Vocal Dogs In The Ring And Etiquette

[SnoPaws]

Thanks PF

We are working on it, it isn't something I am just ignoring. As I said when he barks he does bounce/bob (NOT jump and up down) as does any dog when the bark and he then puts his perfectly stacked up front out, which isn't a good look so I would prefer he doesn't

We have been working on his focus for a year but he is a dog with very little drive and zero food drive which is challenging for me but we are sort of getting there. If you saw the difference between and year ago and now you would know what I mean

Over the next few weeks I will try to teach him talk on cue along side the quiet cue. Maybe I can get him to talk just before he enters the ring and again afterwards and ask him to be quiet while we are in the ring. Rather than just trying to get a very vocal dog to be quiet.

I used to take rescue remedy when we first started showing might be a good idea to get another bottle

What might be worth a try is to teach a "watch" cue. Have him look up at you and reward for focus and quietness. (having food in your mouth can help this) Try holding a toy also. Extend the duration of the "watch" cue until you can hold a couple of minutes without noise. Then take it to shows and practice it outside the ring.

If he's focussed on another task he's unlikely to want to bark if he knows the reward ONLY comes for quietness.

What foods have you tried as rewards? What DOES motivate him?

We have the "look" cue which works and I reward for but after a few minutes he will bark, so I ask for quiet and when he is quiet and calm again I will reward him again. He doesn't lose focus on me when he barks and usually doesn't take his eyes off of me while he barks, so I really don't think it is a focus issue. Gawd I explained that well ;)

I haven't tried food in my mouth so I will give it a go, we use everything from roast chicken and steak, to cheese, kabana, hot dog, schmackos, dog chockies, you name it we have tried it.

The couch motivates him, his breeder calls him Mr Cool and the the most laid back dog she has ever bred

Over the top vocal praise works for him as well as a clear release

Although I don't think I made myself very clear, I can take him in the ring he will perform like a robot, not bark and be perfectly behaved but he will also put his ears and tail down and mope around, the moment I ask for even just a little animation he barks. So I suppose we are walking a very fine line, I am hoping with age and as I get better I can get the animation with no noise That's why I thought Angelsuns idea of shaping his behaivour may be a good one??

[poodlefan]

Although I don't think I made myself very clear, I can take him in the ring he will perform like a robot, not bark and be perfectly behaved but he will also put his ears and tail down and mope around, the moment I ask for even just a little animation he barks. So I suppose we are walking a very fine line, I am hoping with age and as I get better I can get the animation with no noise That's why I thought Angelsuns idea of shaping his behaivour may be a good one??

Shaping just means waiting for him to offer the desired behaviour, marking and rewarding it. It can be challenging to shape a cessation of behaviour and frustrating for the dog.

Ask for animation when you train. Don't reward barking. Reward silence. He'll learn to offer the behaviour that pays off for him. All you'll have done is caused the desired behaviour rather than waiting for him to offer it.

Edited September 8, 2010 by poodlefan

[Aziah]

My bugbears: squeaky toys, uncontrolled whiney/noisy dogs! Doesn't bother my own dogs, they're too focused on me but it annoys the heck out me...

I 'chuck' bait but only into MY dogs mouth, if it misses it gets picked up

Edited September 8, 2010 by Aziah

[Wazzat Xolo]

Maybe we should have every dog go in by themselves, be judged and then go out again

great idea and in Burqas ( sp??) that would be two fold and stop the face judging!! lol

[RallyValley]

Maybe we should have every dog go in by themselves, be judged and then go out again

great idea and in Burqas ( sp??) that would be two fold and stop the face judging!! lol

We would also need all exhibitors an equal weight and height

[SnoPaws]

Although I don't think I made myself very clear, I can take him in the ring he will perform like a robot, not bark and be perfectly behaved but he will also put his ears and tail down and mope around, the moment I ask for even just a little animation he barks. So I suppose we are walking a very fine line, I am hoping with age and as I get better I can get the animation with no noise That's why I thought Angelsuns idea of shaping his behaivour may be a good one??

Shaping just means waiting for him to offer the desired behaviour, marking and rewarding it. It can be challenging to shape a cessation of behaviour and frustrating for the dog.

Ask for animation when you train. Don't reward barking. Reward silence. He'll learn to offer the behaviour that pays off for him. All you'll have done is caused the desired behaviour rather than waiting for him to offer it.

Okay can I change the wording from shaping to making his behaviour work for me

I can take him down to the park now and I know food treats and toys won't work but I do know he will work for me because he knows afterwards I will release and reward him by allowing him to sniff and snuffle around and pee on a few trees, this is what motivates him. If he doesn't behave we go home. I know this isn't the usual way of training but he isn't a usual dog and it works for us.

I basically do what you said ^^ I don't reward barking and I do reward silence. He barks, I ask for quiet, he is quiet, I reward, he barks again ;)

Interesting

Do you think I have been duped by a dog who is offering unwanted behaviour because he knows I will then ask for the correct behaviour and then reward him for giving the correct response

Edited September 8, 2010 by SnoPaws

[poodlefan]

SP:

Do you think I have been duped by a dog who is offering unwanted behaviour because he knows I will then ask for the correct behaviour and then reward him for giving the correct response

Possibly. My other question is how often have you inadvertantly rewarded barking outside the context of the show ring? Is it an effective method of attention seeking for him?

[SnoPaws]

Yay I got up to four pages in one afternoon

[SnoPaws]

SP:

Do you think I have been duped by a dog who is offering unwanted behaviour because he knows I will then ask for the correct behaviour and then reward him for giving the correct response

Possibly. My other question is how often have you inadvertantly rewarded barking outside the context of the show ring? Is it an effective method of attention seeking for him?

He isn't much of a barker at all outside of the ring and at home, in fact he is probably the quietest, my two bitches and my sibe are very vocal at home. My sibe constantly chats back but it isn't an issue at home or at obedience.

They do all bark when they are out in the paddocks playing but that would be it for him.

[angelsun]

My point is I could bait any of my SBT's off the dog infront and behind, they animate beautifully and are happy to give any dogs the death stare. It makes them look stunning, but it's not fair to the fellow exhibitors, especially the non confrontational Toys and the Gundogs. It intimidates a lot of dogs and it doesn't make for a pleasurable showing experience for the intimidated dog or it's handler.

If I can show some consideration and restraint in the ring and give my fellow exhibitors every opportunity to show their dog at it's best, then those with the jumping, barking, whinging or whatever else they do, can surely do the same.

It applies equally to those who like to chuck bait around, stack on top of you, let their dogs wander up to others or park their bloody trolley full of yapping bastards smack bang in the ring entrance.

Who told you that? I started my time in the dog show world in the terrier ring when terriers WERE real terriers and sparring was an artform. We baited off each other and if we were fortunate to be in the BIS ring, we did the same off the dog to the front and to the rear, in that case it would be a working dog (Utility) in front and a toy dog behind. We knew how close to be to not intimidate the toy dog, however it should be noted that many more toy dogs often went off and attempted to attack anything around it and the handlers did nothing to stop it.

The terrier ring was tough and loud and intimidating then and our working group (Utility) was the same (before they split into the herding group as well) Not a place for the weak that's for sure! Perhaps this generation of showies just doesn't have the scar tissue that some of us oldies have and this is why we simply snort about the whingers complaining about something so simple as a dog barking in the ring?

[angelsun]

Maybe we should have every dog go in by themselves, be judged and then go out again

great idea and in Burqas ( sp??) that would be two fold and stop the face judging!! lol

Only if we forced the handlers to wear paper bags over their heads....

[poodlefan]

Angelsun:

Perhaps this generation of showies just doesn't have the scar tissue that some of us oldies have and this is why we simply snort about the whingers complaining about something so simple as a dog barking in the ring?

Or maybe things are different in Oz where most folk don't spend thousands titling their dogs, pro handlers are the rarity rather than the norm and the overwhelming majority of exhibitors still display some level of courtesy and sportsmanship towards their fellows.

The old and bolds can snort all you like. I consider it nothing more than good manners to ensure that my dog's behaviour doesn't disadvantage others. I certainly don't expect that others should have to manage their dogs to accommodate mine.

As I said in my earlier post, things happen. Dogs are not robots. But if the behaviour happens week in and week out in the ring then its a training issue.

[WreckitWhippet]

My point is I could bait any of my SBT's off the dog infront and behind, they animate beautifully and are happy to give any dogs the death stare. It makes them look stunning, but it's not fair to the fellow exhibitors, especially the non confrontational Toys and the Gundogs. It intimidates a lot of dogs and it doesn't make for a pleasurable showing experience for the intimidated dog or it's handler.

If I can show some consideration and restraint in the ring and give my fellow exhibitors every opportunity to show their dog at it's best, then those with the jumping, barking, whinging or whatever else they do, can surely do the same.

It applies equally to those who like to chuck bait around, stack on top of you, let their dogs wander up to others or park their bloody trolley full of yapping bastards smack bang in the ring entrance.

Who told you that? I started my time in the dog show world in the terrier ring when terriers WERE real terriers and sparring was an artform. We baited off each other and if we were fortunate to be in the BIS ring, we did the same off the dog to the front and to the rear, in that case it would be a working dog (Utility) in front and a toy dog behind. We knew how close to be to not intimidate the toy dog, however it should be noted that many more toy dogs often went off and attempted to attack anything around it and the handlers did nothing to stop it.

The terrier ring was tough and loud and intimidating then and our working group (Utility) was the same (before they split into the herding group as well) Not a place for the weak that's for sure! Perhaps this generation of showies just doesn't have the scar tissue that some of us oldies have and this is why we simply snort about the whingers complaining about something so simple as a dog barking in the ring?

No one has to tell me that it's no longer acceptable and especially not acceptable to bait your bull breed off the Toy infront and intimdate it. It's not acceptable for anyone's dog to go off and attempt to attack another dog inside or outside of the ring and last time I read the rules, there was an obligation to reports dogs acting aggressively, regardless of breed.

You assume a lot don't you about people's age, experience and where they've been during their show careers, but then again, you seem to think you know it all.

But hey, my dogs aren't bothered by the barking, jumping up and down, eye balling, exhibitors running up your arse or the bastards yapping in the trolley in the middle of the ring entrance. I sure as hell feel sorry for those that are, it turns what could otherwise be an enjoyable experience and fun into hard work.

Do whatever you need to do for the 10 cents ribbon or the $10 sash and to hell with everyone else.

[Wazzat Xolo]

and they call the sport fun!!!

No wonder so many newbies are put off I hope they dont read this thread the wrong way!!

[Silvawilow]

My bugbears: uncontrolled whiney/noisy dogs! Doesn't bother my own dogs, they're too focused on me but it annoys the heck out me...

+1

[fifi]

I have to admit to not enjoying some of the pro-handler style handling thats creeping in. The over animated dogs, the manouvering of dog & handler to obscure those actually IN the lineup, the subtle moving into your space as you move off, the excess noise, bait, and pantomine.

I go to enjoy a weekend with my dogs, friends, and to show my dog on a playing field where sportsmanship in honoured and you feel that with a good dog you have a sporting chance.

fifi

edited to fix stuff !

Edited September 8, 2010 by fifi

[poodlefan]

Fifi:

I have to admit to not enjoying some of the pro-handler style handling thats creeping in. The over animated dogs, the manouvering of dog & handler to obscure those actually IN the lineup, the subtle moving into your space as you move off, the excess noise, bait, and pantomine.

Ah yes and the stacking of ringside with your cronies to cheer wildly when your dog is gaited.

Edited September 8, 2010 by poodlefan

[Rebanne]

I can take him down to the park now and I know food treats and toys won't work but I do know he will work for me because he knows afterwards I will release and reward him by allowing him to sniff and snuffle around and pee on a few trees, this is what motivates him. If he doesn't behave we go home. I know this isn't the usual way of training but he isn't a usual dog and it works for us.

I basically do what you said ^^ I don't reward barking and I do reward silence. He barks, I ask for quiet, he is quiet, I reward, he barks again

as you have said a reward is what the dog wants, it doesn't have to be food or a toy. In the above his reward is the sniffing and peeing. Maybe try lengthening the time he has to wait between your command of quiet and the arrival of the reward. Maybe reward without the command, don't wait for him to bark. See what the training forum has to say

[fifi]

Fifi:

I have to admit to not enjoying some of the pro-handler style handling thats creeping in. The over animated dogs, the manouvering of dog & handler to obscure those actually IN the lineup, the subtle moving into your space as you move off, the excess noise, bait, and pantomine.

Ah yes and the stacking of ringside with your cronies to cheer wildly when your is gaited.

:laugh: Oh no, my jig is up !!! time to find a new rent a crowd !!!

I remember when mobile phones were first on the scene, people were even using them to distract at ringside !!!

Maybe I'm just jealous because I'm not the shape for a miniskirt or low cut top to grab those fringies !!!

fifi

[poodlefan]

Maybe I'm just jealous because I'm not the shape for a miniskirt or low cut top to grab those fringies !!!

fifi

Fret not Fifi!

You've still got fear and intimidation in your repertoire. Make sure to turn your Wolfie round and bait off the Group 5 dogs.