Puppy Farm Awareness Rally

[oakway]

what makes me a puppy farmer?

i do not show.

it is even then the new unwritten law. you must show or you are a puppy farmer.

why worry about adding anything else it aint necessary surely thats enough?

phil burgess didnt show, she was a puppy farmer, yet decades later the very people who pillaried her were heard boasting they had found an elfreda to add to their kennel. odd it was a good dog when they owned it but not when its breeder did?

No Asal that's not quite right. :D

Why this is said is....because we have people getting Prefixes that really do not care about the quality dogs only the money they make from it.

Also they do not health test.

They also advertise as Registered Breeders. The average pet purchaser does not know the difference. It is the way at the moment, to distinguish some breeders from others.

Also if you are showing and consistently producing winning stock it goes a long way to prove that you are genuine about breeding dogs.

We breed to improve our stock and showing is the only way we can prove we are trying.

[toy dog]

what makes me a puppy farmer?

i do not show.

it is even then the new unwritten law. you must show or you are a puppy farmer.

why worry about adding anything else it aint necessary surely thats enough?

phil burgess didnt show, she was a puppy farmer, yet decades later the very people who pillaried her were heard boasting they had found an elfreda to add to their kennel. odd it was a good dog when they owned it but not when its breeder did?

Mot normal people don't care about shows

The only people who say "if you don't show you are a puppy farmer" are a small select group?

Some people breed cross breeds (I don't like that but they do), if they health test, keep their dogs in good conditions (both mentally and physically), give them regular, breed appropriate care, then they aren't puppy farmers.

i think really show people say all sorts of things at any one time, when you show or indeed being in the breed club or any club with a group of people you have to develop a thick skin. god knows when i published my articles for all to read in the club magazine about Patella Luxation the tongues were wagging but did i care, nope they can say what they like and they did some of it got back to me and i just laughed really.

they still gossip about certain people calling them puppy farmers in various breeds and i tend to not listen its all nasty talk and sometimes not true at all. tend to not listen to wagging tongues......plenty of them around.

but to deliberately call the RSPCA or the autorities onto another that is just plain nasty.

what would be the reason to breed a cross? not to better any bloodlines, any breed, there's only one thing that attracts them and that is $ so to breed for $ is a puppy farmer. or a smaller scale version which is a backyarder.

ETA: banksia claim they are an upmarket puppy farm, care is given to their dogs they preach it to whoever they can. but they are still a farmer however they paint the pretty picture.

Edited September 21, 2010 by toy dog

[megan_]

I'm not saying cross breeding is good. It was one example to prove that puppy farmers are a specific group of breeders - not everyone who breeds a cross breed is a puppy farmer, not everyone who doesn't show is a puppy farmer.

Puppy farmers mass produce dogs in sub-standard conditions. It has nothing to do with showing.

[toy dog]

I'm not saying cross breeding is good. It was one example to prove that puppy farmers are a specific group of breeders - not everyone who breeds a cross breed is a puppy farmer, not everyone who doesn't show is a puppy farmer.

Puppy farmers mass produce dogs in sub-standard conditions. It has nothing to do with showing.

yes but ppl who breed crosses are backyarders who are a smaller version of a farmer! yes that is true not all that don't show dogs are farmers i've seen good examples of dogs from breeders not into showing and their stock have been shown (by others) to go on to win hands down some have chosen to not show but then all of a sudden turn up in the showring with a beautiful dog, but i think the example that you are using there is like comparing oranges to apples.

Edited September 21, 2010 by toy dog

[Jed]

Kate wasn't from Freedom. Freedom was owned by a family, and the head honcho was a man by the name of Peter... (and I can't recall his surname).

Kate was the daughter of the Freedom family. Peter was the father. He was killed in an accident a few years ago. 2? 3?

Her DOL name was Kate - something or other. It may have been before your time (although I woudn't have thought so) but she was a member here for some time

Ask an older member, or ask Troy.

I couldn't be bothered posting lies. The point was that although Kate was on this forum, and posted, I know little about Freedom - but I know quite a lot about some other puppy farms, and they are what I based my comments on.

Edit Just remembered her DOL name - Staceycate I think. Probably been banned as every time she posted she got abused!

Edited September 21, 2010 by Jed

[Steve]

Kate wasn't from Freedom. Freedom was owned by a family, and the head honcho was a man by the name of Peter... (and I can't recall his surname).

Kate was Peter's daughter - not Kate Scoffeld who is the leader of the AAPDB but another Kate.

[Dame Aussie]

I know that breeders feel strongly about their rights, but this isn't about the breeders rights, it's about the dogs rights.

While ever people like yourself have this attitude the great divide between animal activists and good dog breeders will continue to widen.

The dogs rights are paramount in the minds of good breeders.

And good breeders also have rights and these rights need to be respected otherwise you will find yourself living in a world of crook breeders and the dogs will be worse off.

The good breeders will be gone - in part because their rights were trashed by over enthusiastic people who have not looked at the bigger picture.

A bit of balance and respect please.

Souff

so aussie3

where was stringy's rights??????

dissappeared a happy healthy little dog. reclaimed 13 days later stuck full of holes and two punched out n stitched back up?, torn trachea n pnemonia?????

welllllll

where were his rights?

his vet said he was nothing wrong with him, return him......... why was a fully qualified vet ignored....why was him writing down his opinion before the dog was seized more important than his opinion the day he rang them?

even more chilling, the vet was head of vic rscpa before hughly worthlesss.....so if he cant get a dog out of an rspca jail..... who can?

I didn't say I agreed with the RSPCA and their view on debarking....show me where I said that?

I have nothing against breeders but I don't think it's fair for them to abuse and vilify people who went to this protest with all the right intentions.

You can go off at me all you like but telling people they have ruined it for all breeders is just ridiculous and unfair.

That's me done.

[Souff]

Some people breed cross breeds (I don't like that but they do), if they health test, keep their dogs in good conditions (both mentally and physically), give them regular, breed appropriate care, then they aren't puppy farmers.

Are you sure?

They are breeding cross bred dogs (read mutts) and have no code of ethics to answer to.

They have nobody keeping an eye on how many litters they are breeding because there is nobody registering the pedigrees, because they are not paying any registration fees to any registry.

They could be breeding every season and nobody knows nor cares.

They are just the type of breeder that puppy buyers should be warned to stay away from .... they are answerable to nobody.

Big statement to say that such a breeder is not a puppy farmer!

Souff

[Gayle.]

Me done too. There are some really good, balanced posts, some really one sided views, some very valuable input and some opinions I'm interested in but hadn't considered, all interspersed with the ravings of a lunatic. Getting too hard to sort the sense from the nonsense.

[Souff]

I have nothing against breeders but I don't think it's fair for them to abuse and vilify people who went to this protest with all the right intentions.

You can go off at me all you like but telling people they have ruined it for all breeders is just ridiculous and unfair.

That's me done.

It might be you done, but just remember that the good breeders hold the dogs welfare as their highest priority.

Good dogs need good breeders, and good dogs need a future that can only be provided by breeders.

A rally in the city is all fine for PR for the animal activists, but is not fine to come on here and suggest that it is all about the dogs rights and not about breeders rights.

Good breeders have rights too and I hope they flex their muscle to the Victorian Government, and soon.

Souff

[Souff]

Me done too. There are some really good, balanced posts, some really one sided views, some very valuable input and some opinions I'm interested in but hadn't considered, all interspersed with the ravings of a lunatic. Getting too hard to sort the sense from the nonsense.

In what you call "ravings" there was mention that no right of appeal has been put forward with Oscar's law..

A basic in any democratic set of rules.

Sounds sane enough to me.

Souff

[Steve]

Some people breed cross breeds (I don't like that but they do), if they health test, keep their dogs in good conditions (both mentally and physically), give them regular, breed appropriate care, then they aren't puppy farmers.

Are you sure?

They are breeding cross bred dogs (read mutts) and have no code of ethics to answer to.

They have nobody keeping an eye on how many litters they are breeding because there is nobody registering the pedigrees, because they are not paying any registration fees to any registry.

They could be breeding every season and nobody knows nor cares.

They are just the type of breeder that puppy buyers should be warned to stay away from .... they are answerable to nobody.

Big statement to say that such a breeder is not a puppy farmer!

Souff

Around and around the merry go round. Way back when I first came in here I asked - what is a puppy farmer and told everyone the definition according to the people who are pushing most for new laws but still its obvious there are a hundred or so definitions of what a puppy farmer is.

[Are You Serious Jo]

Me done too. There are some really good, balanced posts, some really one sided views, some very valuable input and some opinions I'm interested in but hadn't considered, all interspersed with the ravings of a lunatic. Getting too hard to sort the sense from the nonsense.

That isn't fair, asal had a pretty traumatic experience when targeted and is having a hard time dealing with it. Are you a breeder, are you comfortable with snap inspections by a group who answers to no one and has an axe to grind?

[Natsu chan]

What Asal is saying is that the RSPCA have the power to seize animals already baised on the views of the inspector that a dog is in need of immediate veterinary care. They have had these powers for I believe 20 odd years. They only use them when it is financially conducive for them to do so. This is something the general public is not aware of. They do not have to charge you for anything to do this either and even if you are innocent they are still entitled to give you the bill for all kennelling and vet costs.

Part of the law being proposed gives the RSPCA the right to seize animals and demand payment for kennelling etc up front, if the owner can not they must sign the dogs over. This is before any charges are laid. Given that there is no court of appeal why are we pushing to allow this too when clearly there are issues with the RSPCA abusing their power already? That is I believe what Asal is trying to say.

To be honest I agree. I think that part of the bill is a minefield for everyone and a bonanza for the RSPCA.

[Jed]

Oakway

Also if you are showing and consistently producing winning stock it goes a long way to prove that you are genuine about breeding dogs.

Hmm, not always, as you know.

And I am NOT having a go at you. I would never do that. Never

None of these moves to licence/inspect/regulate/harrass/torment and annoy breeders will improve the lives of registered purebred dogs one iota.

Steve (another thread)

Before they can stop pets being sold in pet shops they have to change federal law .

They have to have real stats and figures and not quote numbers which are so easily refuted.

While ever any push to stop pets being sold in pet shops is based on opinion and assumption those pushing it will be seen as rednecks.

There are no hard stats.

Why does federal law need to be changed to outlaw pets from pet shops?

the opinion I got didn't think so.

I don't give a rats what people breed, as long as the pups are as healthy as they can be, and the parents are kept as they should be kept. Which is NOT in those abortions called puppy farms. OodlieDoodlies which I think are a bit of a joke, and cross breds are all good with me. Not purebreds, but not their fault, and purebreds are not always what people want.

50 years in the future, if there are any dogs remaining - the citizens of the time will be appalled that the primitive people of the 20th and 21st century were so very backward that they thought it was satisfactory to keep such a social intelligent being as a dog, which had proved time and again, his worth to man, in squalid, disgusting conditions, where he suffered terribly and didn't develop his full potential.

And that governments failed to take the necessary steps to free him from this cruelty.

Unfortunately there are always too many people with different agendas involved in things of this type, and the altruistic ones who want only freedom and happiness for the dogs, are bulldozed, and the dogs continue to suffer.

Why do I bother?

[Are You Serious Jo]

Don't forget that the kenneling fees that you must pay up front are equal to what the best pet resort you could find would charge, so there is financial incentive to seize animals. Hugh said it didn't he, they are trying to run a multi-million dollar business, his words. If you don't have a large sum of money available you have to surrender your pets, too bad if you are found innocent, and by that time the evidence has already been taken care of by the RSPCA. History doesn't seem to be an effective teacher for some I guess.

[Steve]

Oakway

Also if you are showing and consistently producing winning stock it goes a long way to prove that you are genuine about breeding dogs.

Hmm, not always, as you know.

And I am NOT having a go at you. I would never do that. Never

None of these moves to licence/inspect/regulate/harrass/torment and annoy breeders will improve the lives of registered purebred dogs one iota.

Steve (another thread)

Before they can stop pets being sold in pet shops they have to change federal law .

They have to have real stats and figures and not quote numbers which are so easily refuted.

While ever any push to stop pets being sold in pet shops is based on opinion and assumption those pushing it will be seen as rednecks.

There are no hard stats.

Why does federal law need to be changed to outlaw pets from pet shops?

the opinion I got didn't think so.

I don't give a rats what people breed, as long as the pups are as healthy as they can be, and the parents are kept as they should be kept. Which is NOT in those abortions called puppy farms. OodlieDoodlies which I think are a bit of a joke, and cross breds are all good with me. Not purebreds, but not their fault, and purebreds are not always what people want.

50 years in the future, if there are any dogs remaining - the citizens of the time will be appalled that the primitive people of the 20th and 21st century were so very backward that they thought it was satisfactory to keep such a social intelligent being as a dog, which had proved time and again, his worth to man, in squalid, disgusting conditions, where he suffered terribly and didn't develop his full potential.

And that governments failed to take the necessary steps to free him from this cruelty.

Unfortunately there are always too many people with different agendas involved in things of this type, and the altruistic ones who want only freedom and happiness for the dogs, are bulldozed, and the dogs continue to suffer.

Why do I bother?

Thats right there are no stats so when one side says most puppies bred in puppy farms - remember their definition of a puppy farm is not a commercial breeding establishment - and the pet shop industry says thats not true - we dont source our puppies from puppy farmers - which one is telling the truth? You have the ANKC

and the AVA backing PIAA and no one is going to sign off on any laws which are going to restrict trade without a whole lot more going down than what is in the mix now.

In Australia we have different laws to UK and USA called Fair trading laws and they are federal. That means in this country the ACCC will override any laws which are more prohibitive trading laws in any state.

Why on earth would pet shops buy puppies which come from people who are puppy farmers - according to the definition the RSPCA round table came up with - they dont need to and if they did they would have more dropping dead and more complaints than they could deal with.

A puppy farmer is someone who breeds dogs in substandard conditions - no one can prove that they are sold to pet shops and pet shops say they are not. If in fact they are before anything is ever going to go anywhere someone had better show the figures to prove it because if we dont all thats going to happen is breeders are going to get more and more and more crap on them in case they too are puppy farmers.

[oakway]

Oakway

Also if you are showing and consistently producing winning stock it goes a long way to prove that you are genuine about breeding dogs.

Hmm, not always, as you know.

And I am NOT having a go at you. I would never do that. Never

None of these moves to licence/inspect/regulate/harrass/torment and annoy breeders will improve the lives of registered purebred dogs one iota.

Steve (another thread)

Before they can stop pets being sold in pet shops they have to change federal law .

They have to have real stats and figures and not quote numbers which are so easily refuted.

While ever any push to stop pets being sold in pet shops is based on opinion and assumption those pushing it will be seen as rednecks.

There are no hard stats.

Why does federal law need to be changed to outlaw pets from pet shops?

the opinion I got didn't think so.

I don't give a rats what people breed, as long as the pups are as healthy as they can be, and the parents are kept as they should be kept. Which is NOT in those abortions called puppy farms. OodlieDoodlies which I think are a bit of a joke, and cross breds are all good with me. Not purebreds, but not their fault, and purebreds are not always what people want.

50 years in the future, if there are any dogs remaining - the citizens of the time will be appalled that the primitive people of the 20th and 21st century were so very backward that they thought it was satisfactory to keep such a social intelligent being as a dog, which had proved time and again, his worth to man, in squalid, disgusting conditions, where he suffered terribly and didn't develop his full potential.

And that governments failed to take the necessary steps to free him from this cruelty.

Unfortunately there are always too many people with different agendas involved in things of this type, and the altruistic ones who want only freedom and happiness for the dogs, are bulldozed, and the dogs continue to suffer.

Why do I bother?

Jed your right, but as you know we will always get a rogue amongst us, but with lists like this and the good people out there we soon sort the wheat from the chaff.

I also wonder why I bother to.

[Souff]

Around and around the merry go round. Way back when I first came in here I asked - what is a puppy farmer and told everyone the definition according to the people who are pushing most for new laws but still its obvious there are a hundred or so definitions of what a puppy farmer is.

Yeah ..... (big sigh). The definition of a puppy farmer is about as clear as the definition of a BUNYIP.

So now we are being told that the breeders of crossbred dogs couldn't be puppy farmers ..... "if they health test, keep their dogs in good conditions (both mentally and physically), give them regular, breed appropriate care,"

No mention of how many puppies are being churned out! No checks, nothing to answer for, nobody to answer to! ;):

And these people seriously want us to believe that they are here to HELP the dogs?

They surely must be joking.

Souff

[Steve]

Oakway

Also if you are showing and consistently producing winning stock it goes a long way to prove that you are genuine about breeding dogs.

Hmm, not always, as you know.

And I am NOT having a go at you. I would never do that. Never

None of these moves to licence/inspect/regulate/harrass/torment and annoy breeders will improve the lives of registered purebred dogs one iota.

Steve (another thread)

Before they can stop pets being sold in pet shops they have to change federal law .

They have to have real stats and figures and not quote numbers which are so easily refuted.

While ever any push to stop pets being sold in pet shops is based on opinion and assumption those pushing it will be seen as rednecks.

There are no hard stats.

Why does federal law need to be changed to outlaw pets from pet shops?

the opinion I got didn't think so.

I don't give a rats what people breed, as long as the pups are as healthy as they can be, and the parents are kept as they should be kept. Which is NOT in those abortions called puppy farms. OodlieDoodlies which I think are a bit of a joke, and cross breds are all good with me. Not purebreds, but not their fault, and purebreds are not always what people want.

50 years in the future, if there are any dogs remaining - the citizens of the time will be appalled that the primitive people of the 20th and 21st century were so very backward that they thought it was satisfactory to keep such a social intelligent being as a dog, which had proved time and again, his worth to man, in squalid, disgusting conditions, where he suffered terribly and didn't develop his full potential.

And that governments failed to take the necessary steps to free him from this cruelty.

Unfortunately there are always too many people with different agendas involved in things of this type, and the altruistic ones who want only freedom and happiness for the dogs, are bulldozed, and the dogs continue to suffer.

Why do I bother?

The parents are kept as they should be kept? Who decides what is the way the parents should be kept? Many people who keep their dogs in kennels on concrete floors do so because they have no choice because that is what their council says they have to do to own them. In fact most people who keep their breeding dogs in numbers of more than say 3 or 4 which sleep in the house and live the way I think they should live are doing so illegally. They are the rougue breeders and they are the ones who will be pinged with any new laws - not the ones who have complied with council planning laws and have lots of pens with concrete floors. The dogs are removed from their loungerooms though many would prefer they could keep their dozen or so small breed dogs inside the house with them. Most of us are breaching council by laws and most of us do everything we can to avoid council or RSPCA visits because we know they will make us keep our dogs differently if they allow us to keep them at all.

I spoke with a registered breeder today from Queensland She owns 160 acres and owns 6 dogs and has been living where she does for over 10 years in a rural zone. She now has to pay $1500 permit fee to be able to breed dogs on her property as well as yearly rego fees and council engineers are now assessing what she will need to do to be able to get this permit as far as housing for her dogs are concerned. Her breed doesnt cope well with being separated from each other and they have lived in the house all their lives. She is going to desex her dogs and never breed again if they make her house them in kennels to be able to breed them. I dont blame her. She is a rougue breeder.