Puppy Farm Awareness Rally

[toy dog]

Derryn Hinch is not backward in what he comes out with so think he is a good spokesman

I missed the tv with DOLers

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/09/17/3015062.htm

High-profile broadcaster Derryn Hinch says shops should stop selling pets in order to shut down the "cruel and brutal" puppy farm trade

keep ringing his radio talk back and bring up the subject and he will continue to broadcast it around

i get really angry when i read that banksia have been breeding for 50 years! being in the same area for many years it is less than us, its only 20 i think they are combining peoples experience together. they did not start in 1960!!!!! and to say they are different more upmarket is bullocks, many witnesses on their open day to say otherwise, they hid many areas from public view. they only show the good areas to councillors. councillors have it in their heads that this farm is cleaner and better than all other farms, but they are one and the same.

[toy dog]

Oh yeh Banskia looks like the dogs are in great conditions

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/backgroundbriefin...rowofcages2.htm

exactly look at the photos on prisoners for profit that some of the visitors took.

[Souff]

What happens if the average registered breeder who has a few litters, enjoys showing and carefully places their puppies, cannot comply with any new legislation? What if the new legislation is made to hard to comply with for those breeders who live in the suburbs. You have to put all the pieces together and think about ramifications. New laws are going to lead to a few big puppy farm operations that supply all our dogs. They will be making a killing so will be bale to pay a small amount to comply. How can a small exhibitor/breeder pay the same fees when they are already out of pocket so much because they do the right thing? We have already seen what the RSPCA do to registered breeders, imagine giving them the power to walk into your home just because you are a breeder, you won't even have to have a complaint made against you.

You can look forward to a world of non health tested DDs. As for the canine bodies not doing anything to stop it getting to this stage, disgusting, and I've told them so.

ANKC breeders are dropping like flies already. There are 30,000 a year fewer ANKC pups born today than 30 years ago! Yet the number of dogs being born is escalating every year. Estimated at over 1 million dogs born a year, of which only 60,000 are ANKC dogs. ANKC breeders are already a tiny minority in the world of dog breeding.

I think you are right, the only people who will breed dogs if things keep going the way they are now will be businesses. They will be highly regulated puppy mills that can afford to breed dogs under systems that make it difficult for those not cashed and lawyered up.

If they would put up a bill that just banned pet shop sales (yes include internet and other forms of advertizing if that seem right) and do not add on anything else to the bill. It would pass. This would wipe out most puppy farms or at least take away much of their sales.

At any rate, I remain optimistic. I am envisioning a future about 20 years from now. A secret underground network of (old fashion) dog breeders. They never sell their dogs. They breed very rarely, keeping the pup they want and place the others with trusted friends and other breed fanciers. Keeping a small gene pool going of selected lines of their breed going forward. When this happens, will you few remaining purebred dog owners let me know, I want in! LOL

You and Oakway have pretty much said it for me, IJD. We are far closer to the situation you have described than many of the muddle headed wombats realise.

Many of the MHWs have lost their climate change barrow and thinking people now know that the sky is not going to fall in because the weather is changing in much the same way that it did centuries ago. Looks like the carbon tax credits scheme is all washed up too.

Many are nothing without a cause.

So their focus now is to get rid of dog breeders who have more than a couple of dogs to their name.

The wheel will turn full circle eventually but the bloodlines of a lot of good dogs will be lost to this country.

The MHWs can hug their crossbred mutts and see Australian dogs become increasingly crossbred and deficient, because there simply wont be enough good quality breeding stock to go round.

They will get their way in parliaments and the dogs, as a species, will suffer.

Souff

[asal]

What happens if the average registered breeder who has a few litters, enjoys showing and carefully places their puppies, cannot comply with any new legislation? What if the new legislation is made to hard to comply with for those breeders who live in the suburbs. You have to put all the pieces together and think about ramifications. New laws are going to lead to a few big puppy farm operations that supply all our dogs. They will be making a killing so will be bale to pay a small amount to comply. How can a small exhibitor/breeder pay the same fees when they are already out of pocket so much because they do the right thing? We have already seen what the RSPCA do to registered breeders, imagine giving them the power to walk into your home just because you are a breeder, you won't even have to have a complaint made against you.

You can look forward to a world of non health tested DDs. As for the canine bodies not doing anything to stop it getting to this stage, disgusting, and I've told them so.

ANKC breeders are dropping like flies already. There are 30,000 a year fewer ANKC pups born today than 30 years ago! Yet the number of dogs being born is escalating every year. Estimated at over 1 million dogs born a year, of which only 60,000 are ANKC dogs. ANKC breeders are already a tiny minority in the world of dog breeding.

I think you are right, the only people who will breed dogs if things keep going the way they are now will be businesses. They will be highly regulated puppy mills that can afford to breed dogs under systems that make it difficult for those not cashed and lawyered up.

If they would put up a bill that just banned pet shop sales (yes include internet and other forms of advertizing if that seem right) and do not add on anything else to the bill. It would pass. This would wipe out most puppy farms or at least take away much of their sales.

At any rate, I remain optimistic. I am envisioning a future about 20 years from now. A secret underground network of (old fashion) dog breeders. They never sell their dogs. They breed very rarely, keeping the pup they want and place the others with trusted friends and other breed fanciers. Keeping a small gene pool going of selected lines of their breed going forward. When this happens, will you few remaining purebred dog owners let me know, I want in! LOL

LOL all right, thats pretty much what it will be

[Christina]

Oh yeh Banskia looks like the dogs are in great conditions

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/backgroundbriefin...rowofcages2.htm

:laugh: :D No dog should live like this.

[asal]

What happens if the average registered breeder who has a few litters, enjoys showing and carefully places their puppies, cannot comply with any new legislation? What if the new legislation is made to hard to comply with for those breeders who live in the suburbs. You have to put all the pieces together and think about ramifications. New laws are going to lead to a few big puppy farm operations that supply all our dogs. They will be making a killing so will be bale to pay a small amount to comply. How can a small exhibitor/breeder pay the same fees when they are already out of pocket so much because they do the right thing? We have already seen what the RSPCA do to registered breeders, imagine giving them the power to walk into your home just because you are a breeder, you won't even have to have a complaint made against you.

You can look forward to a world of non health tested DDs. As for the canine bodies not doing anything to stop it getting to this stage, disgusting, and I've told them so.

We will all go down the gurgler because of their stupidity.

Many of us live in other states, and why would we attend something that we believe will harm us.

We have complained about farms and complained bitterly.

Their are other people also working on the puppy farm situation not only you.

Don't any of you dare take a holier than thou attitude with those that work so hard to eradicate puppy farmers.

Never have any registered breeders said they don't support you in your efforts over puppy farms.

What we don't support is that we as breeders are being included in all and sundry.

Some of you have only scratched the surface, but some of us have dug deeper.

Some of us have been through things like this before and been caught and we don't intend to get caught again.

We can appreciate your feelings over puppy farms and will stand firm with you as our feelings are the same.

It is some of you that have no appreciation for the way registered breeders feel about us being included. And included we have been.

Have a thought for us as we can end up losing out big time.... Our dogs. Most registered breeders are the least of your worries.

If we go, where do you get healthy, home reared, health tested puppies from ?.

I am so angry that a group of people could cause me to lose the thing that I love...breeding a better dog than the litter before. Just because you have no foresight in the matter, and can't see that this will turned around and come back to bite us all.

aint going to work

set out to destroy p f's and you ultimately destroy your self.

how?

you think your ethical, who says other registered breeders do?

every witchhunt, every pogram ie spanish inquisition, saw thousands of innocents die. considering today we know witches dont exist any more than santa clause is still here and delivering presents. every witch that died did so because somone didnt like em

how confident are any of you that everyone in this world likes u?

find out soon enough when u discover yr tied at the stake this time instead of among the crowd watching the latest burn .

remember every one of those "witches" was once living their life same as u, well until they were decided to be witches

Edited September 19, 2010 by asal

[Lhok]

I still am not sure this will work guys I mean you can change the law all you want make people aware of what is going on but in the end you are still dealing with humans. The very nature of humans is fickle and deceptive and I really doubt that any law you change or enforce will stop humans from doing what they want. The whole "it won't happen to me" or "I can do what I want and you can't tell me not to" mentality.

As for responsible breeders being exempt because if they are doing everything right they have nothing to fear, they have everything to fear because it is their homes and lives that can and will be changed when they get home searched. Maybe the people who do the home search find nothing but that is a big black mark in other people's minds about that person and that alone can cause problems. Not to mention that you will be monitored afterwards regardless of being cleared.

Another thing I still haven't found out is what exactly is a puppy farmer?

My definition could be entirely different to yours for example my definition of a puppy farmer is one who has not got the welfare of the dogs at heart, has too many dogs then they can possibly manage (and everyone is different so it is case by case), breeds for the sake of breeding and profit and when they sell puppies they go for who ever can provide the money they are asking.

--Lhok

[toy dog]

What happens if the average registered breeder who has a few litters, enjoys showing and carefully places their puppies, cannot comply with any new legislation? What if the new legislation is made to hard to comply with for those breeders who live in the suburbs. You have to put all the pieces together and think about ramifications. New laws are going to lead to a few big puppy farm operations that supply all our dogs. They will be making a killing so will be bale to pay a small amount to comply. How can a small exhibitor/breeder pay the same fees when they are already out of pocket so much because they do the right thing? We have already seen what the RSPCA do to registered breeders, imagine giving them the power to walk into your home just because you are a breeder, you won't even have to have a complaint made against you.

You can look forward to a world of non health tested DDs. As for the canine bodies not doing anything to stop it getting to this stage, disgusting, and I've told them so.

We will all go down the gurgler because of their stupidity.

Many of us live in other states, and why would we attend something that we believe will harm us.

We have complained about farms and complained bitterly.

Their are other people also working on the puppy farm situation not only you.

Don't any of you dare take a holier than thou attitude with those that work so hard to eradicate puppy farmers.

Never have any registered breeders said they don't support you in your efforts over puppy farms.

What we don't support is that we as breeders are being included in all and sundry.

Some of you have only scratched the surface, but some of us have dug deeper.

Some of us have been through things like this before and been caught and we don't intend to get caught again.

We can appreciate your feelings over puppy farms and will stand firm with you as our feelings are the same.

It is some of you that have no appreciation for the way registered breeders feel about us being included. And included we have been.

Have a thought for us as we can end up losing out big time.... Our dogs. Most registered breeders are the least of your worries.

If we go, where do you get healthy, home reared, health tested puppies from ?.

I am so angry that a group of people could cause me to lose the thing that I love...breeding a better dog than the litter before. Just because you have no foresight in the matter, and can't see that this will turned around and come back to bite us all.

aint going to work

set out to destroy p f's and you ultimately destroy your self.

how?

you think your ethical, who says other registered breeders do?

every witchhunt, every pogram ie spanish inquisition, saw thousands of innocents die. considering today we know witches dont exist any more than santa clause is still here and delivering presents. every witch that died did so because somone didnt like em

how confident are any of you that everyone in this world likes u?

find out soon enough when u discover yr tied at the stake this time instead of among the crowd watching the latest burn

its easy to see in the RSPCA website that they are out to get registered breeders this is why many are upset and i can't blame them. most of RSPCA information is incorrect they are including ethical small hobby breeders in the equation and you can't tell them different. tightening of existing laws isn't going to do much for anyone, DD"s will still be bred in large scale......banning sales in petshops as the rally suggested as Darren hinch said., will turn the puppy trade upside down on its head then it will be back to registered breeds as it should be and how it was many years ago before this DD craze, it has happened in other countries after banning live pet sales in shops also it curbs impulse buying and thousands of shelter dogs, petshops are just fueling this DD craze, backyarders see how much money they make breed up themselves and then we get an overload in shelters as you all know.

RSPCA views is pretty wacked from what i've read.......there is already laws that farms comply with, backyarders comply with......one clear message needs to get through to stop all this craziness and pointing fingers at the wrong groups, that is ban dog and cat sales in shops.

Edited September 19, 2010 by toy dog

[oakway]

I'm still a little confused to be honest, but can I just say, that I'm sure, if any future proposed legislation threatened to adversely affect what I thought to be ethical, registered 'in the home' breeders of pure breed dogs, I would attend a rally against specific laws for that too! I'm sure most DOLers who attended yesterday would, being that most of us have happily sourced dogs this way.

I don't frown upon anyone who didn't attend, I'm just genuinely trying to understand how this will affect small-scale 'in the home' operations, I still don't get it....maybe I'm a bit slow...

As for those wanting to simply make sure that the current legislation is properly administered and not changed. This means puppy farming operations will still exist!! Even if facilities are clean, the 'right' size, within certain numbers, etc., do you really think any dog deserves this life, mostly spent in a pen, with no socialisation or family?? But, you and your dogs and breeding program will be safe...is that all the matters?

It's quite simple, the word puppy farm is an emotive one and gets people's back's up. Puppy farmers get up all our noses too but.........

Define puppy farmer?????????.

It's definitely not the mating of a male and female dog dog together because that's what ethical registered breeders do to give you the beautiful pet's that you have with you.

What we all complain about is the way these animals are kept/treated.

The lack of or non existence of care.

The lack of or non existence of shelter.

The lack of or non existence of sanitary conditions.

I could go on and and on.

The sad thing is that we are all on the one side.

Then up comes a situation like this and we are all tared with the one brush.

Do you think the media visual and print care about registered breeders, all they care about is sales and ratings so we again get lumped together.

The animal libbers have been waiting for a chance just like this and now it's been handed to them.

The good and the bad have been mixed and the registered breeders will suffer.

No wonder people are sitting at their computers looking into a class action against people that deprive registered breeders of their right to breed.

Most local shires and council's have rules and regulation that could shut most of these puppy farms down overnight.

Why not attack those that are not doing their jobs.

We as registered breeders will be their in a flash to offer help.

Because of people organising rallies and protests the governing bodies are placing ever tighter regulation on their registered breeders trying to show the public that we are doing our best.

Little do the governing bodies realise that this is just what the animal libbers want. More rules and more regulations that make it almost impossible to continue breeding.

Then what happens, we give up, because it's all just becoming to hard.

All that is being done at the moment is that WE are ALL playing right into the hands of the animal libbers and most of you can't see it.

I say, how dare any of you deprive me and fellow breeders of the right to breed, just because puppy farmers upset you, they upset us to you know.

I say go to the cause of the problem and make the local councils and shires do their jobs.

Stopping puppies being sold in pet shops will also go a long way in eradicating puppy farmers. NO outlet NO income.

[mita]

If everyone is so concerned about registered breeders being targetted, please tell me WHERE were your representatives?? Why did DOGS VIC not attend to promote and present registered breeders point of difference. Perhaps you should direct complaints to them for not being a part of what was a superb event.

I did 2 interviews for channel 7 and the ABC as well as my speech and the point was made about the difference between registered ethical breeders and puppy factories. Its not all cloak and dagger conspiracies and maybe if people actually got involved instead of complaining, responsible and effective change could be made more promptly.

Which is why I was pleased to hear that you spoke at the rally, Cosmolo. Your work on dog behaviour slots right into the fact that early socialisation by those who breed & raise puppies, is critical to avoiding later problems.

You are so right that it would be good to hear the voices from DOGS VIC. And there are voices of registered breeders who tell it brilliantly.

Some time back, I heard the Rottie breeder who heads the DOGS VIC pet therapy team, being interviewed on the ABC radio.

The interviewer expressed surprise that the Rottie would be taken to do pet therapy work in nursing homes.

He obviously thought via a common stereotype that such a breed would eat the residents. That registered breeder then gave a brief, articulate & brilliant run-down about the best of pure-bred dog breeding.

How decisions are made across generations, re which dogs to breed with (for health, temperament & conformation). Then she talked about the critical importance of socialisation with people, other creatures, and the sights and sounds of the real world. And gave examples of how she did that, with her puppies and dogs.

I squirreled away that DOGS VIC breeder's name. She would make a brilliant spokesperson for what is entailed in high quality breeding practice. Cosmolo, you & she would make a perfect speaking team because what you both say, complements each other.

By the way, her Rottie & the other dogs in the pet therapy team, are still showdogs. She said the residents in the nursing homes take a great interest in seeing what prizes 'their' dogs have won at a show the weekend before.

I looked up that Pet Therapy team on DOGS VIC website, after I heard the radio program.

http://www.dogsvictoria.org.au/Content.asp?ID=180

Edited September 20, 2010 by mita

[mackiemad]

RSPCA views is pretty wacked from what i've read.......there is already laws that farms comply with, backyarders comply with......one clear message needs to get through to stop all this craziness and pointing fingers at the wrong groups, that is ban dog and cat sales in shops.

yes there are already laws to be complied with, except that it is up to the council to act on them, not anyone else. the council, who is taking the money of registering the property as a domestic animal business. the council, who has nothing to gain by stopping it. the council who probably want to encourage 'business' in their area-they have to pay rates etc. the council, who don't even have educated animal people to conduct searches and ensure that everything is up to scratch!

and this change that is being advocated is actually asking to stop the sale of animals, specifically puppies here, in pet shops, but i personally don't think that is the most effective way-it just pushes them furthur underground.

for goodness sakes, the rspca is not out to get you. they did not organise the rally but they attended. they did not tell their staff they must or must not attend either. i attended of my own free will and volition. i agree that as an organisation the rspca should be altered and looked at-prosecuting and investigating should never be done by the same organisation. however, even though i don't get along personally with everyone i work with, i do believe that they aren't 'after' registered breeders, believe it or not, but many of these people that you are so happy to vilify as maniacs and power hungry beasts are just humans, who work everyday with animals because they love them and are just trying to do the right thing. they are often involved in the dog world just like you or me. also do not forget that the rspca in the various states are run by different people and to a different agenda/cause or code in each state.

i for one would rather try to stamp out unethical beeding of companion animals for profit. 'oscar's law' is just a means to asking for that. nothing has been decided and it will have to be discussed and examined before anything went ahead. why on earth people think that they'll be stopped ethically breeding because of the size of a whelping box is a bit beyond me. nothing has been said about that. it is more about psychological enrichment and development, ensuring an animal's optimum physical and mental wellbeing. also included in sue's (the greens MLA) speech was intensive farming of animals such as pigs and chickens-there is NO way any self-respecting animal person could be ok with that situation? to allow battery hens and pig to be locked in such small pens is simply unethical and cruel- pigs are believed to be as smart as a 5 year old, smarter than many dogs and we woudn't accept it for canines.

it was also mentioned that the sale of UNREGISTERED puppies overseas-their export- will be monitored or examined. so to me, it sounds like even though the purebred organisations aren't speaking up they are being considered...

the truth is that we haven't enough legsialtion or penalities for animal cruelty in victoria or australia. we have plenty of legislation saying you can or can't do this, or they can do whatever they want-such as the dangerous dog amendment, but actually protecting animals? nup. most of the US has tougher penalties, something they did because of the clear, researched link between aniaml cruelty and serious crime. did you know that victoria was the first australian colony to have an animal welfare act, the Protection of Animals Act 1881-only thrity or so years after the us and britain. historically we are slow to act. all we want now is to try and rectify that.

anyhoo, i've had enough of the argument. i'm not happy having to stand side by side with ALV but if i can be the moderate voice among those calling for change that i agree with, then i will. it is true, i am not a breeder, nor do i ever want to be a breeder-but we don't want to cancel our all breeders alltogether. i'm sure elements we regard as ethical, such as health testing your stock, will be included in any legislation that, at this time, is still a fantasy anyway.

[asal]

RSPCA views is pretty wacked from what i've read.......there is already laws that farms comply with, backyarders comply with......one clear message needs to get through to stop all this craziness and pointing fingers at the wrong groups, that is ban dog and cat sales in shops.

yes there are already laws to be complied with, except that it is up to the council to act on them, not anyone else. the council, who is taking the money of registering the property as a domestic animal business. the council, who has nothing to gain by stopping it. the council who probably want to encourage 'business' in their area-they have to pay rates etc. the council, who don't even have educated animal people to conduct searches and ensure that everything is up to scratch!

and this change that is being advocated is actually asking to stop the sale of animals, specifically puppies here, in pet shops, but i personally don't think that is the most effective way-it just pushes them furthur underground.

for goodness sakes, the rspca is not out to get you. they did not organise the rally but they attended. they did not tell their staff they must or must not attend either. i attended of my own free will and volition. i agree that as an organisation the rspca should be altered and looked at-prosecuting and investigating should never be done by the same organisation. however, even though i don't get along personally with everyone i work with, i do believe that they aren't 'after' registered breeders, believe it or not, but many of these people that you are so happy to vilify as maniacs and power hungry beasts are just humans, who work everyday with animals because they love them and are just trying to do the right thing. they are often involved in the dog world just like you or me. also do not forget that the rspca in the various states are run by different people and to a different agenda/cause or code in each state.

i for one would rather try to stamp out unethical beeding of companion animals for profit. 'oscar's law' is just a means to asking for that. nothing has been decided and it will have to be discussed and examined before anything went ahead. why on earth people think that they'll be stopped ethically breeding because of the size of a whelping box is a bit beyond me. nothing has been said about that. it is more about psychological enrichment and development, ensuring an animal's optimum physical and mental wellbeing. also included in sue's (the greens MLA) speech was intensive farming of animals such as pigs and chickens-there is NO way any self-respecting animal person could be ok with that situation? to allow battery hens and pig to be locked in such small pens is simply unethical and cruel- pigs are believed to be as smart as a 5 year old, smarter than many dogs and we woudn't accept it for canines.

it was also mentioned that the sale of UNREGISTERED puppies overseas-their export- will be monitored or examined. so to me, it sounds like even though the purebred organisations aren't speaking up they are being considered...

the truth is that we haven't enough legsialtion or penalities for animal cruelty in victoria or australia. we have plenty of legislation saying you can or can't do this, or they can do whatever they want-such as the dangerous dog amendment, but actually protecting animals? nup. most of the US has tougher penalties, something they did because of the clear, researched link between aniaml cruelty and serious crime. did you know that victoria was the first australian colony to have an animal welfare act, the Protection of Animals Act 1881-only thrity or so years after the us and britain. historically we are slow to act. all we want now is to try and rectify that.

anyhoo, i've had enough of the argument. i'm not happy having to stand side by side with ALV but if i can be the moderate voice among those calling for change that i agree with, then i will. it is true, i am not a breeder, nor do i ever want to be a breeder-but we don't want to cancel our all breeders alltogether. i'm sure elements we regard as ethical, such as health testing your stock, will be included in any legislation that, at this time, is still a fantasy anyway.

hullo? theres a lady facing over 80 years jail time for showing a debarked dog (or dogs, forget which)? 42 charges for every show they attended, thats what the rspca is wasting its time on.

it was not illegially debarked, it was done by the owners vet to the legislation in place where that vet is.

Edited September 20, 2010 by asal

[oakway]

RSPCA views is pretty wacked from what i've read.......there is already laws that farms comply with, backyarders comply with......one clear message needs to get through to stop all this craziness and pointing fingers at the wrong groups, that is ban dog and cat sales in shops.

yes there are already laws to be complied with, except that it is up to the council to act on them, not anyone else. the council, who is taking the money of registering the property as a domestic animal business. the council, who has nothing to gain by stopping it. the council who probably want to encourage 'business' in their area-they have to pay rates etc. the council, who don't even have educated animal people to conduct searches and ensure that everything is up to scratch!

and this change that is being advocated is actually asking to stop the sale of animals, specifically puppies here, in pet shops, but i personally don't think that is the most effective way-it just pushes them furthur underground.

for goodness sakes, the rspca is not out to get you. they did not organise the rally but they attended. they did not tell their staff they must or must not attend either. i attended of my own free will and volition. i agree that as an organisation the rspca should be altered and looked at-prosecuting and investigating should never be done by the same organisation. however, even though i don't get along personally with everyone i work with, i do believe that they aren't 'after' registered breeders, believe it or not, but many of these people that you are so happy to vilify as maniacs and power hungry beasts are just humans, who work everyday with animals because they love them and are just trying to do the right thing. they are often involved in the dog world just like you or me. also do not forget that the rspca in the various states are run by different people and to a different agenda/cause or code in each state.

i for one would rather try to stamp out unethical beeding of companion animals for profit. 'oscar's law' is just a means to asking for that. nothing has been decided and it will have to be discussed and examined before anything went ahead. why on earth people think that they'll be stopped ethically breeding because of the size of a whelping box is a bit beyond me. nothing has been said about that. it is more about psychological enrichment and development, ensuring an animal's optimum physical and mental wellbeing. also included in sue's (the greens MLA) speech was intensive farming of animals such as pigs and chickens-there is NO way any self-respecting animal person could be ok with that situation? to allow battery hens and pig to be locked in such small pens is simply unethical and cruel- pigs are believed to be as smart as a 5 year old, smarter than many dogs and we woudn't accept it for canines.

it was also mentioned that the sale of UNREGISTERED puppies overseas-their export- will be monitored or examined. so to me, it sounds like even though the purebred organisations aren't speaking up they are being considered...

the truth is that we haven't enough legsialtion or penalities for animal cruelty in victoria or australia. we have plenty of legislation saying you can or can't do this, or they can do whatever they want-such as the dangerous dog amendment, but actually protecting animals? nup. most of the US has tougher penalties, something they did because of the clear, researched link between aniaml cruelty and serious crime. did you know that victoria was the first australian colony to have an animal welfare act, the Protection of Animals Act 1881-only thrity or so years after the us and britain. historically we are slow to act. all we want now is to try and rectify that.

anyhoo, i've had enough of the argument. i'm not happy having to stand side by side with ALV but if i can be the moderate voice among those calling for change that i agree with, then i will. it is true, i am not a breeder, nor do i ever want to be a breeder-but we don't want to cancel our all breeders alltogether. i'm sure elements we regard as ethical, such as health testing your stock, will be included in any legislation that, at this time, is still a fantasy anyway.

hullo? theres a lady facing over 80 years jail time for showing a debarked dog (or dogs, forget which)? 42 charges for every show they attended, thats what the rspca is wasting its time on.

it was not illegially debarked, it was done by the owners vet to the legislation in place where that vet is.

You beat me to it asal. If the RSPCA are not out to get us...let them drop all charges against Judy Guard.

[Christina]

RSPCA views is pretty wacked from what i've read.......there is already laws that farms comply with, backyarders comply with......one clear message needs to get through to stop all this craziness and pointing fingers at the wrong groups, that is ban dog and cat sales in shops.

many of these people that you are so happy to vilify as maniacs and power hungry beasts are just humans, who work everyday with animals because they love them and are just trying to do the right thing. they are often involved in the dog world just like you or me.

It is true we have enough laws to deal with this but they are not enforced.

Lots of wonderful, animal loving people do work & volunteer for the RSPCA but they have to do as they are told & sign a confidentially agreement, so some big shocks for many I guess when they are on the inside.

It is the power hungry beasts in the organisation that are frightening & they do not seem to be answerable to anyone when they make huge mistakes & misjudgements in handling situations.

Honestly don't know what the answer is to this problem but it does cause untold grief to many innocent people & still leaves many cases of cruelty & neglect to go on.

Quite scary really & so wrong.

[mita]

it was not illegially debarked, it was done by the owners vet to the legislation in place where that vet is.

It told a lot about the legislation as it is written in Victoria. I still find it hard to believe what that state's cruelty legislation says. That animals can be among the 'things' taken away as evidence. Must be the only place on earth that defines a living creature as a 'thing'. It also reaches its tentacles into other states. Even tho' the debarking, in that case, was carried out in accord with the law in the state where the lady's vet is....the Vic law covers that. Not allowed.

And it doesn't stop there, breeders who show their 'debarked in another state' dogs then incur a further penalty because they've then shown their dogs in Victoria.

If it'd been a mixed-breed dog, there's no additional penalty.

Still doesn't stop there, the Vic law says that debarking is prohibited in their state. But wait, it really isn't. Because in the same law, it sets out how debarking can be carried out, but a certain procedure must be followed. Which means it's actually a restricted procedure in Victoria.

Legislation written like this, is a mine-field for anyone to track thro' (took me ages to figure that its section on 'Things' included animals).

The problem is that law....which says that it the responsibility of the relevant Minister to enforce. The law enforcement body that puts it into practice is RSPCA Victoria. If ever a law needed reform, that one does.

Edited September 20, 2010 by mita

[pip1981]

I say, how dare any of you deprive me and fellow breeders of the right to breed, just because puppy farmers upset you, they upset us to you know.

Stopping puppies being sold in pet shops will also go a long way in eradicating puppy farmers. NO outlet NO income.

No one here attended the rally to deprive ethical breeders from continuing their worthy breeding programs, for dog's sake, that's where my own dogs come from!!

Unfortunately, yes I'm sure some people in attendance yesterday are extreme liberationists and disagree with all animal captivity, but that was NOT the aim of the rally, nor is it the aim of 'Oscar's Law'.

I, for one, think that general good health, shelter, food, etc., of pets (including breeding animals) is a given, and yes, the current laws should be enforced to make everyone comply with these aspects. But, these alone, would not shut down all large scale breeding operations, and as far as I can tell, some registered breeders run large scale operations that I would consider to be puppy farms. I think 'puppy farming' mainly relates to the size of the operation (how many dogs) and the profits involved. However, a formal definition would be very hard to create, as it also relates to individual situations, as another poster touched on. For eg. If the breeder or someone on their behalf (family, etc.) is at home 24/7, then the amount of dogs who would realistically get everything they need (exercise, socialisation, affection, etc.) might be higher. However, I'm sure some breeders work full-time, have other hobbies, manage families, etc., and there would be a lower number of dogs they could 'care for'. For this reason, I think even registered breeders should be open to inspections for an 'individual assessment' of some kind, and an inspection wouldn't make them 'look bad', as everyone would be under the same microscope (similar to being randomly audited for tax purposes, it doesn't mean you've done something wrong).

As for stopping puppies being sold in pet shops, I don't think you'd find anyone on this whole forum who would disagree.

Edited September 20, 2010 by pip1981

[Cosmolo]

Oakway- that IS part of Oscars Law. For goodness sake, go and read what was being protested!!

[oakway]

I say, how dare any of you deprive me and fellow breeders of the right to breed, just because puppy farmers upset you, they upset us to you know.

Stopping puppies being sold in pet shops will also go a long way in eradicating puppy farmers. NO outlet NO income.

No one here attended the rally to deprive ethical breeders from continuing their worthy breeding programs, for dog's sake, that's where my own dogs come from!!

Unfortunately, yes I'm sure some people in attendance yesterday are extreme liberationists and disagree with all animal captivity, but that was NOT the aim of the rally, nor is it the aim of 'Oscar's Law'.

I, for one, think that general good health, shelter, food, etc., of pets (including breeding animals) is a given, and yes, the current laws should be enforced to make everyone comply with these aspects. But, these alone, would not shut down all large scale breeding operations, and as far as I can tell, some registered breeders run large scale operations that I would consider to be puppy farms. I think 'puppy farming' mainly relates to the size of the operation (how many dogs) and the profits involved. However, a formal definition would be very hard to create, as it also relates to individual situations, as another poster touched on quite a few pages back. For eg. If the breeder or someone on their behalf (family, etc.) is at home 24/7, then the amount of dogs who would realistically get everything they need (exercise, socialisation, affection, etc.) might be higher. However, I'm sure some breeders work full-time, have other hobbies, manage families, etc., and there would be a lower number of dogs they could 'care for'. For this reason, I think even registered breeders should be open to inspections for an 'individual assessment' of some kind, and an inspection wouldn't make them 'look bad', as everyone would be under the same microscope (similar to being randomly audited for tax purposes, it doesn't mean you've done something wrong).

As for stopping puppies being sold in pet shops, I don't think you'd find anyone on this whole forum who would disagree.

pip 1981,

I hear and understand what you are saying.

Many registered breeders can run large kennels and still give their dogs all the necessary love and care needed.

Many also run smaller kennels and I wouldn't want to be owned by them if I was a dog.

Some people have have greater skills than others when it comes to managing dogs.

As you have said this comes down to individuals and should be judges on it's merits.

We must also allow for the dog owner that is just so over the top about their dogs they become ridiculous.

Again, must be judged on their merits.

We ALL must remember that it is NOT a crime to breed dogs in this country and sell them.

What we are really saying is that it SHOULD be a crime as to way some of them are treated, actually it is a crime,

but the authorities do nothing about it.

As I have said target where the Duty of Care should come in with the Local Shires and Councils.

Yes in closing down puppy farms Councils may lose a bit of money, but the local rates and taxes still apply.

Let's face it what the Councils lose on the swings they will make up on the merry go round in some way.

[asal]

RSPCA views is pretty wacked from what i've read.......there is already laws that farms comply with, backyarders comply with......one clear message needs to get through to stop all this craziness and pointing fingers at the wrong groups, that is ban dog and cat sales in shops.

many of these people that you are so happy to vilify as maniacs and power hungry beasts are just humans, who work everyday with animals because they love them and are just trying to do the right thing. they are often involved in the dog world just like you or me.

It is true we have enough laws to deal with this but they are not enforced.

Lots of wonderful, animal loving people do work & volunteer for the RSPCA but they have to do as they are told & sign a confidentially agreement, so some big shocks for many I guess when they are on the inside.

It is the power hungry beasts in the organisation that are frightening & they do not seem to be answerable to anyone when they make huge mistakes & misjudgements in handling situations.

Honestly don't know what the answer is to this problem but it does cause untold grief to many innocent people & still leaves many cases of cruelty & neglect to go on.

Quite scary really & so wrong.

there is an answer, the polies enact one more little piece of legislation, where the persecuted can appeal.

its not a case of "they do not seem"...THERE ISNT ANY APPEAL AVENUE TO DATE WITH NOTHING IN THE PIPELINE EITHER

A MURDERER as more rights

Edited September 20, 2010 by asal

[Souff]

You beat me to it asal. If the RSPCA are not out to get us...let them drop all charges against Judy Guard.

"If the RSPCA are not out to get us...let them drop all charges against Judy Guard."

Good call, Oakway!