) is of little value to a working dog, and that good hind thrust was the most important aspect of gait.

[Kickss]

Sorry to read that about your bitch too. How did she do that in a crate?

When she comes out, her crae has the door, and then an extra space between the bars, her toes got caught in that a few times and she tore her inside muscles, almost did her cruciate. Horrible!!

Should a GSD trot more efficiently than a mally then, who has no slope? So if we grab someone's moderately sloped GSD and run it beside my mally on a bike, then all other things being equal, will the GSD be able to trot considerably longer?

Has anyone ever tested that out?

I would like to!!! I have the means to as well. I have my girl, and the breeders working line mal bitch, they're born a day apart, let me get my girl a little fitter and I can look into doing this for you!! I'm very interested to see whathe results would be.

[Staranais]

Should a GSD trot more efficiently than a mally then, who has no slope? So if we grab someone's moderately sloped GSD and run it beside my mally on a bike, then all other things being equal, will the GSD be able to trot considerably longer?

Has anyone ever tested that out?

I would like to!!! I have the means to as well. I have my girl, and the breeders working line mal bitch, they're born a day apart, let me get my girl a little fitter and I can look into doing this for you!! I'm very interested to see whathe results would be.

That would be really interesting, please let us know the results! Although to be fair you would need to repeat it many times to ensure the results really were related to breed (and not caused by one of the dogs being fitter or a better example of their particular breed or similar).

Aidan, what were the recommendations made in the Fortunate Field experiments? I have never heard of this before, but it sounds very interesting.

[kateshep]

I'm not just talking about extreme examples, but rather in general the gsd type you see nowadays all the time.

It would "probably" be genetically impossible for them to return to anything like what Erny posted which shows how much they have changed. It appears those dogs have been isolated for some time and so out of influence from mainstream SLs.

The Fortunate Fields experiments in 1934 aimed to discover correlations between structure and working ability, while maintaining a dog with good conformation. There is no doubt these experiments had a big influence on the breed, although it didn't take long for breeders to start ignoring the actual recommendations made and taking them to extremes. Of interest, the authors concluded that a "fast trot" (e.g dog beside bike) is of little value to a working dog, and that good hind thrust was the most important aspect of gait.

They way over did a good thing. If people were actually testing their dogs at work it would never have happenend.

[SpecTraining]

I doubt anyone would hold that a Malinois lacks efficiency or durability, whether or not one is better than the other (on that sort of criteria) I don't know. This discussion (diverging as it does from the original topic) really focuses on the reasons given for the angulations described in the early standards, more so than the validity of those reasons.

Von Stephanitz chose Klodo v Boxberg as the sieger in 1925, according to this author, to alter the trend towards "high, square" dogs:

http://www.riesashepherds.com/Geman_Shephe..._and_quotes.htm

The Fortunate Fields experiments in 1934 aimed to discover correlations between structure and working ability, while maintaining a dog with good conformation. There is no doubt these experiments had a big influence on the breed, although it didn't take long for breeders to start ignoring the actual recommendations made and taking them to extremes. Of interest, the authors concluded that a "fast trot" (e.g dog beside bike) is of little value to a working dog, and that good hind thrust was the most important aspect of gait.

The example pictured more resembles working line conformation than show line, no question about that

[SpecTraining]

I still see these transformation issues altering the original conformation standards as a show judging error. At some point in time for example the GSD, a dog of greater angulation than the average must have won a show for the lines to be reproduced. If over angulated dogs were disqualified, the trend would have never occurred to become mainstream

[Akayla]

Those of you that are interested. Have a google of "Karl Fuller" - hope thats spelt right. He uses GSDs with his sheep in the original style and his dogs win shows.

You also get alot of info about the differences of GSD herding to any other breed.

Im not very well so sorry if i dont answer your questions i will come back and read this thread but in the mean time i think "most" of you will find this really interesting

[Staranais]

That is interesting, Shadowwalker.

But I still find it strange that this is his foundation bitch from the 1950s:

She looks almost like a huntaway!

And this is an example of his current girls:

They just both look very different to me. The breed has clearly changed greatly in these last 60 years, and I guess I just don't understand why the new dogs are thought to be an improvement.

Edited September 26, 2010 by Staranais

[Hardbite]

Hey guys just wondering who imported Zasko v. Prielberg into Australia thanks.

[Akayla]

I dont like either extreme. (WL and SL). I like GSDs that are a good representation. Its hard to explain (especially pumped full of medication ). Im not saying i guess what is right but i dont like dogs that put the dog IMO at risk or the breed. Both SL and WL do this at times. Thats what Im against.

Nor do i believe saying oh but I won SL so there are no over active dogs or over built dogs so Im safe. Nor oh I own WL so the temp is perfect and the back is straight so no issues there! Its silly.

We are all enthusiasts of the breed and should want whats best for it. Its about time we made at least a token effort to work together since it is the same breed.

The thing most newbies get confused over, type. They think but i just want a GSD! One that has sound body and mind.

We may not agree on what that is but thats where we need to work together with open mind so we can get a BALANCED view.

The hate some SL have for WL and that WL have for SL is shameful if you ask me. Its not the dogs fault we bred them to look that way. Standing there saying my dog is perfect will help no one. IN my eyes my dogs have been perfect but if i didnt put myself and my dogs out there and listen to others in the know it wouldnt take long to slip into an extreme ideal.

SL isnt perfect. WL isnt perfect. Neither dog is more perfect. A GSD is a GSD. What prey tell is a good example (thats what we should be asking) given good knowledge and understanding of its history and NOT flicking through a few pictures.

I have seen the old pics and more importantly i have seen them in relivant light ie in time order and with genetic explanation of what was being used at the time, what health issues ect plagued them at the time. Did you know about the health issues in the beginning? There were of course quite a few. Certain sires werent cut off so to speak just because they were no longer in fad. Certain lines diminished due to serious illness. Its worth investigating. Ok I love genetics so i would read it anyway but if one is going to argue the type then you need to actually seriously research the line.

If you think about it todays terms. How many dogs you would need, how many set backs ect you would incur in creating a breed as popular as the GSD. It wasnt done in a day or with one "look". Thats the issue. People look at one photo and deem that what they want. Not the smartest thing to do.

I really am neither for or against either. As i said i grew up with WLers. I know the ins and outs and Ive had plenty to do with SL. I know at the end of the day what is considered a good GSD and that JUST THAT (not type this or that) is what we should be working towards. A GSD is a GSD. A good example is that and a bad example is that.

[Tapferhund]

EXCELLENT EXCELLENT Post Shadow Walker and I very much agree with you !

[Pockets]

What I find frustrating is people ask questions (fair enough if its a genuine interest), so GSD Enthusiasts, breeders, showies etc come and explain the reasoning, the breed standard etc and people still argue, carry on and dont accept whats being told to them......complete waste of time in my opinion

[SpecTraining]

What I find frustrating is people ask questions (fair enough if its a genuine interest), so GSD Enthusiasts, breeders, showies etc come and explain the reasoning, the breed standard etc and people still argue, carry on and dont accept whats being told to them......complete waste of time in my opinion

What I find most frustrating with the GSD's are people claiming breed standard compliance of dogs that are not work tested (Schutzund titled)

[Tapferhund]

What I find frustrating is people ask questions (fair enough if its a genuine interest), so GSD Enthusiasts, breeders, showies etc come and explain the reasoning, the breed standard etc and people still argue, carry on and dont accept whats being told to them......complete waste of time in my opinion

What I find most frustrating with the GSD's are people claiming breed standard compliance of dogs that are not work tested (Schutzund titled)

Couldn't agree more SpecTraining (and please don't dig up old arguments over it) but there is not a lot we can do about it . A helluva lot has been done in the past to try and have the situation changed but to no avail....and now that the DPI are involved here in Vic......I very much doubt it will EVER change........well not for Schutzhund anyway...but there is a very small light of hope in another sport being looked at. (?)