Gsd With Low Prey Drive

[ish]

Ooh he's pretty. Ish's dog is pretty too, but slightly chunkier looking than the posted WL photos (no offence, Ish!), is that normal for a showline?

I think I prefer the slightly slenderer looking ones since they look a lot more agile, although perhaps that's just because I'm used to looking at a skinny mally.

She's usually critiqued as 'medium strong' so I think she's pretty standard - the 2nd photo was after a bath so she's a bit puffier than usual. She's about 25/26kg

[SpecTraining]

Here is a nice V rated workingline dog, one of good conformation imported into Australia.

Fax vom Grezganger SchH3

Out of interest, I have seen this exact photo for two different dogs...........

BTW when was Fax V rated?

That's the photo off the database for Fax???. I have seen two ratings on him in different articles, definitely Kkl1 though.

[Staranais]

Ooh he's pretty. Ish's dog is pretty too, but slightly chunkier looking than the posted WL photos (no offence, Ish!), is that normal for a showline?

I think I prefer the slightly slenderer looking ones since they look a lot more agile, although perhaps that's just because I'm used to looking at a skinny mally.

She's usually critiqued as 'medium strong' so I think she's pretty standard - the 2nd photo was after a bath so she's a bit puffier than usual. She's about 25/26kg

LOL, perhaps she was more puffy than chunky then - hard to tell from a photo I guess! Thanks for sharing the picture. ;)

[aussielover]

My question was what is the benefit to the sloping topline. 128 pages later I got no answer

can you post a link? or tell me what i should search for?

I am also interested to know.

Also, how much of the "sloped" appearance is due to the "show stack"?

Can anyone direct me to some pics where the dogs are just standning normally. Whenever i do a google search it just comes up with show pics.

Thanks

[MonElite]

My question was what is the benefit to the sloping topline. 128 pages later I got no answer

can you post a link? or tell me what i should search for?

I am also interested to know.

Enjoy

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...p;hl=modern+GSD

[Erny]

My question was what is the benefit to the sloping topline. 128 pages later I got no answer

can you post a link? or tell me what i should search for?

I am also interested to know.

Enjoy

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...p;hl=modern+GSD

Don't take my word for it as being gospel, as this is ONLY what I was told in the "other" thread when this came up. But I was informed that the reason for the slope (which also seems to affect the hock angle) was to give the dog a floating 'look' to its appearance when it gaited.

This is not my opinion and by repeating it here it should not be suggested nor inferred that I agree with it, as I don't.

If what I was informed is not correct, I too would like to know the real reason for creating the downward slope in the backs of GSD's and how the dog itself benefits from it.

Edited September 24, 2010 by Erny

[Aidan]

I was always told it was for better gait efficiency. If you look at "UlfKintzel" 's videos on YouTube the form following function thing becomes quite clear in a herding context, especially if you consider how much energy it takes to do this from sunrise to sunset. I cannot imagine some of the more extreme forms doing this work, even if they had the appropriately balanced drives.

[Staranais]

A sloped back is supposed to be more efficient for trotting? I wonder if it is. Most other herding dogs have straight backs, I think?

But it would be pretty easy to test to a rough degree of accuracy, I suppose, if we got a whole bunch of dogs with straight backs & a bunch with sloped backs & took them all for a long bike ride, & saw who could trot the longest.

I also wonder, even if a sloped back is more efficient for trotting all day, is there a correspondent sacrifice in other gaits due to the slope? e.g., less endurance at a gallop, or less explosive power when jumping in a sloped back dog?

[MonElite]

I was always told it was for better gait efficiency. If you look at "UlfKintzel" 's videos on YouTube the form following function thing becomes quite clear in a herding context, especially if you consider how much energy it takes to do this from sunrise to sunset. I cannot imagine some of the more extreme forms doing this work, even if they had the appropriately balanced drives.

Yet Border Collies, Kelpies, Cattle dogs, Belgian Shephers, Collies etc etc etc have nowhere near as much slope as GSDs.

Considering that GSDs are rarely used for herding how does this argument stand??

[Aidan]

I was always told it was for better gait efficiency. If you look at "UlfKintzel" 's videos on YouTube the form following function thing becomes quite clear in a herding context, especially if you consider how much energy it takes to do this from sunrise to sunset. I cannot imagine some of the more extreme forms doing this work, even if they had the appropriately balanced drives.

Yet Border Collies, Kelpies, Cattle dogs, Belgian Shephers, Collies etc etc etc have nowhere near as much slope as GSDs.

Considering that GSDs are rarely used for herding how does this argument stand??

I've never seen these other breeds performing the same style of herding (tending).

The standard was set at a time when that's what this breed did, and this was (I believe) the reason given. Why should it change? I have many photos of these old dogs, going back pre-standard, and they are longer than Belgians and have a mild slope that does not cover the entire topline.

[Nekhbet]

the dogs in his youtube are not that sloped. In fact theyre black/sable wl

If you look the more extreme angulations come from lines that are majority not used for any working purpose.

Edited September 24, 2010 by Nekhbet

[Aidan]

A sloped back is supposed to be more efficient for trotting? I wonder if it is. Most other herding dogs have straight backs, I think?

But it would be pretty easy to test to a rough degree of accuracy, I suppose, if we got a whole bunch of dogs with straight backs & a bunch with sloped backs & took them all for a long bike ride, & saw who could trot the longest.

That test would have some construct validity, but the ultimate test for the old shepherds would have been survival.

Look it up, "UlfKintzel" on YouTube. Not an excessive slope, not continuous throughout the topline, and the tending style of herding is very different to the work of Collies, Kelpies etc

Please note that I'm not making any sort of argument for the purpose of the GSD in the modern age. Just that the original breed standard was based on the best dogs of the day and this was the work they performed. They had significantly flatter toplines than modern showline GSDs, but were not square like Belgians.

[Aidan]

the dogs in his youtube are not that sloped. In fact theyre black/sable wle.

That's right, specifically those dogs are from HGH working lines. And they are clearly not Belgians, nor do they have the same slope as showline dogs.

[Staranais]

So, let me get this straight (ha ha), Aidan are you saying that you think a slight slope is beneficial for a dog that is going to trot all day because it's more efficient than either a straight back or an extreme slope. Do you then think the slope causes any compromise in any of the other gaits, or the jumping?

They are very nice looking GSD at UlfKintzel. Can you please explain what tending is, or direct me to the clip that explains? From my time on sheep farms I am only familiar with heading & huntaway styles of sheep working dogs (gathering & driving).

[aussielover]

That is ridiculous. NO other working breed, whether it be for herding or protection/police type work has a sloping back at all!

The original GSD did not have a sloping back either (well maybe a tiny bit of slope).

[Aidan]

Can you please explain what tending is, or direct me to the clip that explains? From my time on sheep farms I am only familiar with heading & huntaway styles of sheep working dogs (gathering & driving).

I'm certainly not an expert, but this is tending:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMw4RxjCIzY

There are no fences, flocks are grazed over common land. An existing furrow, or one that the shepherd has created provides a boundary and the dogs are expected to keep the sheep within an area defined (in part) by that furrow and also safe from harm. Of course they also have to gather and drive the flock, but the above video shows tending which is what they spend most of their time doing.

Do you then think the slope causes any compromise in any of the other gaits, or the jumping?

Almost certainly, they would be less agile. There are always compromises. Their size would be the biggest problem, an 18kg dog could do the same job, but might have trouble with the livestock guardian aspect of the job. Even HGH trials involve protection work.

I think it's a beautiful thing. Imagine that life!

[Staranais]

Thanks, I will watch that!

Probably not a useful style of herding on our sheep farms today, then, but still very interesting to see how people used to do it. I love to watch working sheep dogs, the good ones are absolutely amazing.

[Aidan]

It would be good if someone who knows a lot more about this than I could explain the various parts that influence the top-line visually, and the gait functionally. It is a bit more complicated than just looking at the topline. Hind-quarter angulation is crucial.

I have an old book with judges critiques on historically important dogs, and it's really not as simple as looking at the topline. Some of them had sway backs, for e.g, which were criticised, but they had other good attributes.

[Aidan]

That is ridiculous.

What is ridiculous?

[Kavik]

Didn't Belgians do tending as well? I need to go and look it up I know there are different herding tests and titles to reflect the different styles.