Gsd With Low Prey Drive

[Yesmaam]

Type is a pointless argument, its the breeder who takes the lines and works them to their best on all fronts.

This is simply not true. Have a look around the world and tell me how many SL make a world championship IPO/ SchH team. The answer is very few. If it was just a matter of doing what you were saying then there would be many more SL on the world championship circuit but there isn't. Dogs must qualify to make the teams so work it out for yourself. There are always exceptions to this but in general the WL will out perform everytime.

[malsrock]

I understood it as meaning that nerve strength was not a required trait when a dog was reacting from a prey driven effect???. In other words there would be no difference between the actions of a thick or thin nerved dog when working in prey drive???.

I would expect a dog weak on nerve would flick out of prey drive and into defence quite quickly.

To add to this a thinner nerved dog would generally be more hectic.

I have always associated nerve strength from recovery from an unpleasant experience. An example of thin nerve would be a dog that messes up a jump and falls over it, then panics and won't go near it and becomes frightened. A thicker nerve dog would come a gutser and spring back up for another go???. I know some dogs with excellent recovery and courage that ramp up in prey drive in a hectic way and labelled as lacking nerve, but I don't think they are given their recovery and courage properties

Fiona

Edited September 17, 2010 by malsrock

[malsrock]

Type is a pointless argument, its the breeder who takes the lines and works them to their best on all fronts.

This is simply not true. Have a look around the world and tell me how many SL make a world championship IPO/ SchH team. The answer is very few. If it was just a matter of doing what you were saying then there would be many more SL on the world championship circuit but there isn't. Dogs must qualify to make the teams so work it out for yourself. There are always exceptions to this but in general the WL will out perform everytime.

Ivan Balabanov tested that theory with Apache do Amper a showline dog he competed in the world title finishing 86th. Ivan with the right dog should have either won it or been a top 5 finisher given his training ability. There were 40 odd working line dogs behind him and had similar scores to one of our best working line sporting dogs Nordenstamm Chiller. No doubt Apache and Ivan competing in a local Schutzhund trial here would probably win having the training ability to take the dog to it's limits, but although obviously Apache is a great working showline, he just didn't quite have the performance of the working lines at world level competition.

Fiona

Edited September 17, 2010 by malsrock

[Akayla]

There ARE many WL breeders who have dogs who have health issues.

Can you back up what you just said??? I think its a load of rubbish. Many WL breeders breed dogs with health issues...lol what a load of crap! :D

Believe what you like - you want an extremist view on THE SAME BREED be my guest. Im sure if I go and email said breeders they will all put their hand up I wouldnt name them anyway as they are not being evil or anything just their priorities are in a different place. To be fair there are also SL breeders that dont give a damn either - those that breed only for looks and dont care about the BREED AS A WHOLE. Oh and since I have owned a WL from a military breeder with a VERY good wrap and still produces many many dogs for them and she has had a LOOOONG list of issues. Ive had problems here and there in show lines but non with as many issues as her.

Type is a pointless argument, its the breeder who takes the lines and works them to their best on all fronts.

This is simply not true. Have a look around the world and tell me how many SL make a world championship IPO/ SchH team. The answer is very few. If it was just a matter of doing what you were saying then there would be many more SL on the world championship circuit but there isn't. Dogs must qualify to make the teams so work it out for yourself. There are always exceptions to this but in general the WL will out perform everytime.

Ummm GERMANY? Hello! PS - the GSD is supposed to be the great all rounder (able to work and any job BUT NOT SPECIALISING in anyone thing). They do a good job but for something specific there are better breeds.

Dont F%$#@ up a good breed just because you want it to do something different. Both my SL and WL dogs have had great temperaments. They are all good workers for jobs that suit them. There is something amazing about the GSD, the way they work with you. Personally I want to own a GSD not some "version" someone else decided was so much better!

You want a dog that specialises in your sport go some where else this breed is what it is and extremist "versions" on either side is only going to end badly.

They ARE German Shepherd Dogs!!! Not WL or SL or what not. Pick a good breeder that has considered the breed on a whole and has selected for all things and stays true to the breeds best interest. There are plenty of breeders lately popping up that are working with both types to do this.

PS - some issues that are common in WL. Skin problems. hips and elbows, overly flat and even dipped backs with waaaay to much weight strain. Allergies. bad teeth. short legs and the list goes on. Yes some of these exist in the SL BUT quite a few are specific ONLY to WL because the body shape has been altered too quickly. Its the same as the extremist SL people breeding roach backs ect not any good for the breed.

Its about time people stopped being selfish about this breed and do what is in the best interest after all these "versions" are still the same dog. WL and SL came from the same stock after all.

[Aidan]

I wouldn't buy a dog from any breeder who wasn't willing to admit that all dogs, regardless of breed, purpose or type, carry genes that bring a probability of health issues. If they aren't willing to acknowledge that, they aren't willing to manage it within their breeding program either.

[Yesmaam]

Hey SW and AIDAN, your missing the point!

SW said "There ARE many WL breeders who have dogs who have health issues."

What SW should have said is "There are many WL and SL breeders who have dogs with health issues".

They way it was posted read like WL have the majority of problems which is total crap and straight out of the "GSDCA anti-workingline hand book" ...lol as they both have their fair share of health issues equally.

BTW SW, I am interested to hear your thoughts on the WSSD (a white GSD that is now recognised as a completely separate breed).

[Aidan3]

They way it was posted read like WL have the majority of problems

I didn't interpret it the same way so I wasn't sure what you were up in arms about. Depending on the condition, my understanding is that WL are generally better which is probably related to the low numbers of BYBers, but I know mine has had more than her fair share of health issues. Her hips are brilliant though, an orthopaedic specialist got all excited when he saw her x-rays.

[Kavik]

Mine has skin problems (allergies). Haven't had his hips x-rayed but he seems to be holding up well - runs around no problems, turns 7 at the end of the year. Broke his leg as a puppy doing zoomies in the yard (tad accident prone this one ) but very sweet temperament, easy to handle, great with people, dogs and at the vet. Working line but not registered.

[Akayla]

Hey SW and AIDAN, your missing the point!

SW said "There ARE many WL breeders who have dogs who have health issues."

What SW should have said is "There are many WL and SL breeders who have dogs with health issues".

They way it was posted read like WL have the majority of problems which is total crap and straight out of the "GSDCA anti-workingline hand book" ...lol as they both have their fair share of health issues equally.

BTW SW, I am interested to hear your thoughts on the WSSD (a white GSD that is now recognised as a completely separate breed).

Sorry as I said later both types have issues. SL certainly has some and they have just as many extremist breeders as WL. My point is however there are many WL breeders that are just as bad and since they dont really give a crap about structure generally (so long as it is capable of working for the good part of its life) it seems to come out in health.

They are the "old" kinda breeders. A dog should be able to work and be strong and what ever temp needed till retirement age roughly then they dont really seem to pay any attention to the later years (which can be a very valuable source of knowledge to a breeder as many of the slight conditions that may go un-noticed at first suddenly become obvious). I cant count the number of times breeders like this have just suggested the answer is to PTS an aging animal and get a new one. Its not the point. To have a really healthy line they need to follow up and work on these issues otherwise some just get worse and worse with each generation. Their answer to that well simply cut the line out of their program.

Honestly sad the number of WL breeders Ive delt with that have a real "care less" attitude. Mind you most of these are the big timers that make good money on their stock. The ones that charge a good $1500-$6000 a dog or even more once they are trained up.

What Im getting at is that really both "sides" are in the wrong. Its one breed and while you may have a line that is better at something than others the entire breed needs to meet standards AND be good workers most of the time. Its like we have become to lazy and spoilt. This is what I want now so be buggered the other stuff IM just going to focus everything on what i want so i get it sooner and if the breed suffers it isnt my fault cause it wasnt what I wanted when i wanted it! Rediculous thinking! Come on people!

White GSDs - Swiss Shepherds I have no issue with - they arent my breed of choice but Im sure heaps of people love them. Same as ALL the other branches from the GSD. I have no issue with creating a seperate breed but those of us that own THIS breed need to come together and do what is best for it.

Unless you mean just colour as a random? Im not a GSD colourist All shades are gorgeous they always have been a part of the breed - I wouldnt want to see anyone of them dissapear.

Actually i tend to favour the WL colours and also the sables and solid blacks (blues ect are also very pretty) but thats not the important part of the dog. Obviously temp, health ect must be a first priority.

As i said there are plenty of breeders now working to combine both types to get back the original dog much like germany where a work temp is very important. ;)

[kateshep]

As i said there are plenty of breeders now working to combine both types to get back the original dog much like germany where a work temp is very important.

Though I do agree there are health issues such as HD, ED, bloat, allergies in both working and show lines, I have to very much disagree with what is written above.

Sorry that is the worst thing that can happen. The current showlines are a complete distortion in structure if you compare them to the "original" gsds. Combining them structurally may help the showlines but not the working type who have remained fairly unchanged over time. That type of structure mixed in the workings lines, a big no no for me. Not the mention combining the temperament of the showlines, who are linebred generation and generation upon dogs who lack the ability to handle pressure and have strength of nerve to the strong aggression in some working lines would be disasterous.

[Akayla]

Ummm WL have changed dramatically from what people refer to as "old style" GSDs. WL have definatley changed big time

Also there was no one "style" that was perfect. If you actually trace the different lines right back you will see that just like today back then there were fads. GSDs have been all over the place.

Like when that very popular stud was used by everyone - he had terribly short legs and for a good while most GSDs had too short a legs.

WL AND show line have dogs that are bad in structure. All you have to do is look to see that. Plenty of heavy build, dipped backed ect GSDs in WL. Plenty that suffer the same issues + more.

They all came form the same original stock - so you cant argue that SL will corrupt the WL. Of course you need sensible breeding but believe it or not there are some great SL's that are good workers (I own one) and adding some WL that have very good structure (just as rare) together could be a really good thing.

You might be happy to see a great breed slowly and slowly be ripped apart with BOTH distorting the breed and not thinking about its future but Im not. Again we are speaking of ONE breed. What is the point of sticking your head in the sand about that?

Whether you like it or not they are the one breed, came from the same stock and should be breed to benifiet the breed.

Frankly anyone that is WL perfect and the only correct version is no better than the SL people that think WL has nothing to offer.

same dog people, same dog.

[Staranais]

They all came form the same original stock - so you cant argue that SL will corrupt the WL. Of course you need sensible breeding but believe it or not there are some great SL's that are good workers (I own one) and adding some WL that have very good structure (just as rare) together could be a really good thing.

I will start by saying that I am not a GSD person - they were one of the breeds I considered when I got my current WL, but I went with another shepherd breed for several reasons. But my question is, what does the SL GSD have to offer the WL, that can't be found within WL dogs?

That is a genuine question, by the way. When I was breeder hunting a few years back, I just didn't see a single SL GSD (or SL belgian for that matter) that I was interested in owning or working. Even SL dogs that were claimed to be good working dogs tended to only be agility dogs, or perhaps obedience dogs - they & their progeny didn't have full schutzhund titles, were not working in the police or as MWD or operational in SAR, etc - so they weren't what I'd call impressive workers.

So, I guess I am asking what would the WL GSD gain from an infusion of SL blood? I just don't understand what problems that would solve.

[Yesmaam]

So, I guess I am asking what would the WL GSD gain from an infusion of SL blood? I just don't understand what problems that would solve.

I totally agree. SL needs WL more than WL needs the SL. There are planty of WL with sound structure etc... and all the conformation/ breed survey titles to back it up.

[Akayla]

Because A) they are one breed and these extremist divisions do nothing in the end to better the breed.

B) I have never seen a WL that Im completely happy with either.

C) There are not "plenty" of good conformation WL. IF you start looking for WL from scratch it can be quite difficult to find such a dog and the ones that I have seen that are as good could be SL - only the breeders choice has meant otherwise.

Look if you are genuinely interested I say keep an open mind and go out and look at ALL GSDs. What would it offer? An end to people using type as an excuse. An end to people being confused about what a GSD actually is and a better dog all round.

Saying but i dont feel like it when it comes to your breed to me says you shouldnt be breeding. This is the breed. End of story. You dont like it - dont own it. Simple.

WL GSD lovers often will come into a subject and talk about how bad SL temps are. What then is the solution? Either you agree with it or you dont. SL people dont like WL conformation, they dont like it then they should work towards something better.

I dont like the health issues in WL and the over exagerated body type. So I work towards a good GSD that does what it is meant to do - not SL or WL. That kind of bias should have no place in breeding. Either its good for the dog or it isnt.

YOu might not have seen any working drive in SL but I have. The bitch I have right now has naturally stood up and defended me and she has already saved one life. Thats not agility ect thats actual drive. I know from experience what a good dog is like in those situations and she has hard nerve thats for bloody sure! Nothing bothers this bitch. She has a very high prey drive ect. Its alot to deal with ;) But i love her and I wouldnt have her any other way or to me she wouldnt be a GSD.

A GSD should be like that. A GSD should be of good health. A GSD SHOULD look a certain way as there is a reason behind that.

If you look at some of the all time great breeders (not just whats in Australia) you will see they usually have dogs that are show worthy and fantastic workers.

The GSD isnt a Mal or anything else so trying to push the breed to be like others just so they can win ribbons is rediculous!

If this was reversed and you were hearing a SL person saying they were better because they win ribbons in shows would you not think that was stupid? So when a WL person says oh but they won this or that it means only that they have achieved one part of what a GSD should do. Where is the rest?

The two areas I would direct you to look into is read "the genetic history of the German Shepherd Dog" a great read! Really puts things into perspective of how the breed has evolved to where it is.

And to look at the dogs in Germany. The show lines there by the way have to compete in schutzhund to be able to then go onto to show. Thats how it should be. They should also make excellent family pets and be able to sit still for 5 bloody minutes They should adapt to any line of work. AHhhh Im trying to think of that guys name... who is the last nomadic sheep herder who breeds dogs that go on to show by the way ...very interesting seeing them do what they used to be used for alot. Really helps understand the way they are set up.

Again I dont believe in EITHER extreme. I think both need work and I think the "oh no dont mix them together" is BS! They are one dog - come from the same dogs and should be going in the same direction. If someone out there has the perfect dogs sure they dont need to add anything to their lines but no reason they cant help add to others. We should all be working towards the one dog.

sorry this has been a rushed answer Im off to the dentist

Its different for people who are just buying for a pet but breeders should be less selfish and more about what is good for the dogs and the breed. It might take a bit longer to get a dog that is both SL and WL able but its worth it.

You want to buy from a breeder that only wants WL well thats your choice but no way will i buy from a baised breeder who isnt working towards a good dog end of story.

There are issues in both lines and they need to be addressed honestly and the types need to be gotten rid of. People could still buy from certain lines that are better at this or that but the generally type should be the same.

PS - Yessman there are probably hundreds of GSDs with working titles doesnt mean they are perfect now does it?

[Staranais]

Thanks for the reply, it is interesting to see where you are coming from. I would never say that all the SL I have seen have had no working drive, but the difference in temperament between SL and WL from what I have personally seen to date have been pronounced.

C) There are not "plenty" of good conformation WL. IF you start looking for WL from scratch it can be quite difficult to find such a dog and the ones that I have seen that are as good could be SL - only the breeders choice has meant otherwise.

What are the conformation flaws & health flaws you see in WL and not in SL, though? & do you think any flaws in the WL could be removed by breeding WL dogs, or in your opinion is an infusion of SL blood necessary to fix these issues?

The two areas I would direct you to look into is read "the genetic history of the German Shepherd Dog" a great read! Really puts things into perspective of how the breed has evolved to where it is.

I'll try to get a hang of it, thanks - do you have the name of the author?

And to look at the dogs in Germany. The show lines there by the way have to compete in schutzhund to be able to then go onto to show. Thats how it should be. They should also make excellent family pets and be able to sit still for 5 bloody minutes :D They should adapt to any line of work. AHhhh Im trying to think of that guys name... who is the last nomadic sheep herder who breeds dogs that go on to show by the way ...very interesting seeing them do what they used to be used for alot. Really helps understand the way they are set up.

Why isn't that the case in Aus & NZ, though? Why don't we have the german system here, that a dog must be Sch titled before it can be shown in conformation? The way it is, doesn't that mean that a SL dog does not need to show any working talent at all in order to be bred? And more importantly, doesn't it mean that a breeder can breed GSD without knowing what good nerves & good drive actually are, since they've never trained a GSD in schutz or any working discipline (perhaps never even watched a schutz trial)?

Thanks for your answers, & hope the dentist isn't too vicious towards you...

[kateshep]

Shadowwalker:

Ummm WL have changed dramatically from what people refer to as "old style" GSDs. WL have definatley changed big time

I don't know what you mean by this statement ? to me many of the working lines look very similiar in comparison to the the earlier dogs in the breed's history.

WL AND show line have dogs that are bad in structure. All you have to do is look to see that. Plenty of heavy build, dipped backed ect GSDs in WL. Plenty that suffer the same issues + more.

I won't dispute that there are working lines of course with structural faults but imho it doesn't compare to the drastic structural showlines have moulded into over the past 30-40 years.

They all came form the same original stock - so you cant argue that SL will corrupt the WL. Of course you need sensible breeding but believe it or not there are some great SL's that are good workers (I own one) and adding some WL that have very good structure (just as rare) together could be a really good thing.

Yes they all came from the original stock 100 years ago, however during the 70's-early 80's the genetic diveristy in top winning VA groups began to dwindle with the exclusion of certain bloodlines which would provide the desired show conformation. Hence we have the cookie cutter looks today( black/red- roach back- over angulated in the rear). There was alot more variety in the genetics back then why ?? and what changed?? $$$$ making gsd shows & breeding into a big money making businesss.

You might be happy to see a great breed slowly and slowly be ripped apart with BOTH distorting the breed and not thinking about its future but Im not. Again we are speaking of ONE breed. What is the point of sticking your head in the sand about that?

It was ripped apart by people who wanted to change the breed by dumbing down the working ability tests that would allow them to breed upon lines which were weaker in temperament but provided the extreme exaggerated conformation, that has nothing to do with actual work but someone's ideal of beauty and side gait. Sticking your head in the sand is saying they are the same, last time was in the 60's and 70's, not now. Back to what I said originally, after generations and generations of selective breeding upon the narrowed gene pool of selective show winning bloodlines with working ability put priority wise down the line, why would a working breeder want to introduce that type of genetics ? Not to mention- That STRUCTURE is absolutely not desireable, sorry.

[Akayla]

Im on my phone at the moment but I promise to try get pictures to help. Yes I would say some WL are as bad as SL in the change if structure.

GSDs do have long backs and they are meant to have some curve and they are meant to have other points too. Ai said if you check out some of my references you can se what I mean.

I'm sure that both SL and WL "could" do the changes without mixing the blood but you a) lose blood lines that could be very valuable and increase the frequency of others. B) It would not help with the division of breeders. There are already to many people that think what they want in the bed is what is best with no regard to anyone else. Humans can be very single minded when we want to be and although we think we know brr stick to our biases opinions. We need each other, we need working dog enthusiasts and those that love show to keep each other even.

Yes I like the set up Germany has and if not Schutzhund then something else that helps determine working ability. I do appreciate the effort though some are making with the tests already in place. It would be good though to se it made more difficult for those that cheat.

i think there are breeders that don't understand the working side of the GSD but I think you either start to learn or give up pretty quick in most cases. After a few disasters you learn quick so I respect those that learnt though different avenues and time.

I wouldn't day I'm an expert either. My early learning came from watching others and trying to do the same. I'm not a dog sport person really just hung around a lot of military dog people which started me down a road of exploration.

So i understand how people like that can feel about SL but as I've said over and over they are just ONE breed and if you look at the Germans with their beautiful dogs that are so accomplished in all areas you start to see where we should be. Division doesn't help. You can't deny the show side anymore than you can deny the work half.

Once you see some good dogs up close you can really appreciate how beautiful the breed is when bred right. I've seen this with good show lines and I've heard of a working line.

But first we need to get rid of extreme types in the breed.

ETA: sorry of anyof this doesnt make sense or is weird. I should wait till after the medication wheres off

Edited September 21, 2010 by Shadow walker

[Yesmaam]

GSDs do have long backs and they are meant to have some curve

Yes I like the set up Germany has and if not Schutzhund then something else that helps determine working ability.

I do appreciate the effort though some are making with the tests already in place.

Take a look at the very early pics of the GSD. There is no curve in the back.............. The back is very flat much like many WL dogs. The show world bred in the curve and over time exaggerated it to get the "roach back". This is not what the original GSD's were like.

There are no tests in place in Australia.... There is no need to find an alternative to SchH either. We just have to suck it up and get on with it.

Edited September 22, 2010 by Yesmaam

[Akayla]

There are tests. Its called breed survey. Might not be your ideal but frankly Im glad we at least have something. Imagine if we didnt! There would be some real issues here then.

You keep calling the dogs roach backs and that is an incorrect term. There are some roach backs but the majority of dogs you are using it to refer to are not.

You may have looked at a few photos. Then you will be able to tell me some of the structure issues that were a real problem back then? I doubt you have done much more than look at a few examples of GSDs at a time when the shape was varied. Its like i could say in 20 yrs time come back to this date and find photos of only flat backed GSDs and declare there were no GSDs like SL.

There was also no GSDs that looked like the over exaggerated WL either. Now that i have never seen a picture of.

There was a curve in the back - Ive seen it. Maybe not as obvious as today you can argue that but to say it didnt exist is wrong. Its not so much about the curve anyway its about the seperate parts that make up that look. If you want to get technical.

Again I suggest you have a read of that book. Its very interesting.

[kateshep]

When it comes to the nitty gritty of questioning alot of showline breeders/owners will say the dogs don't have a "roach" it is curved a little and it is supposed to be like that. (someone decided it makes for a supposed stronger back- not in the standard funnily enough) but I disagree that it is in anyway desireable nor functional. As I already said many WL breeders don't want the type of genetics that has produced the type of extreme conformation changes or the lack of selective pressure for working ablility- which has all come about for linebreeding on the same narrower genetic base than what is provided already in the WLs- so HOW can they lose out by not breeding into those lines ? Why introduce lines that are linebred for traits they don't want ?

Remember it was the SL breeders who took the breed in a much more dramaticaly changing direction, please don't take a dig at others breeders who didn't or currently don't want to buy in that change. Instead you should be questioning the need SL breeders had for distorting a working dog.

Yesmaam wrote :

There is no need to find an alternative to SchH either

Exactly.