Gsd With Low Prey Drive

[malsrock]

I can personally say that I would choose a SL over a WL, only because the SL's hips and elbows scores are way better then the WL's atm, however, I would own a sable WL in a heartbeat. WL shepherds are often bought by people who want a dog, little do they know that if not stimulaed the yard, the clothes on the line etc, will be gone from a highly driven bored dog.

My girl is just shy of 12 months and her mother was a dead horse, her dad had spunk but i found him irratic. My girl is so prey driven and wants to work constantly. Showing bores her, but we only do it every now and then, however, chuck a specialty collar on and ask her to run and she loves it.

One of my colleagues (sp?) owns a black WL bitch, the prey drive is there, however the ability to think whilst in drive. Is not. I find this becoming a reoccuring problem in the GSD lines of both. I may be biased, but whilst training, if i whip out a tug, my pup can hold it together, the WL bitch, cannot. Her daughter has low drives and is disinterested in most food and has nothing to do with toys.

So I think if you want to say a SL can't do what a WL can, I think you're wrong. I plan to title my bitch in ANKC obedience and in IPO. She has what it takes. She may be the only one in the litter that does as her brother is exactly like his mother.

It doesn't matter whether this dog is WL or SL, what matters is where she came from, what's happened to her, and how much time is spent with the dog daily. See if you can take her home, build her confidence, let her be a dog. As per the STAY issue. Maybe try not walking away. Try telling her the stay command and step straight infront of her, feed her, thats how we teach it in basic class.

I'm not having a go at you, or your ideas I just am sick of SL are worth nothing, WL can do anything! stereotype.

Without going into a SL v's WL argument, and back to the topic, I would guess that PP's GSD lacks the genetics to display even an average amount of prey drive that should be in the dog.

May be worth cutting your losses and finding another dog to study at Uni if you need something with drive.......

Hi

RKD92,

Working and showline GSD's are bred for a different purpose based upon a different priority platform for what the progeny needs to achieve. To breed a litter with working potential, you don't use a "dead horse" dam in hope that a more driven sire will prop up the litter, but in a show breeding, the "dead horse" dam may have a conformation trait that is highly desirable to improve the breeders conformation lines and is bred for that purpose. A working line breeder wouldn't use that dam regardless of her conformation as the likelihood of producing low drive progeny is a major undesirable trait in a working litter as an example. It's not about which line is better, it's about choosing the line most suitable for what you want to achieve with your dog. You don't buy a working line dog for a showing career or a show line dog for Schutzhund competition if you want best opportunity to win.....horses for courses The same applies with goals to win in Schutzhund you wouldn't use a bitch by choice either as it's more likely to attain higher levels of social aggression from a male which will generally produce higher scores in protection phase. There are exceptions to the rule, but the sporting basics are well tried and tested by the people who do win on a regular basis...........us amateur dog men and women don't need to try and re-invent the wheel

Regarding hip and elbow scores, working line breeders need their dogs to have physical performance and is no advantage for an ethical working breeder to produce progeny with poor joints as the deficiency will show up much faster working a dog and as someone else mentioned is complete nonesense. Show line dogs have no physical advantage bodily over a working line dog that is bred for speed, agility and manouverablilty, in fact many show line dogs are heavy and cumbersome in comparison especially the large show line males.

The point of my post is that we need to keep in perspective what the show and working lines are bred for as the show lines are equally as disadvantaged on the sporting field as a working line dog is disadvantged in the show ring which is simply as I mentioned before.........horses for courses

Good luck with your girl RKD92, I wish you well

Fiona

Edited September 11, 2010 by malsrock

[malsrock]

it's not enough nerve to hold the drive before 'too much' drive. Lack of nerve is why many shepherds now whine and carry on like pork chops, they cant hold in the excitement, anxiety or drives.

Are you sure that's a nerve related behaviour Nek???, Nerve as I understand it is determined by the rate of recovery from a bad experience or pain threshhold and ability to work under pressure. My Mal was a cronic pork chop performer in prey drive especially when back tied...........I know where you are coming from in the behaviour described, but lack of drive containment off the top of my head I would say is more a training issue than nerve strength, or a handler allowing the behaviour which the dog has learned yip, yap squawk achieves the reward perhaps???

Fiona

Edited September 11, 2010 by malsrock

[Staranais]

A good dog is a good dog but on average SL don't produce what I think SL breeders think they produce.

I agree with that strongly. When I was looking for my current dog (SAR trainee) I had a couple of breeds in mind, & I approached a lot of breeders & owners, asking for recommendations. I considered a bull breed for a while for several reasons, and the other varieties of belgian, but I couldn't find a single appropriate breeder. Turns out that most breeders just don't understand the difference between good working temperament & an active pet. And how could you, I guess, if you'd never worked a dog before? For example I talked to many SL breeders who assured me their dogs would be suitable for a working career, despite having no/few dogsport or working titles in their pedigrees, since apparently they just loved to play with tennis balls - a little bit different to what I was after.

I hope you do well with your dog, RKD92. There's always someone who beats the odds & puts Sch3 on a show dog, or a conformation championship on a working dog, and perhaps that person will be you. At the end of the day, a good dog is a good dog, no matter where they come from. Have you had your girl assessed for suitability yet by a schutzhund club?

[Yesmaam]

.

Edited September 12, 2010 by Yesmaam

[Nekhbet]

Are you sure that's a nerve related behaviour Nek???, Nerve as I understand it is determined by the rate of recovery from a bad experience or pain threshhold and ability to work under pressure. My Mal was a cronic pork chop performer in prey drive especially when back tied...........I know where you are coming from in the behaviour described, but lack of drive containment off the top of my head I would say is more a training issue than nerve strength, or a handler allowing the behaviour which the dog has learned yip, yap squawk achieves the reward perhaps???

working in prey drive can be pressure for a dog. Especially when people build it more and more, the dog can't balance and BANG you end up with a lunatic. Yes training does have a part to do with it but if the nerve isnt there to help the dog through it then you have a problem. It's seen also in some Australian bred Malinois, bred for super high drive without the nerve to hold it and you just end up with a nut that is a PITA to train.

[Pink Panther]

So when you guys are talking about dogs with super high drive, is this drive that the dog has naturally whenever it sees the prey item? And did you have to tranfer the drive from an object that the dog naturally has drive for, to a tug? Just asking because one of my own dogs has prey drive when I have a furry toy on a string that moves across the ground, but he loses interest completely once I pick it up. How are dogs like these taught to maintain interest and stay in drive once the object is no longer in a prey-like position aka on the ground? And is this something that has to be done while the dog is young?

[Yesmaam]

Are you sure that's a nerve related behaviour Nek???, Nerve as I understand it is determined by the rate of recovery from a bad experience or pain threshhold and ability to work under pressure. My Mal was a cronic pork chop performer in prey drive especially when back tied...........I know where you are coming from in the behaviour described, but lack of drive containment off the top of my head I would say is more a training issue than nerve strength, or a handler allowing the behaviour which the dog has learned yip, yap squawk achieves the reward perhaps???

working in prey drive can be pressure for a dog. Especially when people build it more and more, the dog can't balance and BANG you end up with a lunatic. Yes training does have a part to do with it but if the nerve isnt there to help the dog through it then you have a problem. It's seen also in some Australian bred Malinois, bred for super high drive without the nerve to hold it and you just end up with a nut that is a PITA to train.

I know what your talking about Nekhbet but I think its more the case that the prey drive actually enables the dog to go through with the work. I have seen plenty of thin nerve dogs and with the few that make the grade its usually due to a good amount of prey drive ie: if the dog didn't have as much prey drive it would not cope. These types of dogs are usually very hectic but in the end its the massive prey drive that gets them over the line.

[Yesmaam]

So when you guys are talking about dogs with super high drive, is this drive that the dog has naturally whenever it sees the prey item? And did you have to tranfer the drive from an object that the dog naturally has drive for, to a tug? Just asking because one of my own dogs has prey drive when I have a furry toy on a string that moves across the ground, but he loses interest completely once I pick it up. How are dogs like these taught to maintain interest and stay in drive once the object is no longer in a prey-like position aka on the ground? And is this something that has to be done while the dog is young?

My experience with high prey driven dogs is that even at a young age ie: 5-6wks old the pup cannot ignore a prey object no matter what it is. Genetics cause the pup to chase no matter what. I breed my own WL GSD's and at 5-6 wks old they bite, pull, grab, hold on, "pig root" and chase just about anything that is thrown in front of them. Genetics is the reason why they do it and all I do is manipulate it to get what I want. I definitely agree that early development is critical but this is more from a sport point of view ie: teaching calm grip early and other behaviours etc.... The theory is that windows can be shut if nothing is done early but if the dog has prey drive it has it and will at least show you something. I also won't waste time with a dog that has low drive as SchH is hard enough without having a dog with low drive to add to your problems.

Edited September 12, 2010 by Yesmaam

[Yesmaam]

I can personally say that I would choose a SL over a WL, only because the SL's hips and elbows scores are way better then the WL's atm,

S

Just got my hips and elbow scores back for my WL male. 2-2 hips and 0-0 elbows. You can't get much better than that. Also, at a recent presentation at the GSDCQ by the Queensland Police Dog Squad Dog Development Officer, he said that their breeding program is based on WL GSD's only and that they only breed with hips of less than a total of 10. The GSDCA max allowed for breeding is a total of 16 and they are a 99% SL club so there you go. It would be safe to say your theory is flawed.

[Erny]

I can personally say that I would choose a SL over a WL, only because the SL's hips and elbows scores are way better then the WL's atm ...

Where have the stats for this information/statement come from?

[Yesmaam]

I can personally say that I would choose a SL over a WL, only because the SL's hips and elbows scores are way better then the WL's atm ...

Where have the stats for this information/statement come from?

No where, its rubbish............

[malsrock]

Are you sure that's a nerve related behaviour Nek???, Nerve as I understand it is determined by the rate of recovery from a bad experience or pain threshhold and ability to work under pressure. My Mal was a cronic pork chop performer in prey drive especially when back tied...........I know where you are coming from in the behaviour described, but lack of drive containment off the top of my head I would say is more a training issue than nerve strength, or a handler allowing the behaviour which the dog has learned yip, yap squawk achieves the reward perhaps???

working in prey drive can be pressure for a dog. Especially when people build it more and more, the dog can't balance and BANG you end up with a lunatic. Yes training does have a part to do with it but if the nerve isnt there to help the dog through it then you have a problem. It's seen also in some Australian bred Malinois, bred for super high drive without the nerve to hold it and you just end up with a nut that is a PITA to train.

I was taught to train my Mal in prey drive only, when young, on the understanding that training in prey drive didn't pressure the dog and to avoid training in defence at all costs intially to avoid pressure too early???. I guess there can be training extremes to drive building, but I had never heard of prey drive training creating pressure on the dog until you mentioned it in relation to nerve strength...........but thanks for the clarification, I understand what you mean

Fiona :p

[malsrock]

'Staranais' date='12th Sep 2010 - 09:30 AM' post='4805848']

A good dog is a good dog but on average SL don't produce what I think SL breeders think they produce.

I agree with that strongly. When I was looking for my current dog (SAR trainee) I had a couple of breeds in mind, & I approached a lot of breeders & owners, asking for recommendations. I considered a bull breed for a while for several reasons, and the other varieties of belgian, but I couldn't find a single appropriate breeder. Turns out that most breeders just don't understand the difference between good working temperament & an active pet. And how could you, I guess, if you'd never worked a dog before? For example I talked to many SL breeders who assured me their dogs would be suitable for a working career, despite having no/few dogsport or working titles in their pedigrees, since apparently they just loved to play with tennis balls - a little bit different to what I was after. :p

That's a very good point you have raised Staranais, I have experienced that myself with some confusion looking for a pup of working potential. I actually have more respect for a breeder who say's they don't know or their dog's perhaps may not be suitable, but I have spoken with many who claim their dogs in both show and working lines are terrific candidates although a working title hasn't existed in their pedigrees or progeny for 5 or 6 generations To take a punt and purchase a pup from a breeder who's never worked a dog to determine for themselves the traits required I think is a huge gamble with a high potential for disappointment.

fiona

[malsrock]

So when you guys are talking about dogs with super high drive, is this drive that the dog has naturally whenever it sees the prey item? And did you have to tranfer the drive from an object that the dog naturally has drive for, to a tug? Just asking because one of my own dogs has prey drive when I have a furry toy on a string that moves across the ground, but he loses interest completely once I pick it up. How are dogs like these taught to maintain interest and stay in drive once the object is no longer in a prey-like position aka on the ground? And is this something that has to be done while the dog is young?

A dog with high genetic prey drive will chase anything and try and capture it. A highly prey driven dog in your example when picking up a prey item off the ground, the dog will jump at you to get it, may even bite your hands to get the item if they are in the way It's not really a drive you need to tempt them with to do, they just chase and capture as part of their make up. My working line Malinois will chase and retrieve a ball for as long as you throw it or until he is exhausted, infact, you have to put the ball away otherwise he drives you nuts with it. If you bring out the tug and he see's it, he will leap at it with intensity before you have time to hold it properly for him to grab and will bite it hard too. They are so intense on a tug toy, you can lift them off the ground and swing the dog around and they won't let go until trained to do so. The harder you try and pull a tug from their mouth, the harder they hang on to it :p

It's quite an extreme eye opening experience to play with a high prey driven working dog compared with an average ball motivated pet.

Fiona

[Nekhbet]

I was taught to train my Mal in prey drive only, when young, on the understanding that training in prey drive didn't pressure the dog and to avoid training in defence at all costs intially to avoid pressure too early???. I guess there can be training extremes to drive building, but I had never heard of prey drive training creating pressure on the dog until you mentioned it in relation to nerve strength...........but thanks for the clarification, I understand what you mean

you're talking about bitework which has some difference to teaching something like pure obedience in prey. You dont want to flip a pup out of prey too early unless they are ready for it. Now you are dealing with more then a dog chasing a sleeve in prey, we're wanting a dog to stand its ground and try and actively fight the decoy. Push that too hard too fast you break the dog.

When I said pressure I dont mean it in a purely negative way. All heightened reaction places some type of pressure on the dog. Thats how they learn. How they then deal with that pressure comes down to genetics and training

I can personally say that I would choose a SL over a WL, only because the SL's hips and elbows scores are way better then the WL's atm,

S

I dont agree with this either

[malsrock]

I was taught to train my Mal in prey drive only, when young, on the understanding that training in prey drive didn't pressure the dog and to avoid training in defence at all costs intially to avoid pressure too early???. I guess there can be training extremes to drive building, but I had never heard of prey drive training creating pressure on the dog until you mentioned it in relation to nerve strength...........but thanks for the clarification, I understand what you mean

you're talking about bitework which has some difference to teaching something like pure obedience in prey. You dont want to flip a pup out of prey too early unless they are ready for it. Now you are dealing with more then a dog chasing a sleeve in prey, we're wanting a dog to stand its ground and try and actively fight the decoy. Push that too hard too fast you break the dog.

When I said pressure I dont mean it in a purely negative way. All heightened reaction places some type of pressure on the dog. Thats how they learn. How they then deal with that pressure comes down to genetics and training

I can personally say that I would choose a SL over a WL, only because the SL's hips and elbows scores are way better then the WL's atm,

S

I dont agree with this either

I was using bitework as an example, but more to highlight my understanding of pressure created by different drives in regard to nerve strength. I read something Helmut Raiser wrote about his belief that working a dog in prey drive doesn't pressure the dog as it's reacting from a pleasure stimulus. It went on to say that creating fighting drive from prey drive is more desirable that creating fighting drive from defence as it doesn't place the pressure on the dog that working in defence does and doesn't require the genetic nerve strength for the dog to cope.

I understood it as meaning that nerve strength was not a required trait when a dog was reacting from a prey driven effect???. In other words there would be no difference between the actions of a thick or thin nerved dog when working in prey drive???.

Fiona

Edited September 13, 2010 by malsrock

[Akayla]

I think people get to hooked up on type and not enough on the breeder. First off I've owned both types and not only have I had a lot of experience myself I'm lucky tho have some one that has a huge amount of knowledge when it comes to working dogs.

I have a SL and yes I think she has great drive. So does her dam and her father is an import. She passed this on to nearly all her pups (one in a working home). However there are plenty of breeders out there who have soft dogs for sure. There ARE many WL breeders who have dogs who have health issues. Not only have I delt with this first hand I have spoken to breeders who so long as the dog can do it's job for a reasonable time its got great health. Not that they don't score their dogs just that they are so focused on the temp. of the dog they lose track of other things (same goes for some SL breeders and winning conformation). Therefore they have lines with shorter life spans.

Type is a pointless argument, its the breeder who takes the lines and works them to their best on all fronts. The GSD being the great all rounder. That's why I will chose the breeder who does this, as i want a GSD not some subspecies . Sure thats harder and means less choice probably more travel but i think its worth it.

Also. I wouldn't pick the dog up when it drops as for some submissive types this is a great reward and they continue the behaviour. I'm sure you can get this dog to work reasonably well just find the right form of approach for that dog

(ETA: to make sense since typing it all out on the phone did not :D)

Edited September 16, 2010 by Shadow walker

[Erny]

I understood it as meaning that nerve strength was not a required trait when a dog was reacting from a prey driven effect???. In other words there would be no difference between the actions of a thick or thin nerved dog when working in prey drive???.

I would expect a dog weak on nerve would flick out of prey drive and into defence quite quickly.

[Yesmaam]

There ARE many WL breeders who have dogs who have health issues.

Can you back up what you just said??? I think its a load of rubbish. Many WL breeders breed dogs with health issues...lol what a load of crap!

[Yesmaam]

I understood it as meaning that nerve strength was not a required trait when a dog was reacting from a prey driven effect???. In other words there would be no difference between the actions of a thick or thin nerved dog when working in prey drive???.

I would expect a dog weak on nerve would flick out of prey drive and into defence quite quickly.

To add to this a thinner nerved dog would generally be more hectic.