Puppy Farm Awareness Rally

[lappiemum]

So then Steve what you're really saying is that it is virtually impossible for average Joe to work out whether a breeder is ethical or not.

Personally this is precisely why i think raising awareness is so very important- if you don't raise awareness people won't ask any questions. Raise awareness, and at least people will start to think about what they need from a breeder.

Yes, its very difficult if the average Joe hasn't spent some time researching not only the breed but the breeders. We all know of registered breeders who breed as often as they can, with the focus on production and $ not on betterment of the breed. Then there are unregistered breeders, who have flashy websites and promote themselves on the internet as having a variety of lovely puppies on demand, all healthy and happy (and "you don't need papers for a pet" bylines). There are other categories, but your 'averag Joe' is likely to think these type of breeders in particular are reputable, esp with the spin and smokescreens that they put out. And next thing you know, they have paid and lot of cash and bought a puppy which may have significant health problems, behavioural problems and development issues, but once the deal is done and the goods handed over, the 'breeder' doesn't want to know about it anymore. Seriously, how many times have we seen that played out here on DOL with a newbie posting "I have a problem"....?

[mita]

BTW the reason people in Europe have dogs spread all over town is they have so many strict laws about keeing dogs and being licensed to breed (pretty much like you are trying to pull off down here). So to have any chance to breed good dogs and have a selection of dogs to raise up, evaluate and consider for breeding you have to get very creative in your method of having dogs but not havbing them around your home. Translation, pawn your dogs off all over town so it looks like you do not own them.

But it is a great idea that bring up and I am sure people will be pushed to the point of doing this in Australia very soon.

I get what you're saying. But from what I've picked up from the European breeders, they believe such a system, where other people might have their show dogs as pets, is actually good for the dogs. They get the best of both worlds. My own dog from Europe came from that system, when young, & she was beautifully socialised as both a pet and as a showdog.

And I notice what a good life, the greyhound girl next door has. She, too, has a great pet life, but still contributes to the stock of a champion sprinter bloodline via specialist care on a property when litter is planned.

It seems ONE humane & progressive way for purebred dogs to live and contribute, too. Fits in with present laws & is not best conceptualised as a way to avoid laws. It has good goals in its own right.

Edited September 20, 2010 by mita

[pip1981]

It was your question to Oakway about large numbers of dogs that worries me. A ratio of dogs to carer is probably a better way to go. I saw a council giving approval to a kennel for (I think) 10 dogs. They did not factor in puppies. They did not factor in any dogs that were there during the day for training, but home at night. No variables!

Just hard and fast FIXED NUMBERS! Wrong on so many counts!

I can take you to a state-of-the-art kennel that can easily accommodate 40 dogs. They rarely have that many. There are separate puppy areas, a kitchen for the dogs, a clinic area, and shower/toilets area for the staff. They have staff and family members who take many of the dogs on runs to the dam, out for drives in the car, and all of the dogs are socialised. They have exercise areas that would be the envy of some sporting facilities.

Some of the dogs alternate their time in the kennels and down at the main house, or go home with staff. Puppies of various ages are run on, for various reasons, and are well socialised from an early age.

Some of the dogs go overseas and live with different people on a lease basis, and then return! How many dogs can you do that with? Only those that are loved and confident and well cared for. You can see these dogs at shows as confident, well adjusted and loving animals.

This is not a puppy farm. It is a specialist animal establishment and a very valuable one at that. Yet on paper you would view it as a puppy farm.

The laws that Victorian politicians could bring in as a result of the emotive rally in Melbourne at the weekend put all this at risk.

There would be no benefit for dogs with the loss of an establishment such as this one. No benefit at all. Just a huge loss for this breed of dog and for Australia generally.

Souff

A ratio system sounds reasonable to me as well, and in the example you provided, it clearly works. Not that I think that scenario would be common. However, I believe if it is as you say, they would easily pass any inspection.

I should add, I'm very new to all of this, having only brought home my first dog (of my own) 3 years ago, and having gained most of my knowledge via Samoyed breeders, DOL and other online sources, so I don't presume to know much at all about breeding, hence all the questions (which are genuine I might add).

What I do know, about MY breed of choice, is that anything you read about them as pets (or what breeders tell puppy buyers) says they do BEST with their family, in their home. Therefore, I wouldn't source 'Samoyed' pups from an establishment such as the one you described, because I would prefer to encourage those who treat their dogs as they wish their puppies to be treated in their new homes. Like, I said, I'm limited to one breed, but should we have different rules for different breeds? I really don't know.

I think I've learned that my knowledge is too limited to further discuss this, I think I'll just watch and learn.

I will, however, continue to fight 'puppy farmers' as I view them, and support 'ethical' registered breeders, as I view them.

[mita]

It is a huge mistake to compare Australia with Europe.

The shortage of available land and the climate in northern Europe is extremely restrictive for many things.

Souff

With respect, I disagree. Situations in Europe can throw up ONE way in which a breeder's purebred dogs can be kept. No one is suggesting, it should be the only way.

The champion-stock greyhound girl next door (in Australia) is kept according to that system. Results are...happy dog, happy pet owner, happy syndicate & splendid contributions to the bloodline.

Edited September 20, 2010 by mita

[Crisovar]

It was your question to Oakway about large numbers of dogs that worries me. A ratio of dogs to carer is probably a better way to go. I saw a council giving approval to a kennel for (I think) 10 dogs. They did not factor in puppies. They did not factor in any dogs that were there during the day for training, but home at night. No variables!

Just hard and fast FIXED NUMBERS! Wrong on so many counts!

I can take you to a state-of-the-art kennel that can easily accommodate 40 dogs. They rarely have that many. There are separate puppy areas, a kitchen for the dogs, a clinic area, and shower/toilets area for the staff. They have staff and family members who take many of the dogs on runs to the dam, out for drives in the car, and all of the dogs are socialised. They have exercise areas that would be the envy of some sporting facilities.

Some of the dogs alternate their time in the kennels and down at the main house, or go home with staff. Puppies of various ages are run on, for various reasons, and are well socialised from an early age.

Some of the dogs go overseas and live with different people on a lease basis, and then return! How many dogs can you do that with? Only those that are loved and confident and well cared for. You can see these dogs at shows as confident, well adjusted and loving animals.

This is not a puppy farm. It is a specialist animal establishment and a very valuable one at that. Yet on paper you would view it as a puppy farm.

The laws that Victorian politicians could bring in as a result of the emotive rally in Melbourne at the weekend put all this at risk.

There would be no benefit for dogs with the loss of an establishment such as this one. No benefit at all. Just a huge loss for this breed of dog and for Australia generally.

Souff

A ratio system sounds reasonable to me as well, and in the example you provided, it clearly works. Not that I think that scenario would be common. However, I believe if it is as you say, they would easily pass any inspection.

I should add, I'm very new to all of this, having only brought home my first dog (of my own) 3 years ago, and having gained most of my knowledge via Samoyed breeders, DOL and other online sources, so I don't presume to know much at all about breeding, hence all the questions (which are genuine I might add).

What I do know, about MY breed of choice, is that anything you read about them as pets (or what breeders tell puppy buyers) says they do BEST with their family, in their home. Therefore, I wouldn't source 'Samoyed' pups from an establishment such as the one you described, because I would prefer to encourage those who treat their dogs as they wish their puppies to be treated in their new homes. Like, I said, I'm limited to one breed, but should we have different rules for different breeds? I really don't know.

I think I've learned that my knowledge is too limited to further discuss this, I think I'll just watch and learn.

I will, however, continue to fight 'puppy farmers' as I view them, and support 'ethical' registered breeders, as I view them.

Serious question, what do you think that the pups raised in the establishment described by Souff miss out on?

[Steve]

Look I'm sorry but I honestly think that even though there are good intentions all round that its too bad before anyone stated banging a drum and having any expectation that what they were asking was even a possibility there should have been a hell of a lot more research.

The majority think that the outcome of all of this is going to be close down mass production of puppies and stop the sales of pets in pet shops. Neither of those things are going to happen.

Around about now you can decide that you are right and therefore everyone should have been there with you - that those who weren't wine and moan but do nothing or you can stop beating down anyone trying to explain and understand why they didn't support you. IF your beliefs and knowledge only come from those who have never bred a dog it seems to me to be a limited learning plain.

Good intentions don't cut it if you don't also open yourselves up to the potential unintended consequences and mis information which has taken on a cult like unthinking zombie like belief system.

[shortstep]

Souff, that is why I mentioned in another post, that any definition of puppy farm would be difficult to create due to differing individual circumstances. I totally agree that 'quantity' cannot be the ONLY factor considered, but realistically there has to be an 'upper' limit doesn't there?? Even the most experienced breeder with unlimited funds, unlimited time and good management skills couldn't possibly provide 50 dogs on their own property with the required exercise, mental stimulation and affection they need on top of basic environmental needs. But, then I guess it comes down to what people believe a dog needs, I personally believe they all deserve to feel belonging and certainty.

And, I still want to know what 'larger numbers of dogs' are...whether or not it is the 'focus', I think it is an important factor.

Also, I too, like the idea of a 'fair go', but all too often this is taken advantage of. I'd rather focus on giving the dogs a fair go at a better life.

Well really what needs to happen is all ANKC breeders turn in their prefixes and stop breeding until then can be sorted though.

A committee of concerned people, someone like you a pet owner, someone like Mita as the ANKC rep for ethical breeders, the RSPCA, the Animal liberation, a PETA activist, get a couple of Uni intellectuals on ethics and animal welfare and a vet.

Then they can all go over to the hopeful breeders home. Look at their dogs, their health testing, there breeding history, inspect the grounds facilities and protocols, read over the breeders policy and procedure manual. Interview other family members, meet with their vet, speak to the neighbors and 6 random owners of their past puppies.

The breeder should also take an ethics test and an genetics test. They would need to be a member of a breed club and take 12 hours of continuing education each year. Produce full liability and genetic health insurance on every puppy they breed.

Then the committee can meet and discuss this breeder and see what they think, make those difficult decision as to who can breed and who can not. How many dogs are too many dogs, tailoring each decision to each person, with no set of standards that all have to meet. The decsions would be something like, yes they can breed as long as they change nothing in the current status. Or no they can not breed and then intervention if needed, such as they need to rid of 3 of their dogs as they do not have enough time for them and they need to desex the remaining one dog (their choice which dog they can keep).

For those that are approved to breed, they will be inspected randomly at least but no less than once a year by the RSPCA for any violations. They will have to report any litter they breed with in 2 days of their birth to the shire and the RSPCA, so that the litter rearing inspections can commence (2-4 times during each litter, with a final sign off inspection at 8 weeks just prior to the pup leaving). That should just about put everyone at ease that ANKC breeders are in fact doing a good job and if not they will be caught out and dealt with.

Edited to add, the breeders really are going to have to pay a fee for all these inspection, the RSPCA can set this charge and collect at the time of inspection.

Then all the BYB (that no one knows how to locate) will just go on doing what they always do, breeding dogs to make a few $.

The puppy mills, will the lawyered up ready to fight and win any action towards them or any threat to close them down. The committees will be warned to walk gently with the mills as law suits will result if they are not very careful.

The mills will now be able to say that they pass RSPCA and government inspections as an ethical breeding establishment and can hang their approved certificate proudly on their office wall.

Edited September 20, 2010 by shortstep

[Steve]

It is a huge mistake to compare Australia with Europe.

The shortage of available land and the climate in northern Europe is extremely restrictive for many things.

Souff

With respect, I disagree. Situations in Europe can throw up ONE way in which a breeder's purebred dogs can be kept. No one is suggesting, it should be the only way.

The champion-stock greyhound girl next door (in Australia) is kept according to that system. Results are...happy dog, happy pet owner, happy syndicate & splendid contributions to the bloodline.

MY purebred dogs will never be kept at anyone else's property - never.

[pip1981]

Serious question, what do you think that the pups raised in the establishment described by Souff miss out on?

I'm trying to keep away from this discussion, I really don't think I'm qualified to answer, and I don't know if the breed or breeds in question have special requirements either, but I'll try and answer your question because I think it's rude not to.

I wasn't only referring to the pups, I'm sure in that particular establishment, with a whole family and staff involved, the cute little puppies get all the attention they need. What I was trying to say, in relation to MY chosen breed, is that I would want to see the adults on the premises living as the breeder intended me to house the pup when I took it home. Otherwise it would be a little contradictory, eg. Breeder says "Sammies really do much better when living as part of the family, and allowed inside or where the family spends the most time, but my adults live in pens and only take turns being part of the family". However, as I said I'm talking about MY chosen breed, because I feel it is all I am possibly qualified to do. In addition, I'm not picking on this establishment, how could I really form an opinion on it, without spending some time there myself, which is what I think authorities should be allowed to do. And, they would probably find all was well.

On a lighter note, if you think I'm wrong, you could just picture me falling down the stairs, like a slinky

[mita]

It is a huge mistake to compare Australia with Europe.

The shortage of available land and the climate in northern Europe is extremely restrictive for many things.

Souff

With respect, I disagree. Situations in Europe can throw up ONE way in which a breeder's purebred dogs can be kept. No one is suggesting, it should be the only way.

The champion-stock greyhound girl next door (in Australia) is kept according to that system. Results are...happy dog, happy pet owner, happy syndicate & splendid contributions to the bloodline.

MY purebred dogs will never be kept at anyone else's property - never.

Well, each to their own.

As someone who owns a companion house-dog breed, I prefer a system where the dog I get has been raised as close as possible to everyday pet circumstances. I note, with approval, how so many registered breeders of my breed, state on their Dogzonline Profiles that they raise their dogs in pet circumstances as part of the family life. So, I'd also approve, if and when breeders (of my breed) elect to have one of the dogs 'owned' as a pet by a suitable person who gives them a similar life... but available for showing & maybe a planned litter. Most seem to retire their dogs from showing around 4,5,6 years, when they get desexed, anyway (some, earlier). So the dogs would have continuity in their lives. 1 to 2 litters seem to be the norm.

It gave my tibbie girl a good life in Sweden & it gives the greyhound next door the same, when otherwise she'd be confined completely to a greyhound breeding property.

[perfect partners]

I had a teary after the song with the guitar

Hi bertandsally. I think I spoke to you - I had the Newfie.

hi perfect partner was good to meet you.

i think my OH wants to steal your dog :D

Good to meet you too. I'll keep a close eye on her! I could easily have taken your two home - two breeds I really like.

[shortstep]

At any rate, I remain optimistic. I am envisioning a future about 20 years from now. A secret underground network of (old fashion) dog breeders. They never sell their dogs. They breed very rarely, keeping the pup they want and place the others with trusted friends and other breed fanciers. Keeping a small gene pool going of selected lines of their breed going forward. When this happens, will you few remaining purebred dog owners let me know, I want in! LOL

Interesting you should post this, because I've noticed something that may be a bit of a pattern in some European countries. My particular breed has connections with especially northern Europe (one of my dogs was born there) So there's a bit of chat exchanged.

I've noticed that it's not uncommon, in northern Europe, for a breeder to have dogs that essentially live like pets with other people. But are still shown and may also have planned (of course!) litters...with the breeder. I can't quote numbers on how widespread it is. But I've noticed it, in passing. Seems to come from fact that population is more dense in those European areas & that can work against keeping numbers of dogs on the one location. Also seems to relate to preference for dogs to get more individual attention in a pet-like life.

So, why wait for the future? Would a variation of doing this, work here? No need for secret underground system needed.

In fact, the man next door keeps a lovely greyhound girl as his favourite pet (she's a sister to a champion runner). But when she was ready to have a litter, she went to a property set up for that and owned by the syndicate that owns her.

Thougth I repsonded to this but now can't find it.

No Mita.

First off I would never pawn off dogs all over town to breed with. I will just stop breeding if it came to something like that.

Second, the reason the folks in Europe are pawning their dogs off all over town is becasue they have too many resrtictive laws that inhibt the breeders ability to breed good dogs, so as a last resort they try to hind their dogs so they still can make choices. But yes I can see this happening here in the not to distant future, and that is a very sorry thing.

I know you are trying very hard to see the world with rose coloured glasses, but as my mother said to me, 'Take em off and get a clue'.

Edited September 20, 2010 by shortstep

[Steve]

I guess it all depends on why you breed dogs and what you expect to get out of it yourself. When I whelp a litter I share the experience with my bitches. Bitches I know and love as I do my family. For me just bringing the bitch back when she is to have puppies would be like being a nurse or midwife to humans.No emotional attachment - just a job. Thats not what I get out of breeding dogs. My bitches are my mates and I care about them more than I can put into words - if they lived with someone else I wouldn't know them as well and they wouldn't know me either. No bonding not for me.

[mita]

I know you are trying very hard to see the world with rose coloured glasses, but as my mother said to me, 'Take em off and get a clue'.

What rose-coloured glasses? I've cited actual examples with actual outcomes. Also known as rational thinking.

I believe that being proactive leads to progress.

[Crisovar]

Serious question, what do you think that the pups raised in the establishment described by Souff miss out on?

I'm trying to keep away from this discussion, I really don't think I'm qualified to answer, and I don't know if the breed or breeds in question have special requirements either, but I'll try and answer your question because I think it's rude not to.

I wasn't only referring to the pups, I'm sure in that particular establishment, with a whole family and staff involved, the cute little puppies get all the attention they need. What I was trying to say, in relation to MY chosen breed, is that I would want to see the adults on the premises living as the breeder intended me to house the pup when I took it home. Otherwise it would be a little contradictory, eg. Breeder says "Sammies really do much better when living as part of the family, and allowed inside or where the family spends the most time, but my adults live in pens and only take turns being part of the family". However, as I said I'm talking about MY chosen breed, because I feel it is all I am possibly qualified to do. In addition, I'm not picking on this establishment, how could I really form an opinion on it, without spending some time there myself, which is what I think authorities should be allowed to do. And, they would probably find all was well.

On a lighter note, if you think I'm wrong, you could just picture me falling down the stairs, like a slinky

I look at the Breeders statement

Sammies really do much better when living as part of the family, and allowed inside or where the family spends the most time

being spot on for a family or individual buying one pup/dog as a pet. Of course the animal is not going to do well on it's own isolated. A dog alone on its own away from other dogs and humans is not what we want.

Dogs living in a breeders or exhibitors establishment where the number of dogs and or sexes means that for some of the time at least they need to be kennelled etc are not alone, they have the rest of the dog pack to interact with. I don't see this as unacceptable and that the dogs are missing out on anything, they have their dog family around as well as the times they spend with their humans. So I don't see this as contradictory.

Does this change anything for you?

[mita]

I guess it all depends on why you breed dogs and what you expect to get out of it yourself. When I whelp a litter I share the experience with my bitches. Bitches I know and love as I do my family. For me just bringing the bitch back when she is to have puppies would be like being a nurse or midwife to humans.No emotional attachment - just a job. Thats not what I get out of breeding dogs. My bitches are my mates and I care about them more than I can put into words - if they lived with someone else I wouldn't know them as well and they wouldn't know me either. No bonding not for me.

Steve, I know what you're saying. The registered breeders that I've adopted my adult tibbies from stay in touch & always ask 'How is my girl going?'

And I love them for it. Just shows with how much love, care & personal attention those dogs were raised.

OK, they're my dogs now, paid for (with money the breeders didn't care much about), microchipped and registered in my name. But there's a lovely bond that will always exist between their breeder & them. So, of course, they still say, 'My dog'. That's the precious, secret ingredient in the best produced purebred dogs. Pet-owners should know that's what to look for! It's the key thing that puppy-farming (whoever does it) does not do...& hasn't a clue even exists.

Edited September 20, 2010 by mita

[BJean]

I don't see what is so bad about anything you have mentioned. If I were a breeder I would be happy to let my premises be inspected as I would have nothing to hide.

What's so bad about having to show health records to prove the dogs are well looked after??

Yeah, sure, some of their requirements seem silly but isn't that the case with all laws/councils? We just have to deal with it.

Define 'premises inspection'.

what do they look at? where do they go?

inside the house or just outside?

I'm curious about inspections because I wonder how they would work at my place, or any other breeder who has working/guard dogs.

So I have some inspector stand in the driveway and I say okay in that paddock is dog A, B & C; in that paddock dog D & E;

and in that pen dog F, and in that pen dog G.

no you cant go any further or the dog(s) will kill you.

sounds great! : D

Define health records.

yearly vaccs, never vaccinated since a puppy?

worming?

what will health records show?

each dog to be inspected?

Edited September 20, 2010 by lilli

[shortstep]

BTW the reason people in Europe have dogs spread all over town is they have so many strict laws about keeing dogs and being licensed to breed (pretty much like you are trying to pull off down here). So to have any chance to breed good dogs and have a selection of dogs to raise up, evaluate and consider for breeding you have to get very creative in your method of having dogs but not havbing them around your home. Translation, pawn your dogs off all over town so it looks like you do not own them.

But it is a great idea that bring up and I am sure people will be pushed to the point of doing this in Australia very soon.

I get what you're saying. But from what I've picked up from the European breeders, they believe such a system, where other people might have their show dogs as pets, is actually good for the dogs. They get the best of both worlds. My own dog from Europe came from that system, when young, & she was beautifully socialised as both a pet and as a showdog.

And I notice what a good life, the greyhound girl next door has. She, too, has a great pet life, but still contributes to the stock of a champion sprinter bloodline via specialist care on a property when litter is planned.

It seems ONE humane & progressive way for purebred dogs to live and contribute, too. Fits in with present laws & is not best conceptualised as a way to avoid laws. It has good goals in its own right.

Opps found the other post and your response.

Well if you feel this is a good thing for us here in Australia, sugest strong laws that will limit of the numbers of dogs that can be kept by any one breeder (2-3 sounds about what you think might work out) and the law can make sugestions that breeders find other homes for their breeding dogs that go over the limit or they can ask the RSPCA to find homes for them.

I am so glad I will not be breeding in this great new world of governement controlled dog breeding.

[Steve]

Amazing- How many parents would want DOCS coming to their homes and doing random inspections on where their kids sleep? How many parents don't have the right to choose whether their kids are not vaccinated? I have a 13 year old son who has been to the doctors [except for vaccinations] twice in his life. Thank God I don't have to keep health records for him! I went to the doctors this year on my birthday - the first time for 6 years yet I'm a bad person if I don't take my dogs every year?????

[mita]

This pic sums up a good 'birthing' establishment for my preferred breed which shines as an inside companion dog.

Pic taken in a room of a registered breeder's house, with a 'baby-sitter' helping out. By the way, the baby-sitter is not related to the puppies.

Just another family member helping out & taking a snooze.

Another secret ingredient in a beautifully bred pure-bred dog. Don't know if and how this could ever be put into legislation, tho'.

Wouldn't it just follow that every step needed to care for these babies would be taken by such a breeder?