Gsd With Low Prey Drive

[huski]

Depends how much drive she needs. You can definitely build drive in lower drive dogs if you know how

[Nekhbet]

Hey I agree. Buying a showline in Australia with the intent of Sch3 is like purchasing a clubsport and heading to Bathurst. There is a teeny, weeny chance you may succeed. But it's tiny and sheer luck on striking it right.

For the purposes of basic prey drive training I would say there are some show shepherds out there that can. I wouldnt say many, most I have tried look at me like I'm stupid or go to sleep unless food comes out that is. Herding breeds like borders, kelpies, cattle dogs etc seem to still have better prey then a lot of the SL shepherds I have seen.

I would guess that PP's GSD lacks the genetics to display even an average amount of prey drive that should be in the dog.

with that I do totally agree. I dont plug away with the drive I want the dog to use, I let the dog decide what drive will be most effective and rewarding.

[Flaves]

Is the dog from the pound?

Maybe she had a bad experience and her natural drives were suppressed? It may just take her more than 3 days to build her confidence and let her natural prey drive come through...just a thought anyway

[Pink Panther]

Thanks for all the thoughts guys, I agree she's that maybe her drive is suppressed, she's living in the "pound" situation, in a run and only gets out when people take her, and she's very quiet in general. Should I add she's a longhair? She's got a very flat back and she's quite prancy, but still has that big GSD trot, so I guess her appearance adds to the thought that she's not a high drive dog to start with

[Pink Panther]

oh, and her colour is very light too, but I worked her with food today and she did very well, she likes it when I reward by throwing the food, in fact she gets very engaged when the movement comes from me

[Sammy88]

oh, and her colour is very light too, but I worked her with food today and she did very well, she likes it when I reward by throwing the food, in fact she gets very engaged when the movement comes from me

What you should do is build up her confidence first, as the history of her is unknown due to being in a pound she may be stepping back due to a previous abusive owner who treated her harshly when not completing exactly what she was told to do, hence this reaction.

The pound may not be the best environment to bring out these prey drives given there may be a number of animals there that she feels less dominant too possibly reducing her drive.

Just Work on her, build her trust and confidence in you and the natural prey drive of the wonderful GSD will come through it may take a week or months just depending on the individual dog. colour and long/short hair will most likely not affect her drive.

And try not to rush the process, believe in her.

[aussielover]

what exactly is prey drive?

I have often heard playing tug and/or chasing after a moving object in association with prey drive.

My puppy likes to play tug and will chase after things that are thrown for her but i'm sure a lot of dogs also like to do these things. HOw do you tell if a dog has high prey drive?

Is food drive any different to just being hungry or wanting to eat?

[huski]

what exactly is prey drive?

I have often heard playing tug and/or chasing after a moving object in association with prey drive.

My puppy likes to play tug and will chase after things that are thrown for her but i'm sure a lot of dogs also like to do these things. HOw do you tell if a dog has high prey drive?

Prey drive is a dog's desire to chase and grab a moving item.

Some dogs have different degrees of prey drive. K9 Pro has a few articles on his website that discuss it in a bit more detail;

http://www.k9pro.com.au/pages.php?pageid=79

http://www.k9pro.com.au/pages.php?pageid=55

Is food drive any different to just being hungry or wanting to eat?

There is a difference between food exchange and food drive. You can tell the difference between a dog just taking a treat because you give it to them, and a dog who is working in food drive.

[aussielover]

There is a difference between food exchange and food drive. You can tell the difference between a dog just taking a treat because you give it to them, and a dog who is working in food drive.

How can you tell?

[Staranais]

what exactly is prey drive?

I have often heard playing tug and/or chasing after a moving object in association with prey drive.

My puppy likes to play tug and will chase after things that are thrown for her but i'm sure a lot of dogs also like to do these things. HOw do you tell if a dog has high prey drive?

Is food drive any different to just being hungry or wanting to eat?

We've had this discussion a lot on the forum (not having a go at you! Just saying, ha ha, expect lots of different opinions, as people use the term "drive" in different ways & everyone thinks they're right).

I personally don't call it a drive unless there's adrenaline associated with it. So for example I think just exchanging food for behaviours is different to training in food drive (where the dog is very aroused and adrenalised by the food). I think the state of adrenaline/arousal is rewarding in and of itself, hence the distinction between food training & food drive training is an important one. But this is just my opinion, and some people will say they are training in food "drive" whenever they use food.

IMO a dog with some prey drive will chase balls (if it has learned that chasing balls will satisfy its drive). Whereas a high drive dog will chase tennis balls until it drops, ignoring competing motivators (food, water, etc).

It's not only how high the drive is though, it is also how strong the dog's nerves are as this can affect when the drive is expressed, also how high is the threshold for the drive. A complicated subject, but a very interesting one.

[Kickss]

Ok, then I would assume your GSD is from show/ pet stock which is most likely why she isn't prey driven. Many show and pet quality GSD's are not bred to work so the genetics are lost over time. It started back in the 70's and is well entrenched and not a one off. If your after a GSD that is highly prey driven you would have better luck with a workingline GSD. BTW most workingline GSD's don't look like your typical GSD either. They range in colour from back through to dark sable and usually have much flatter backs. Their temperament is usually completely different to that of a showline GSD. The main focus in the workingline is the working ability and they are bred from generation after generation of success in the Schutzhund arena.

It can depend. Some 'show' lines with imported or higher drive dogs can still have a decent amount of prey drive, you just wont see it pop up as often or at all in some litters. (This i agree with!!)

I guess it depends on what you call decent. I have a showline pup in my SchH/ IPO club that is from show imports with working titles. The dog has very little drive and imo is typical of showline GSD's. Most of the showline GSD's i have seen (be it from imports or ozzie bred) are of a lesser working standard to most of the workingline GSD's I have seen. The same thing is seen around the world as the number of showline GSD's competing at the WUSV's is minimal compared to the number of workingline.

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I can personally say that I would choose a SL over a WL, only because the SL's hips and elbows scores are way better then the WL's atm, however, I would own a sable WL in a heartbeat. WL shepherds are often bought by people who want a dog, little do they know that if not stimulaed the yard, the clothes on the line etc, will be gone from a highly driven bored dog.

My girl is just shy of 12 months and her mother was a dead horse, her dad had spunk but i found him irratic. My girl is so prey driven and wants to work constantly. Showing bores her, but we only do it every now and then, however, chuck a specialty collar on and ask her to run and she loves it.

One of my colleagues (sp?) owns a black WL bitch, the prey drive is there, however the ability to think whilst in drive. Is not. I find this becoming a reoccuring problem in the GSD lines of both. I may be biased, but whilst training, if i whip out a tug, my pup can hold it together, the WL bitch, cannot. Her daughter has low drives and is disinterested in most food and has nothing to do with toys.

So I think if you want to say a SL can't do what a WL can, I think you're wrong. I plan to title my bitch in ANKC obedience and in IPO. She has what it takes. She may be the only one in the litter that does as her brother is exactly like his mother.

It doesn't matter whether this dog is WL or SL, what matters is where she came from, what's happened to her, and how much time is spent with the dog daily. See if you can take her home, build her confidence, let her be a dog. As per the STAY issue. Maybe try not walking away. Try telling her the stay command and step straight infront of her, feed her, thats how we teach it in basic class.

I'm not having a go at you, or your ideas I just am sick of SL are worth nothing, WL can do anything! stereotype.

Without going into a SL v's WL argument, and back to the topic, I would guess that PP's GSD lacks the genetics to display even an average amount of prey drive that should be in the dog.

May be worth cutting your losses and finding another dog to study at Uni if you need something with drive.......

Hey I agree. Buying a showline in Australia with the intent of Sch3 is like purchasing a clubsport and heading to Bathurst. There is a teeny, weeny chance you may succeed. But it's tiny and sheer luck on striking it right.

For the purposes of basic prey drive training I would say there are some show shepherds out there that can. I wouldnt say many, most I have tried look at me like I'm stupid or go to sleep unless food comes out that is. Herding breeds like borders, kelpies, cattle dogs etc seem to still have better prey then a lot of the SL shepherds I have seen.

I would guess that PP's GSD lacks the genetics to display even an average amount of prey drive that should be in the dog.

with that I do totally agree. I dont plug away with the drive I want the dog to use, I let the dog decide what drive will be most effective and rewarding.

[corvus]

I'm not convinced that being in an adrenalised state is inherently rewarding. Considering an adrenalised state is associated with a stress response, and that usually entails flight or fight (in a simplistic categorisation of possible behaviours when in that state), it doesn't make sense to me that it would be rewarding. Same goes for arousal. There is obviously good arousal and bad arousal. IMO we ought to be more interested when training in what makes arousal good or bad and how to manipulate the "goodness" in whatever activity we are doing. Dopamine is associated with sympathetic nervous system activation (which is the domain of adrenaline), but is also associated with the crazy, energetic, exciting pleasure from things like anticipation, reward-seeking, social activities and addictions. To me, that is the system where it's all at for training, and drive is just the innate level of (or capacity for?) motivation and arousal a dog has (which, incidentally, is also theorised to be largely controlled by the number of a particular dopamine receptor an individual has).

But, what do I know? I like Jaak Panksepp's drive theory. He's a theorist in the field of affective neuroscience, which for those that are unfamiliar with psychology terms (i.e. nearly everyone that isn't a psychologist) means he looks to understand emotions at a neural level. He groups all behaviours in mammals into emotional systems: panic, rage, fear, seek, play, care and lust. The groupings are based on different neural pathways. I guess some think he's a crackpot, but probably because he picked up where Freud left off, and a lot of people aren't very comfortable with Freud or emotions. Steven Lindsay certainly takes him very seriously. If that means anything to anyone.

[Staranais]

One of my colleagues (sp?) owns a black WL bitch, the prey drive is there, however the ability to think whilst in drive. Is not. I find this becoming a reoccuring problem in the GSD lines of both.

That's at least partly training. My young mally bitch used to absolutely lose her head when she went into prey drive, she is becoming much better as she learns she must display self control and focus to earn the reward. Higher drive can give a better performance for many disciplines once the dog has itself under control.

So I think if you want to say a SL can't do what a WL can, I think you're wrong. I plan to title my bitch in ANKC obedience and in IPO. She has what it takes. She may be the only one in the litter that does as her brother is exactly like his mother.

Good luck! Let us know how you do. Have you had her assessed by an IPO training club yet?

Some SL definitely have what it takes to work, I think everyone here will agree on that. I think most people will also agree that if you specifically want a dog to work to a high level, it is smart to stack the odds in your favour and buy a WL dog. Just like if you want to get into conformation showing and do well, it is smart to buy a SL dog.

[Staranais]

I'm not convinced that being in an adrenalised state is inherently rewarding. Considering an adrenalised state is associated with a stress response, and that usually entails flight or fight (in a simplistic categorisation of possible behaviours when in that state), it doesn't make sense to me that it would be rewarding. Same goes for arousal. There is obviously good arousal and bad arousal. IMO we ought to be more interested when training in what makes arousal good or bad and how to manipulate the "goodness" in whatever activity we are doing.

Sorry for posting twice in a row! Corvus, I am not sure exactly which hormone or neurotransmitter causes the inherently reward feeling to a dog of working in drive, but I am certain from observation that the reward exists, and it appears to be associated with (if not directly caused by) the adrenaline dump that my dogs get working in drive. The reward may caused by adrenaline, it may be something else that gets released in the brain when the dog works. To be frank (and no offence intended), neuroscience isn't my favourite subject, so as long as I get the training results reliably I don't care what molecules are causing it. LOL.

[Nekhbet]

One of my colleagues (sp?) owns a black WL bitch, the prey drive is there, however the ability to think whilst in drive. Is not. I find this becoming a reoccuring problem in the GSD lines of both. I may be biased, but whilst training, if i whip out a tug, my pup can hold it together, the WL bitch, cannot. Her daughter has low drives and is disinterested in most food and has nothing to do with toys.

I'd be wondering if this is a training issue in the working bitch. Too much drive without control work =

[Kickss]

Staranais - I completely agree with you, you walk into an IPO club and there will always be "But it's a showline" and I'm prepared for that. To be completely honest, I didn't even want this bitch to start with. I wanted a male from a different litter. The breeder asked if I wanted her and I said I'd try her out. She's perfect for me. She has amazing stamina for an unfot dog newly recovered from muscle damage. I'm still considering my male, but at the moment my next dog will be when I have a bigger yard, and it's going to be a Malinois!!

Nekhbet - I'm not totally sure on what training, if any other then what we've been doing, that this bitch has had. I think she was bought for the "I have a working line shepherd" line, more so then for what she originally said she wanted the dog for. We've come to blows over the lines before. She out right told me my dog wouldn't accomplish anything because of her lines, who she was from and the way she had been raised. Showline, my breeder i trust, and family working dog... I think each to their own, I love shepherds regardless, but I wish the stereotype would cease.

PinkPanther- Just try building trust with the dog, play games, keep it fun. Maybe she's so stressed and needs someone she can turn to???

[Nekhbet]

Nekhbet - I'm not totally sure on what training, if any other then what we've been doing, that this bitch has had. I think she was bought for the "I have a working line shepherd" line, more so then for what she originally said she wanted the dog for. We've come to blows over the lines before. She out right told me my dog wouldn't accomplish anything because of her lines, who she was from and the way she had been raised. Showline, my breeder i trust, and family working dog... I think each to their own, I love shepherds regardless, but I wish the stereotype would cease.

ahhhh. And from this we can see how much handler influence can impact on performance Could be a great dog just very poorly handled/trained hence you see the worst come out instead of the best. Saying that she also could just have poor nerve

[Kickss]

ahhhh. And from this we can see how much handler influence can impact on performance Could be a great dog just very poorly handled/trained hence you see the worst come out instead of the best. Saying that she also could just have poor nerve

Who the dog or the owner? I'm kidding, I understand what you're saying. It could be, I don't know her breeding so it could be too much GO in her lines and she can't cope. I suppose the right handler/trainer with her would be able to bring out the best. Surely.

[Nekhbet]

it's not enough nerve to hold the drive before 'too much' drive. Lack of nerve is why many shepherds now whine and carry on like pork chops, they cant hold in the excitement, anxiety or drives.

[Yesmaam]

"So I think if you want to say a SL can't do what a WL can, I think you're wrong"

I beg to differ and It's not what I think RKD92, it's what is seen right around the world. Do your homework and tell me how many SL compared to WL make the world championships each year..... 5% maybe... If its a lucky year???? To make a world team most countries have qualifying trials. Obviously SL dogs are not making the scores to make the teams or we would see many more.

A good dog is a good dog but on average SL don't produce what I think SL breeders think they produce. As far as hips etc in the WL... That comment was rubbish. There is good and bad atm in both SL and WL and no better or worse than each other (with the exception that MOST WL don't have the "roach back" that is commonly seen in the SL).