Gsd With Low Prey Drive

[Staranais]

Didn't Belgians do tending as well? I need to go and look it up I know there are different herding tests and titles to reflect the different styles.

I don't really know.

I did take my mally girl to work with me when I was working on a sheep & beef farm, back when she was about 3 - 6 months old, & she absolutely loved riding on the quad bike with me "herding" the sheep. ;) Not sure if she showed any particular talent at any stock skills, besides barking madly though (huntaway styles?!)

[Aidan]

Didn't Belgians do tending as well? I need to go and look it up I know there are different herding tests and titles to reflect the different styles.

Yes, you're quite right. There are quite a few breeds who did this, but it is quite distinct from the work of Collie type dogs. I believe Belgians used to be heavier also, I'm not sure what they looked like but the distinction (back when the breed clubs were still being formed) was that Belgians were the more square types.

[aussielover]

That is ridiculous.

What is ridiculous?

The degree of slope currently seen in some GSDs today.

sorry should have been clearer

Obviously i shouldn't try to do more than one thing at a time...

ETA been trying to get thru all 126 pages of the thread posted by MOnElite, all the threads seem to be blurring into one now....

I found in the other thread:

Think about it.

If you were to throw a ball with the least amount of effort straight up how far foward will it go? If you were to through a ball with the least amount of effort at the 90 deg angle how far forward would it go? If you were to throw a ball (with the least amount of effort) at 45 deg how far will it go?....Futhur than the one at 0 deg or 90 deg? I think so, and its been proven. With alot of science, maths and alot of education this theroy has come about.

There is MORE power with the least amount of effort when the dogs propulsion is at a degree of 45

This is why the German Shepherd Dog is angulated the way it is.

There does seem to be a lot of different opinions on why the GSD is angulated though.....

Edited September 24, 2010 by aussielover

[Aidan]

That is ridiculous.

What is ridiculous?

The degree of slope currently seen in some GSDs today.

Ahh, yes I agree! I thought you might have been on some sort of rampage today

[Aidan]

I found in the other thread:

Think about it.

If you were to throw a ball with the least amount of effort straight up how far foward will it go? If you were to through a ball with the least amount of effort at the 90 deg angle how far forward would it go? If you were to throw a ball (with the least amount of effort) at 45 deg how far will it go?....Futhur than the one at 0 deg or 90 deg? I think so, and its been proven. With alot of science, maths and alot of education this theroy has come about.

There is MORE power with the least amount of effort when the dogs propulsion is at a degree of 45

This is why the German Shepherd Dog is angulated the way it is.

There does seem to be a lot of different opinions on why the GSD is angulated though.....

The above refers (I'm guessing) to hindquarter angulation, which is what really counts and cannot be too extreme either way. The topline is less important in this regard except that it contributes to the angle at the hip. A really good German judge would be able to explain this really well! Where are they when you need them?

[Nekhbet]

The last dog is Horand von Grafrat, what Max von Stephanitz considered the model of the perfect GSD. Renders most modern arguments invalid really when the inventor of the breed wanted it to look like this.

[Staranais]

The last dog is Horand von Grafrat, what Max von Stephanitz considered the model of the perfect GSD. Renders most modern arguments invalid really when the inventor of the breed wanted it to look like this.

Are they really all GSD, Nekhbet?! That's amazing. They almost look more like a heavy set dutchie or mally, especially the first one.

Edited September 24, 2010 by Staranais

[Aidan]

The last dog is Horand von Grafrat, what Max von Stephanitz considered the model of the perfect GSD. Renders most modern arguments invalid really when the inventor of the breed wanted it to look like this.

Are they really all GSD, Nekhbet?! That's amazing. They almost look more like a heavy set dutchie or mally, especially the first one.

The last two are the same dog aren't they? Hektor was his original name.

[aussielover]

They are nice looking dogs Nekhbet. If all GSDs looked like that i would get one.

[Kavik]

They are nice looking dogs Nekhbet. If all GSDs looked like that i would get one.

You can still get a Malinois

One of my choices if I think I can handle it!

[Yesmaam]

The last dog is Horand von Grafrat, what Max von Stephanitz considered the model of the perfect GSD. Renders most modern arguments invalid really when the inventor of the breed wanted it to look like this.

So whats your opinion on this SW???

Flat or dipped backs were very common in the original GSD's and those dogs worked just fine.

They look nothing like the SL dogs of today do they.......... Although I bet you could find many WL dogs that still look similar to these photo's.

Edited September 25, 2010 by Yesmaam

[kateshep]

I was always told it was for better gait efficiency. If you look at "UlfKintzel" 's videos on YouTube the form following function thing becomes quite clear in a herding context, especially if you consider how much energy it takes to do this from sunrise to sunset. I cannot imagine some of the more extreme forms doing this work, even if they had the appropriately balanced drives.

Yet Border Collies, Kelpies, Cattle dogs, Belgian Shephers, Collies etc etc etc have nowhere near as much slope as GSDs.

Considering that GSDs are rarely used for herding how does this argument stand??

I've never seen these other breeds performing the same style of herding (tending).

The standard was set at a time when that's what this breed did, and this was (I believe) the reason given. Why should it change? I have many photos of these old dogs, going back pre-standard, and they are longer than Belgians and have a mild slope that does not cover the entire topline.

Total gaga this false notion that the type of structure is needed for herding. Prior to the creation of the gsd, for hundreds of years their descendants herded and protected sheep and they did not require SL type to get the job done. Yes they were more moderate in structure like other herding breeds. Ironically the change only came about when the gsds use as a herding dog diminished greatly throughout the 20th century. And it would never have evolved in a working situation because to get that type of extreme change in structure requires people to ignore working ability, temperament and physical soundness as long as the dogs they were breeding had the structure they wanted. No one would have bred working dogs if they couldn't stand up either physically or mentally but that is exactly how the SL came about. But the breeders still need the "legacy" of the gsd breed as a working dog to sell their product, so they come up with some pretty mythical stories to enable them to do so- such as the herding one.

[kateshep]

My showline dog, who's had quite a successful show career I might add - check out her roachy back!

Your point being ? I see plenty of show gsds with a roach back and significant angulation in the hindquarters. Posting a pic of one not as extreme doesn't mean much unless it is the whole VA line up with ironed out toplines. Even though your female is not overly exaggerated I can still see that she is of that type ( and not just her colour). The picture of her not in a stack is looking down towards her so you can't see her topline shape as much. What I see with many show gsds it's like the pelvis is lower- and you can feel when you pat them the spine arching-even the ones not as exaggerated. With many too you can spot the angulation in the hindquarters a mile away when the dog is walking and running because they are so much weaker in those areas.

[Aidan3]

and they are longer than Belgians and have a mild slope that does not cover the entire topline.

Total gaga this false notion that the type of structure is needed for herding. Prior to the creation of the gsd, for hundreds of years their descendants herded and protected sheep and they did not require SL type to get the job done.

I think you should read what I wrote again.

I have not defended the extreme angulation of modern showline dogs anywhere. At all. But the original GSD is described (loosely) like this: withers higher than back, not square in proportion, long, sloping croup, correct hind-quarter angulation, ratio of hind-quarter angulation to front-quarters - all resulting in an easy, efficient, trotting gait.

Look at Horand's son, Hektor v Schwaben, and tell me if you disagree. One of those images of Horand makes it look like he has a dippy back, the other does not (they are the same dog). Old GSDs are quite distinct to old Belgians in appearance and gait, or at least the founding clubs of those breeds certainly thought so!

[kateshep]

I think you should read what I wrote again.

I have not defended the extreme angulation of modern showline dogs anywhere. At all. But the original GSD is described (loosely) like this: withers higher than back, not square in proportion, long, sloping croup, correct hind-quarter angulation, ratio of hind-quarter angulation to front-quarters - all resulting in an easy, efficient, trotting gait.

Look at Horand's son, Hektor v Schwaben, and tell me if you disagree. One of those images of Horand makes it look like he has a dippy back, the other does not (they are the same dog). Old GSDs are quite distinct to old Belgians in appearance and gait, or at least the founding clubs of those breeds certainly thought so!

I was referring mostly to this comment below, and in general to the belief that it is related to herding.

I was always told it was for better gait efficiency

Regarding the pics of Horand, he is not the only old style gsd- the breed was created from various sheep herding/guarding types, some with floppy ears, shaggy coats but in old pictures of those tending dogs and the regional herding types in germany today( probably distantly related to gsd) I do not see a roach or over angulated hindquarters.

[Aidan3]

I was referring mostly to this comment below, and in general to the belief that it is related to herding.

I was always told it was for better gait efficiency

Regarding the pics of Horand, he is not the only old style gsd- the breed was created from various sheep herding/guarding types, some with floppy ears, shaggy coats but in old pictures of those tending dogs and the regional herding types in germany today( probably distantly related to gsd) I do not see a roach or over angulated hindquarters.

I suppose it comes down to who you believe then. Looking at the gait of my working line GSD, I do believe her angulation contributes to her effortless gait and that if she had similar hindquarter angulation to, for e.g, my Golden then she would move like.... err, my Golden! For the record, she has what would be considered a flat back compared to even many working line GSDs (for e.g her grand-sire, Hassan v Gruntal), but she is still not proportioned like a Terv, BC or Golden.

She also spends an inordinate amount of time trotting along the furrow around my back fence. I wish I had some sheep for her, I'm sure she would be very happy

[kateshep]

I suppose it comes down to who you believe then. Looking at the gait of my working line GSD, I do believe her angulation contributes to her effortless gait and that if she had similar hindquarter angulation to, for e.g, my Golden then she would move like.... err, my Golden! For the record, she has what would be considered a flat back compared to even many working line GSDs (for e.g her grand-sire, Hassan v Gruntal), but she is still not proportioned like a Terv, BC or Golden.

She also spends an inordinate amount of time trotting along the furrow around my back fence. I wish I had some sheep for her, I'm sure she would be very happy

I am not questioning the relevance of structure to work but the type pushed by SL breeders.

So gait efficiency is important, but the claim that the SLs represent this I seriously question.

I wasn't saying the originals gsds are the same as other breeds but they have more in common to them than to the SLs.

[ish]

Your point being ? I see plenty of show gsds with a roach back and significant angulation in the hindquarters. Posting a pic of one not as extreme doesn't mean much unless it is the whole VA line up with ironed out toplines. Even though your female is not overly exaggerated I can still see that she is of that type ( and not just her colour). The picture of her not in a stack is looking down towards her so you can't see her topline shape as much. What I see with many show gsds it's like the pelvis is lower- and you can feel when you pat them the spine arching-even the ones not as exaggerated. With many too you can spot the angulation in the hindquarters a mile away when the dog is walking and running because they are so much weaker in those areas.

I don't want to argue. My point was that she is typical. She isn't exaggerated (and you might note that a stacked photo was later posted) and she is a successful show bitch - people aren't breeding for and judges aren't putting up 'roach backs' as a good thing. She is typical of her breeding and what I feel, typical of showlines in Australia currently. She has perfect hips and elbows and runs 5kms with the bike daily. No health problems. She's not your cup of tea, but how can you argue that she's unsound because she's showline?

Another thing to think about is roach backs as a stage of development or due to injury. I showed a baby puppy that i bred a few months ago under vet and GSD specialist Karen Hedberg. Karen said during her critique of my pup on the pegs (in last place) that her back was roachy, and contrary to popular belief, that it was most often caused by something being 'out' and/or pain. She suggested taking the pup to a physio or chiro, which I did and you wouldn't believe the change in her

[kateshep]

I don't want to argue. My point was that she is typical. She isn't exaggerated (and you might note that a stacked photo was later posted) and she is a successful show bitch - people aren't breeding for and judges aren't putting up 'roach backs' as a good thing. She is typical of her breeding and what I feel, typical of showlines in Australia currently. She has perfect hips and elbows and runs 5kms with the bike daily. No health problems. She's not your cup of tea, but how can you argue that she's unsound because she's showline?

Another thing to think about is roach backs as a stage of development or due to injury. I showed a baby puppy that i bred a few months ago under vet and GSD specialist Karen Hedberg. Karen said during her critique of my pup on the pegs (in last place) that her back was roachy, and contrary to popular belief, that it was most often caused by something being 'out' and/or pain. She suggested taking the pup to a physio or chiro, which I did and you wouldn't believe the change in her

I don't really want to argue either but sorry I have a different opinion to you. The showlines I do see have roach backs and show too much hind quarter angulation imo. These are dogs at shows, obedience and dogs from SL breeders which come into the Veterinary hospitals ( am a vet nurse) I work at which make me cringe. It seems breeders like to call it something different though to what everyone else sees. I do agree as already mentioned that your female is not as exaggerated but still of that type and no I did not say unsound. Have seem plenty of dogs from SL which can't run fast or jump very athletically as a result of the spine and hindquarter shape.

[Erny]

I'm not an expert on what the "standards" say - the history nor the current. I just know what I like and I do believe that "what I like", whilst perhaps not being perfect, lends itself to a good conformation balance. That's the way I've always bought my horses and I haven't gone far wrong there, so my 'eye' can't be too far from the left of right.

Anyway, here's a picture of German Shepherds that "I like". These are what I seem to recall GSD's being more like when I was a child, although perhaps not quite as broad as those pictured, but not far off.

Don't know much about the Olderhill German Shepherds but from what I can tell from the photos on their site, I do like their dogs, asthetically speaking - a couple of them show the dog's hocks a bit too much underneath them, but that could either be the dog or not such a great photo.

Maybe I wouldn't win any "conformation judge" awards, but I know that what I see in these photo's are dogs with more strength and of more solid and I'd expect, supple, shock-absorbing structure.

Edited September 25, 2010 by Erny