Puppy Farm Awareness Rally

[Souff]

I heard of a similar situation in Queensland and yes, the owners did desex their dogs rather than pay thousands in fees to council.

Tell her to let her breeding dogs live inside with her and rent out the council approved kennels .... if she can afford to build them.

Souff

[oakway]

Oakway

Also if you are showing and consistently producing winning stock it goes a long way to prove that you are genuine about breeding dogs.

Hmm, not always, as you know.

And I am NOT having a go at you. I would never do that. Never

None of these moves to licence/inspect/regulate/harrass/torment and annoy breeders will improve the lives of registered purebred dogs one iota.

Steve (another thread)

Before they can stop pets being sold in pet shops they have to change federal law .

They have to have real stats and figures and not quote numbers which are so easily refuted.

While ever any push to stop pets being sold in pet shops is based on opinion and assumption those pushing it will be seen as rednecks.

There are no hard stats.

Why does federal law need to be changed to outlaw pets from pet shops?

the opinion I got didn't think so.

I don't give a rats what people breed, as long as the pups are as healthy as they can be, and the parents are kept as they should be kept. Which is NOT in those abortions called puppy farms. OodlieDoodlies which I think are a bit of a joke, and cross breds are all good with me. Not purebreds, but not their fault, and purebreds are not always what people want.

50 years in the future, if there are any dogs remaining - the citizens of the time will be appalled that the primitive people of the 20th and 21st century were so very backward that they thought it was satisfactory to keep such a social intelligent being as a dog, which had proved time and again, his worth to man, in squalid, disgusting conditions, where he suffered terribly and didn't develop his full potential.

And that governments failed to take the necessary steps to free him from this cruelty.

Unfortunately there are always too many people with different agendas involved in things of this type, and the altruistic ones who want only freedom and happiness for the dogs, are bulldozed, and the dogs continue to suffer.

Why do I bother?

The parents are kept as they should be kept? Who decides what is the way the parents should be kept? Many people who keep their dogs in kennels on concrete floors do so because they have no choice because that is what their council says they have to do to own them. In fact most people who keep their breeding dogs in numbers of more than say 3 or 4 which sleep in the house and live the way I think they should live are doing so illegally. They are the rougue breeders and they are the ones who will be pinged with any new laws - not the ones who have complied with council planning laws and have lots of pens with concrete floors. The dogs are removed from their loungerooms though many would prefer they could keep their dozen or so small breed dogs inside the house with them. Most of us are breaching council by laws and most of us do everything we can to avoid council or RSPCA visits because we know they will make us keep our dogs differently if they allow us to keep them at all.

I spoke with a registered breeder today from Queensland She owns 160 acres and owns 6 dogs and has been living where she does for over 10 years in a rural zone. She now has to pay $1500 permit fee to be able to breed dogs on her property as well as yearly rego fees and council engineers are now assessing what she will need to do to be able to get this permit as far as housing for her dogs are concerned. Her breed doesnt cope well with being separated from each other and they have lived in the house all their lives. She is going to desex her dogs and never breed again if they make her house them in kennels to be able to breed them. I dont blame her. She is a rougue breeder.

Steve if you are referring to my comment as to rogue breeders you may have misunderstood my meaning. I meant the breeders doing it for rip offs. Nothing to do with caring breeders.

[Steve]

Oakway

Also if you are showing and consistently producing winning stock it goes a long way to prove that you are genuine about breeding dogs.

Hmm, not always, as you know.

And I am NOT having a go at you. I would never do that. Never

None of these moves to licence/inspect/regulate/harrass/torment and annoy breeders will improve the lives of registered purebred dogs one iota.

Steve (another thread)

Before they can stop pets being sold in pet shops they have to change federal law .

They have to have real stats and figures and not quote numbers which are so easily refuted.

While ever any push to stop pets being sold in pet shops is based on opinion and assumption those pushing it will be seen as rednecks.

There are no hard stats.

Why does federal law need to be changed to outlaw pets from pet shops?

the opinion I got didn't think so.

I don't give a rats what people breed, as long as the pups are as healthy as they can be, and the parents are kept as they should be kept. Which is NOT in those abortions called puppy farms. OodlieDoodlies which I think are a bit of a joke, and cross breds are all good with me. Not purebreds, but not their fault, and purebreds are not always what people want.

50 years in the future, if there are any dogs remaining - the citizens of the time will be appalled that the primitive people of the 20th and 21st century were so very backward that they thought it was satisfactory to keep such a social intelligent being as a dog, which had proved time and again, his worth to man, in squalid, disgusting conditions, where he suffered terribly and didn't develop his full potential.

And that governments failed to take the necessary steps to free him from this cruelty.

Unfortunately there are always too many people with different agendas involved in things of this type, and the altruistic ones who want only freedom and happiness for the dogs, are bulldozed, and the dogs continue to suffer.

Why do I bother?

The parents are kept as they should be kept? Who decides what is the way the parents should be kept? Many people who keep their dogs in kennels on concrete floors do so because they have no choice because that is what their council says they have to do to own them. In fact most people who keep their breeding dogs in numbers of more than say 3 or 4 which sleep in the house and live the way I think they should live are doing so illegally. They are the rougue breeders and they are the ones who will be pinged with any new laws - not the ones who have complied with council planning laws and have lots of pens with concrete floors. The dogs are removed from their loungerooms though many would prefer they could keep their dozen or so small breed dogs inside the house with them. Most of us are breaching council by laws and most of us do everything we can to avoid council or RSPCA visits because we know they will make us keep our dogs differently if they allow us to keep them at all.

I spoke with a registered breeder today from Queensland She owns 160 acres and owns 6 dogs and has been living where she does for over 10 years in a rural zone. She now has to pay $1500 permit fee to be able to breed dogs on her property as well as yearly rego fees and council engineers are now assessing what she will need to do to be able to get this permit as far as housing for her dogs are concerned. Her breed doesnt cope well with being separated from each other and they have lived in the house all their lives. She is going to desex her dogs and never breed again if they make her house them in kennels to be able to breed them. I dont blame her. She is a rougue breeder.

Steve if you are referring to my comment as to rogue breeders you may have misunderstood my meaning. I meant the breeders doing it for rip offs. Nothing to do with caring breeders.

No I didnt even see your comment - I was referring to the statement made by Jo Helper saying they would bring in new laws if he is re-elected in Victoria to shut down rougue breeders.

[~Anne~]

Kate wasn't from Freedom. Freedom was owned by a family, and the head honcho was a man by the name of Peter... (and I can't recall his surname).

Kate was the daughter of the Freedom family. Peter was the father. He was killed in an accident a few years ago. 2? 3?

Her DOL name was Kate - something or other. It may have been before your time (although I woudn't have thought so) but she was a member here for some time

Ask an older member, or ask Troy.

I couldn't be bothered posting lies. The point was that although Kate was on this forum, and posted, I know little about Freedom - but I know quite a lot about some other puppy farms, and they are what I based my comments on.

Edit Just remembered her DOL name - Staceycate I think. Probably been banned as every time she posted she got abused!

To be honest, I don't take as much notice as I should so I don't recall her.

Settle Jed, no-one is saying you post lies normally, or are in this instance. People question because they like to know answers, being questioned doesn't equate to not believing.

[Erny]

I was referring to the statement made by Jo Helper saying they would bring in new laws if he is re-elected in Victoria to shut down rougue breeders.

Hhhmph. OT ..... But the same Joe Helper who reinstated the PPCollar ban? And the same Joe Helper who proposed and bull-dozed through the latest Bill comprising of laws that give Councils power to kill our dogs on the spot; to kill our dogs after holding for only 48 hours; to fine us just for not having a Council tag on our dogs' collars (unless we've trotted them around the show ring within the preceding 12 months, of course ); that extend the BSL?

I'd like to see what a Liberal candidate would be willing to do not only in relation to a tidy up of indiscriminate and poor breeding practices but of all the other laws that affect our dogs and see if we can't score something better.

Edited September 21, 2010 by Erny

[oakway]

Oh I am so sorry, I have been looking at list for to long since last Saturday. I think I shall go and TRY and relax and watch the Vicar Of Dibley.

[AussieDog]

So, what do breeders propose to shut down puppy farms?

GayleK asked the big question five pages ago and unless i'm blind i can't see anyone that has specifically answered it.

Oscars Law should be a good thing. It's about stopping/improving large scale commercial breeding facilities and the sale of pets in pet shops. There would be many thousands of dogs around Australia that would benefit from these proposed changes and who knows, if Australia implements them perhaps other countries would follow?

The greater good people.

[Steve]

I was referring to the statement made by Jo Helper saying they would bring in new laws if he is re-elected in Victoria to shut down rougue breeders.

Hhhmph. OT ..... But the same Joe Helper who reinstated the PPCollar ban? And the same Joe Helper who proposed and bull-dozed through the latest Bill comprising of laws that give Councils power to kill our dogs on the spot; to kill our dogs after holding for only 48 hours; to fine us just for not having a Council tag on our dogs' collars (unless we've trotted them around the show ring within the preceding 12 months, of course ); that extend the BSL?

I'd like to see what a Liberal candidate would be willing to do not only in relation to a tidy up of indiscriminate and poor breeding practices but of all the other laws that affect our dogs and see if we can't score something better.

No hope there.They are agreeing with them. They have posted a similar statement and they havent even made a whimper in the last few years over the crap laws Victoria have introduced.

[Steve]

So, what do breeders propose to shut down puppy farms?

GayleK asked the big question five pages ago and unless i'm blind i can't see anyone that has specifically answered it.

Oscars Law should be a good thing. It's about stopping/improving large scale commercial breeding facilities and the sale of pets in pet shops. There would be many thousands of dogs around Australia that would benefit from these proposed changes and who knows, if Australia implements them perhaps other countries would follow?

The greater good people.

In July I sat at a table beside kate Scoffeld and Fiona Douglas - the president and the CEO of the Australian Association of Pet Dog Breeders and any hint that Oscars law or any other will ever stop commercial breeding of puppies is so far off being even conceivably possible its a joke.The RSPCA know this and its why the definition of a puppy farmer si someone who breeds dogs in substandard conditions to keep us all on the same level and under the same conditions regardless of how many we breed. No matter where any one lives there are already ample laws in place to ensure that dogs are kept the way they tell us they should be kept via council planning laws - see the photo of Banksia Park earlier in this thread.

[Erny]

No hope there.They are agreeing with them. They have posted a similar statement and they havent even made a whimper in the last few years over the crap laws Victoria have introduced.

Ok. Looks like I stand.

"Erny's Law". Three in one. Puppy farms; PPCollars; BSL. .

Sorry for the OT. Just dreamin'.

[shortstep]

So, what do breeders propose to shut down puppy farms?

GayleK asked the big question five pages ago and unless i'm blind i can't see anyone that has specifically answered it.

Oscars Law should be a good thing. It's about stopping/improving large scale commercial breeding facilities and the sale of pets in pet shops. There would be many thousands of dogs around Australia that would benefit from these proposed changes and who knows, if Australia implements them perhaps other countries would follow?

The greater good people.

In July I sat at a table beside kate Scoffeld and Fiona Douglas - the president and the CEO of the Australian Association of Pet Dog Breeders and any hint that Oscars law or any other will ever stop commercial breeding of puppies is so far off being even conceivably possible its a joke.The RSPCA know this and its why the definition of a puppy farmer si someone who breeds dogs in substandard conditions to keep us all on the same level and under the same conditions regardless of how many we breed. No matter where any one lives there are already ample laws in place to ensure that dogs are kept the way they tell us they should be kept via council planning laws - see the photo of Banksia Park earlier in this thread.

Steve,

'will ever stop commercial breeding of puppies'

I bet.

Aussiedog

I appreciate the way you are qualifying the language now. Time to start to changing the rhetoric, from 'Close down puppy farms' to 'Improving large scale breeding facilities'. More to the point and it sounds so much nicer to call them facilities. Ta

I think we can all now start to agree on the agenda and outcomes.

The more regulated dogs breeding becomes, the more pups will be produced in large breeding establishments. Home breeders can not afford nor will want to, turn their homes and their lives with their dogs into a highly regulated dog breeding business. Especially when purebred dog breeders are continually promoted as producing inbred sick puppies.

I would think the puppy farmers are happy, in agreement with the animal rights protestors and fully support the idea of heavy regulations on ANKC small home breeders. They know most small home breeders will stop breeding under this pressure and this means their sales at the "large scale breeding facilities' will go up.

We can rest assured that the new government approved and RSPCA inspected large scale breeding facilities will do a good job. No more concerns that puppy farm dogs and puppies, opps I mean large scale breeding facility dogs and puppies are a welfare issue.

Once the dust settles, they will take on their new role as legitimate, inspected and approved facilities and become the primary producers of pet dogs for Australia families.

For the greater good.

Edited September 21, 2010 by shortstep

[Lhok]

No hope there.They are agreeing with them. They have posted a similar statement and they havent even made a whimper in the last few years over the crap laws Victoria have introduced.

Ok. Looks like I stand.

"Erny's Law". Three in one. Puppy farms; PPCollars; BSL. .

Sorry for the OT. Just dreamin'.

Erny I'd vote for that

--Lhok

[Steve]

So, what do breeders propose to shut down puppy farms?

GayleK asked the big question five pages ago and unless i'm blind i can't see anyone that has specifically answered it.

Oscars Law should be a good thing. It's about stopping/improving large scale commercial breeding facilities and the sale of pets in pet shops. There would be many thousands of dogs around Australia that would benefit from these proposed changes and who knows, if Australia implements them perhaps other countries would follow?

The greater good people.

In July I sat at a table beside kate Scoffeld and Fiona Douglas - the president and the CEO of the Australian Association of Pet Dog Breeders and any hint that Oscars law or any other will ever stop commercial breeding of puppies is so far off being even conceivably possible its a joke.The RSPCA know this and its why the definition of a puppy farmer si someone who breeds dogs in substandard conditions to keep us all on the same level and under the same conditions regardless of how many we breed. No matter where any one lives there are already ample laws in place to ensure that dogs are kept the way they tell us they should be kept via council planning laws - see the photo of Banksia Park earlier in this thread.

Steve,

'will ever stop commercial breeding of puppies'

I bet.

Aussiedog

I appreciate the way you are qualifying the language now. Time to start to changing the rhetoric, from 'Close down puppy farms' to 'Improving large scale breeding facilities'. More to the point and it sounds so much nicer to call them facilities. Ta

I think we can all now start to agree on the adgenda and outcomes.

The more regulated dogs breeding becomes, the more pups will be produced in large breeding establishments. Home breeders can not afford nor will want to, turn their homes and their lives with their dogs into a highly regulated dog breeding business. Especially when purebred dog breeders are continually promoted as producing inbred sick puppies.

I would think the puppy farmers are happy, in agreement with the animal rights protestors and fully support the idea of heavy regulations on ANKC small home breeders. They know most small home breeders will stop breeding under this pressure and this means their sales at the "large scale breeding facilities' will go up.

We can rest assured that the new government approved and RSPCA inspected large scale breeding facilities will do a good job. No more concerns that puppy farm dogs and puppies, opps I mean large scale breeding facility dogs and puppies are a welfare issue.

Once the dust settles, they will take on their new role as legitimate, inspected and approved facilities and become the primary producers of pet dogs for Australia families.

For the greater good.

yep.

[Souff]

So, what do breeders propose to shut down puppy farms?

GayleK asked the big question five pages ago and unless i'm blind i can't see anyone that has specifically answered it.

Oscars Law should be a good thing. It's about stopping/improving large scale commercial breeding facilities and the sale of pets in pet shops. There would be many thousands of dogs around Australia that would benefit from these proposed changes and who knows, if Australia implements them perhaps other countries would follow?

The greater good people.

I may not have said it in this thread, but I have said it plenty of times before.

LICENSE ALL BREEDERS.

Then POLICE the bluddy laws that are already in place and police any new laws that relate to the licensing.

As it stands at the moment the only breeders who can be traced easily are the registered breeders - the ones who are answerable to their governing authority.

The others get off scot free and are not answerable to any body.

That includes the mum and dad breeders who just want their pet to have a litter, and everyone else through to the biggest of puppy farmers (whatever they are by all the various crazy definitions)

If you want to breed animals, then be responsible and be licensed.

It is not rocket science, and it aint a perfect idea, but as things stand at the moment the good (registered) breeders are the only one who cop the flak!!!

This crazy idea you Victorians have got about trying to shut down kennels, or telling councils not to approve breeding kennels, is totally counterproductive and can only lead to the problem being pushed underground. IT WILL DO NOTHING TO STOP MASS BREEDING OF ANIMALS.

Flush them out into the open, licence them, and fine them hard if they are not licensed, or then shut them down for non-compliance.

POLICE THE LAWS PROPERLY AND FAIRLY, have an appeals clause for those who are unfairly targetted, and you might get somewhere.

You need a license to drive a car, you need a licence to shoot, to fish, to sell certain goods, and all of these have a followup penalty system.

You should not be allowed to breed dogs unless you are licensed to breed dogs, imho.

Do the wrong thing and expect to pay the fine.

But make sure that any licensing scheme is policed by the POLICE, not the other lot.

Souff

[Guardienne]

I certainly don't support Baillieu's pledge. In fact I am very against his proposals. And I don't support making life difficult for ethical breeders.

I do have problems however with some people's arguments "why should I let someone into my home" and "who should have the right to tell me what I can and can't do with my dogs"......

If you are breeding and selling "anything" you should be transparent, open to scrutiny and open to inspection. No matter what your business. And as with anything else that is sold, you have to have regulation to protect the animals in your care and to protect the people purchasing from you.

Every one of us that sell things do so under legislation. Why are you so special?

Edited September 21, 2010 by Guardienne

[Jed]

Steve

and the pet shop industry says thats not true - we dont source our puppies from puppy farmers

Pet shops source 70 - 90% of their stock from puppy farms. I don't care who said what and who is ducking and weaving, that is fact. The puppies are presented in good condition, and eminently purchasable, apart from the ones with parvo, as those regularly supplied by a recently prosecuted Qld pf.

The pups dont look llke the parents, you know, it takes a while to get dogs into that despicable condition.

Just to clarify - my definition of a puppy farm is an agricultural establishment, were dogs are kept as agricultural animals, in sheds or paddocks,with only sufficient human interaction to maintain life

Steve

In July I sat at a table beside kate Scoffeld and Fiona Douglas - the president and the CEO of the Australian Association of Pet Dog Breeders and any hint that Oscars law or any other will ever stop commercial breeding of puppies is so far off being even conceivably possible its a joke.The RSPCA know this and its why the definition of a puppy farmer si someone who breeds dogs in substandard conditions to keep us all on the same level

I hope you disenfected your hands afterwards.

That may be so, but the definition of a PF by the RSPCA is incorrect, and is intended to be be used to control registered breeders, not necessarily puppy farmers.

Breeders will not lie down for that.

BAN THE SALE OF PUPS IN PET SHOPS.

IT IS POSSIBLE. IT CAN BE DONE ONE A STATE BASIS, ON WELFARE GROUNDS, AND NOT ON FAIRTRADING LAWS.

There can be NO 'IMPROVEMENT" TO PUPPY FARMS.

There can only be bans.

For the sake of the dogs. voiceless and suffering horrible torture day after day

The RSPCA has the means to inspect and remove dogs, councils have the right to make determinations in some areas Force them to do that.

And I still think the rally was a good thing

[Guardienne]

And I still think the rally was a good thing

Of course the rally was a good thing. If nothing else it raises public awareness that these places exist, that most of the cute puppies in the pet shops are bred in puppy factories and that they shouldn't but from them.

[Are You Serious Jo]

I certainly don't support Baillieu's pledge. In fact I am very against his proposals. And I don't support making life difficult for ethical breeders.

I do have problems however with some people's arguments "why should I let someone into my home" and "who should have the right to tell me what I can and can't do with my dogs"......

If you are breeding and selling "anything" you should be transparent, open to scrutiny and open to inspection. No matter what your business. And as with anything else that is sold, you have to have regulation to protect the animals in your care and to protect the people purchasing from you.

Every one of us that sell things do so under legislation. Why are you so special?

Would you want the person doing the inspection to belong to an organisation that already thinks you are doing the wrong thing? If it was an independent government organisation doing the inspection it wouldn't be an issue, but the RSPCA have already made their views on breeders clear. The health department sends an inspector to check your bakery you have a way to appeal their decisions. The RSPCA decided you are doing the wrong thing they take your dogs, charge you an arm and a leg, if they get their way you have to pay their kennel fees upfront, and then they injure and kill your dogs and you have no recourse. Would you want that? Imagine someone who doesn't like you has unstoppable power over you, would you give them the ammo to use?

[shortstep]

I certainly don't support Baillieu's pledge. In fact I am very against his proposals. And I don't support making life difficult for ethical breeders.

I do have problems however with some people's arguments "why should I let someone into my home" and "who should have the right to tell me what I can and can't do with my dogs"......

If you are breeding and selling "anything" you should be transparent, open to scrutiny and open to inspection. No matter what your business. And as with anything else that is sold, you have to have regulation to protect the animals in your care and to protect the people purchasing from you.

Every one of us that sell things do so under legislation. Why are you so special?

Well it soon will not be a problem for you, the large scale breeding facilities will be inspected and any small breeders that are still around.

Now if you are buying a puppy from an inspected and approved large scale breeding facility, I am not sure if you as the buyer will be able to visit the mum and pups. Play with them, temperament test the litter and have weekly updates and discussions about the pups as they grow with their breeder like you might have done in the past with a home breeders. Which BTW would have given you ample time to scrutinize how the pups and dogs were managed in the breeders home. But I am sure the staff member on duty that day at the facility will be able to answer any questions you have. You will also know that the large scale breeding facility has passed inspection and is approved to breed and sell puppies. So it seems you will have ample opportunity to get a pup from an inspected source.

For the greater good.

Edited September 21, 2010 by shortstep

[Guardienne]

I certainly don't support Baillieu's pledge. In fact I am very against his proposals. And I don't support making life difficult for ethical breeders.

I do have problems however with some people's arguments "why should I let someone into my home" and "who should have the right to tell me what I can and can't do with my dogs"......

If you are breeding and selling "anything" you should be transparent, open to scrutiny and open to inspection. No matter what your business. And as with anything else that is sold, you have to have regulation to protect the animals in your care and to protect the people purchasing from you.

Every one of us that sell things do so under legislation. Why are you so special?

Well it soon will not be a problem for you, the large scale breeding facilities will be inspected and any small breeders that are still around.

Now if you are buying a puppy from an inspected and approved large scale breeding facility, I am not sure if you as the buyer will be able to visit the mum and pups. Play with them, temperament test the litter and have weekly updates and discussions about the pups as they grow with their breeder like you might have done in the past with a home breeders. Which BTW would have given you ample time to scrutinize how the pups and dogs were managed in the breeders home. But I am sure the staff member on duty that day at the facility will be able to answer any questions you have. You will also know that the large scale breeding facility has passed inspection and is approved to breed and sell puppies. So it seems you will have ample opportunity to get a pup from an inspected source.

For the greater good.

I'm not all that interested in made up hypotheticals......

I was hoping for an answer to the questions posed