Puppy Farm Awareness Rally

[Steve]

this one is for the tethering of working dogs in Victoria.

3.1 Dogs

• The site must provide a minimum tether radius of three metres allowing six metres of run.
  
• Dogs less than four months old should not be tethered.
  
• Bitches in season must not be tethered where entire males may have access.
  
• Bitches about to give birth must not be tethered.
  
• Tethered dogs must have ready access to a kennel, shed or other protection from the elements and for sleeping. The kennel should be of an appropriate size for the particular animal and must not cause a threat of entanglement.
  
• As a guide, working farm dogs should be let off tethers at least two hours per day during daylight hours. It is recommended that wherever possible all other dogs that are tethered should be released under supervision for 2 hours in every 12 hours.
  
• Dogs must not be tethered adjacent to a fence in a manner that places them at danger of death by hanging.
  

[toy dog]

cut and pasted from oscar laws website:

What is the difference between a registered breeder and a puppy factory (and how will I know)?A registered breeder is registered with the Australian National Kennel Council and must meet certain requirements. A breeder will usually specialise in one breed and is also likely to be involved in showing that breed. Our studies show most are not only involved in one breed

A puppy factory will not be registered with the ANKC. Some breeders who breed hundreds of puppies each year are registered with the ANKC and you can be registered with the ANKC and breed dogs other than purebred registered dogs.The ANKC codes of conduct only cover what you can do with your ANKC registered dogs But anyone can be and is an ANKC registered breeder. In fact several of the members of the Australian Association of Pet Dog Breeders - a puppy farmer group are ANKC registered breeders. Many claim to be registered, but they are just a 'registered' business! The ANKC only registers 'pure breed' dog breeders .The ANKC only registers purebred dogs any one including any dog breeder can be an ANKC member. All designer dogs are cross breeds.

A breeder will be happy for you to visit them to meet the parents and the pups at their own premises, in fact most will insist.Many purebred dog breeders are not happy for people to visit their homes for a variety of reasons. Puppy factories will not. If puppy factories who meet the legal requirements of minimum standards of care will not let you see their breeding facilities - they know that you will be horrified.Not necessarily these days most dont want anyone visiting because they are worried about redneck animal rights.

A breeder will know about their breed, they will be happy to answer your questions and are very likely to have plenty of their own. If you are suspicious, go home and do some research.

What's wrong with cross breed dogs?Nothing! Cross breed dogs are just as likely to make a wonderful pet as a pure breed. But because puppy factory dogs are mass produced and kept in isolated conditions until purchase, they have a high likelihood of suffering from behavioural and health problems. Where are the studies to support this?

Why are there health problems with pups from puppy factories?Many breeds of dogs have conditions that they are prone to, such as hip dysplasia, chronic skin conditions, overshot jaws and heart murmurs. Good breeders test their breeding dogs for these conditions prior to mating. Puppy factories do not some puppy factories do test their parent stock and do know the pedigrees of the parents, in fact many of them are vets. and, as they have no contact with the puppies once they have left the factory, they have no idea what genetic defects they are continuing to breed into these puppies.Many registered purebred breeders dont have anything to do with their puppy buyers after the sale either.

Why are pet shop puppies more likely to have behaviour problems?It has been known by behaviourists for years that the most important time in a puppy's development is between 3 to 12 weeks and puppies isolated during this time (say in a glass box in a pet shop or cage at a factory) are much more likely develop behavioural issues than a well socialised dog. Where are the studies to back up assumptions that pet shop puppies are not handled or socialised.Whats the difference to being in a glass enclosure at a pet shop to being in a crate in a lounge room? Pet shops and commercial breeders are saying they do socialise their puppies.

In short - puppy factory puppies miss out on the two things that are known to help shape a good, stable temperament for later life; good breeding and many and varied positive life experiences before the age of seven weeks. As long as they're cute and fluffy, the factory farmer gets his money.

What happens to ex-breeding stock?Dogs should not be bred every heat cycle as it is bad for their bodies.Not true the science of dog breeding tells us exactly the opposite - its worse for a bitch to be stopped from breeding see my above posts on pyometra. Puppy factory bitches are bred every time they come into heat, until their uterus prolapses and falls out of their body.Not true prolapse isnt caused by having puppies every season - its caused by not having puppies every season and cysts which are in the uterus coming out or its caused by being in labour too long without help or puppies being too big. There is no evidence to prove puppy farm bitches get prolapses any more often than regsitered purebred bitches. Once the dog is no longer useful for breeding it is destroyed and replaced by one of her female pups.I know registered purebred breeders who do this and many now are more likely after what happened top Judy Gard and the AAPDB have as part of their code of conduct that they dont bump them off but rather desex and re home.

Dogs rescued from puppy factories are often very difficult to rehome. They have known nothing but a cage their entire life and struggle to cope with the outside world. Many of these dogs can not be rehabilitated as pets and will be euthanased.

that is true what you have typed extra and we all know this but that info i cut and pasted is designed for the general public.....if you tell them all that people are going to get confused.

what would you guys say under "what is the difference between a ANKC breeder and a puppy factory?"

I mean we can all say what we really feel and i do agree with the point that many of us dont want people coming to our homes sizing up our dogs then taking them away when we aren't home or telling someone unscrupulous, (my worry all the time) but how is that going to help the cause?

[oakway]

Toy dog

In no way does what you have copied and pasted in any way give me or any other breeders immunity from this bill what so ever.

If I have missed it please point out where it is.

Edited September 25, 2010 by oakway

[asal]

cut and pasted from oscar laws website:

What is the difference between a registered breeder and a puppy factory (and how will I know)?A registered breeder is registered with the Australian National Kennel Council and must meet certain requirements. A breeder will usually specialise in one breed and is also likely to be involved in showing that breed. Our studies show most are not only involved in one breed

A puppy factory will not be registered with the ANKC. Some breeders who breed hundreds of puppies each year are registered with the ANKC and you can be registered with the ANKC and breed dogs other than purebred registered dogs.The ANKC codes of conduct only cover what you can do with your ANKC registered dogs But anyone can be and is an ANKC registered breeder. In fact several of the members of the Australian Association of Pet Dog Breeders - a puppy farmer group are ANKC registered breeders. Many claim to be registered, but they are just a 'registered' business! The ANKC only registers 'pure breed' dog breeders .The ANKC only registers purebred dogs any one including any dog breeder can be an ANKC member. All designer dogs are cross breeds.

A breeder will be happy for you to visit them to meet the parents and the pups at their own premises, in fact most will insist.Many purebred dog breeders are not happy for people to visit their homes for a variety of reasons. Puppy factories will not. If puppy factories who meet the legal requirements of minimum standards of care will not let you see their breeding facilities - they know that you will be horrified.Not necessarily these days most dont want anyone visiting because they are worried about redneck animal rights.

A breeder will know about their breed, they will be happy to answer your questions and are very likely to have plenty of their own. If you are suspicious, go home and do some research.

What's wrong with cross breed dogs?Nothing! Cross breed dogs are just as likely to make a wonderful pet as a pure breed. But because puppy factory dogs are mass produced and kept in isolated conditions until purchase, they have a high likelihood of suffering from behavioural and health problems. Where are the studies to support this?

Why are there health problems with pups from puppy factories?Many breeds of dogs have conditions that they are prone to, such as hip dysplasia, chronic skin conditions, overshot jaws and heart murmurs. Good breeders test their breeding dogs for these conditions prior to mating. Puppy factories do not some puppy factories do test their parent stock and do know the pedigrees of the parents, in fact many of them are vets. and, as they have no contact with the puppies once they have left the factory, they have no idea what genetic defects they are continuing to breed into these puppies.Many registered purebred breeders dont have anything to do with their puppy buyers after the sale either.

Why are pet shop puppies more likely to have behaviour problems?It has been known by behaviourists for years that the most important time in a puppy's development is between 3 to 12 weeks and puppies isolated during this time (say in a glass box in a pet shop or cage at a factory) are much more likely develop behavioural issues than a well socialised dog. Where are the studies to back up assumptions that pet shop puppies are not handled or socialised.Whats the difference to being in a glass enclosure at a pet shop to being in a crate in a lounge room? Pet shops and commercial breeders are saying they do socialise their puppies.

In short - puppy factory puppies miss out on the two things that are known to help shape a good, stable temperament for later life; good breeding and many and varied positive life experiences before the age of seven weeks. As long as they're cute and fluffy, the factory farmer gets his money.

What happens to ex-breeding stock?Dogs should not be bred every heat cycle as it is bad for their bodies.Not true the science of dog breeding tells us exactly the opposite - its worse for a bitch to be stopped from breeding see my above posts on pyometra. Puppy factory bitches are bred every time they come into heat, until their uterus prolapses and falls out of their body.Not true prolapse isnt caused by having puppies every season - its caused by not having puppies every season and cysts which are in the uterus coming out or its caused by being in labour too long without help or puppies being too big. There is no evidence to prove puppy farm bitches get prolapses any more often than regsitered purebred bitches. Once the dog is no longer useful for breeding it is destroyed and replaced by one of her female pups.I know registered purebred breeders who do this and many now are more likely after what happened top Judy Gard and the AAPDB have as part of their code of conduct that they dont bump them off but rather desex and re home.

Dogs rescued from puppy factories are often very difficult to rehome. They have known nothing but a cage their entire life and struggle to cope with the outside world. Many of these dogs can not be rehabilitated as pets and will be euthanased.

that is true what you have typed extra and we all know this but that info i cut and pasted is designed for the general public.....if you tell them all that people are going to get confused.

what would you guys say under "what is the difference between a ANKC breeder and a puppy factory?"

I mean we can all say what we really feel and i do agree with the point that many of us dont want people coming to our homes sizing up our dogs then taking them away when we aren't home or telling someone unscrupulous, (my worry all the time) but how is that going to help the cause?

but leaving out the truth so you "dont confuse" the general public also means to mislead said general public. by omission.

joe n jane public will believe exactly whats written.

whats wrong with all the facts not what looks nice for "public" consumpion?

[Souff]

Toy Dog

By NOT telling the public the TRUE FACTS ...... you, and those who are supporting and pushing Oscars Law, are MISLEADING THE PUBLIC.

Steve has put the truth of the matter on here this morning.

Not pretty ... but it is the truth about the matter

Souff

[shortstep]

Short step

In no way does what you have copied and pasted in any way give me or any other breeders immunity from this bill what so ever.

If I have missed it please point out where it is.

Sorry I do not think I am the poster?

If it is me, what exactly are you talking about? :>)

[asal]

Toy Dog

By NOT telling the public the TRUE FACTS ...... you, and those who are supporting and pushing Oscars Law, are MISLEADING THE PUBLIC.

Steve has put the truth of the matter on here this morning.

Not pretty ... but it is the truth about the matter

Souff

another truth, is not all dogs LOVE anyone and everyone on sight. tibetan terriers for example are suspicious of stangers. sooo what does the vet who used Judy Gards rehomed one to send the rspca to raid her.... talked the new owner into letting her put it down because its not properly socialised?

the dog was a show dog, you cant successfully show a frighned dog?

why should the dog have to fawn over someone it only just met? no one told it . fawn on the vet as they have the power of life and death over you, a prefectly healthy pet died because it didnt know

only recently i was asked to help rehome a ex show dog. champ in fact.

first thing the owners son said, was no one would take her because she is so timid. she again is a breed that is aloof of strangers.

soo i ignored her and she came to me.

used the same words i figured her owners would use in the ring and nxt thing she is in my lap.

a friend came round after we arrived home. talked to her in the same vein and he too ended up with one excited doggie. it was sooo obvious she was thinking. hey THEY SPEAKA MY LANGUAGE.

THIS DOG would in all likely hood be put down as unsocialised if examined by that vet

[oakway]

Short step

In no way does what you have copied and pasted in any way give me or any other breeders immunity from this bill what so ever.

If I have missed it please point out where it is.

Sorry I do not think I am the poster?

If it is me, what exactly are you talking about? :>)

Sorry, I just typed the wrong name.

All corrected.

[Steve]

Toy Dogs said.

that is true what you have typed extra and we all know this but that info i cut and pasted is designed for the general public.....if you tell them all that people are going to get confused.

what would you guys say under "what is the difference between a ANKC breeder and a puppy factory?"

I mean we can all say what we really feel and i do agree with the point that many of us dont want people coming to our homes sizing up our dogs then taking them away when we aren't home or telling someone unscrupulous, (my worry all the time) but how is that going to help the cause?

O.K. I know its true and you say you know its true too. Do you think Oscar's Law knew? Do you think people who were rallying for new laws which will eventually wipe us out and leave commercial puppy farmers sitting pretty with more dogs not less suffering?

This stuff has been circulated world wide to hoodwink people - not just the public but government too - to a point where new people coming into purebred dogs believe it, How is this going to help the cause? The cause SHOULD be whats best for dogs not whats best to distribute crap so registered breeders get to feel superior.

Its propoganda distributed by the ANKC to better their cause and most of their members believe it too. Its destroyed the ability for us to become educated on real canine husbandry issues as canine Councils have bowed to pressure from animal rights and people who have no experience with breeding in order to gain superiority.

The only two differences you or anyone can be sure of between a registered breeder and any other breeder is that a registered breeder can register their puppies on a stud registry owned by ANKC and they can compete in shows which are held by affiliates of the ANKC. This crap of of we are doing it right we will be safe blah blah blah and pretending the laws wont affect us MORE than it will puppy farmers is the biggest scam of the millenium and we have fallen into it hook line and sinker.

Just as many registered breeders sell puppies to pet shops and export pet shops as puppy farmers,and anything else you can say about puppy farmers a registered breeder could be doing the same as or worse than any example you can give.

The poodle farmer in Queensland was a registered breeder, the one on RSPCA rescue from Newcastle area who had over 300 dogs was and still is a registered breeder.

They both had heaps of champs under their belt though.

When you chant wipe out rotten breeders its us they are going after as well as any other. Cross bred dogs arent likely to be debarked and at a dog show are the? Do you think some cross bred breeder is going to be the first arrested for breeding affected dogs recklessly?

[Jed]

Steve

The poodle farmer in Queensland was a registered breeder

Naw, she was chucked out of DogsQld years ago.

[Steve]

Steve

The poodle farmer in Queensland was a registered breeder

Naw, she was chucked out of DogsQld years ago.

O.K. Ill take your word for it - makes you wonder why she was screaming about bloodlines etc as much.

[Jed]

Very magnanimous of you.

If you don't believe me, why not check with DogsQld?. I have no idea why she was screaming about bloodlines, whether the dogs have registrations or not makes no difference to bloodlines.

DogsQld tends to ban people who break the rules. But they do need to know

Edited September 25, 2010 by Jed

[BJean]

THE SOLUTION – Oscar’s Law

•Abolish the mass production of dogs. Make factory farming of dogs illegal

•Ban the sale of animals from pet shops, online and in print media

•Encourage people to adopt animals from shelters, pounds and rescue organisations

•Work on increasing the re-homing rate in pounds and shelters and introduce the no-kill philosophy which has proven to work in USA. http://www.nokilladvocacycenter.org/

•Commence running a REAL campaign about true and responsible companion animal care. Ever see a pound advertise their animals ? Ever see a pound open for longer than an hour a day ? Pounds need to start competing with pet shops and then they can stop killing healthy animals.

THAT would be interesting.

wonder where mandatory desexing would fit.

The concept of a 'real campaign' is an interesting one huh

[toy dog]

Toy Dogs said.

that is true what you have typed extra and we all know this but that info i cut and pasted is designed for the general public.....if you tell them all that people are going to get confused.

what would you guys say under "what is the difference between a ANKC breeder and a puppy factory?"

I mean we can all say what we really feel and i do agree with the point that many of us dont want people coming to our homes sizing up our dogs then taking them away when we aren't home or telling someone unscrupulous, (my worry all the time) but how is that going to help the cause?

O.K. I know its true and you say you know its true too. Do you think Oscar's Law knew? Do you think people who were rallying for new laws which will eventually wipe us out and leave commercial puppy farmers sitting pretty with more dogs not less suffering?

This stuff has been circulated world wide to hoodwink people - not just the public but government too - to a point where new people coming into purebred dogs believe it, How is this going to help the cause? The cause SHOULD be whats best for dogs not whats best to distribute crap so registered breeders get to feel superior.

Its propoganda distributed by the ANKC to better their cause and most of their members believe it too. Its destroyed the ability for us to become educated on real canine husbandry issues as canine Councils have bowed to pressure from animal rights and people who have no experience with breeding in order to gain superiority.

The only two differences you or anyone can be sure of between a registered breeder and any other breeder is that a registered breeder can register their puppies on a stud registry owned by ANKC and they can compete in shows which are held by affiliates of the ANKC. This crap of of we are doing it right we will be safe blah blah blah and pretending the laws wont affect us MORE than it will puppy farmers is the biggest scam of the millenium and we have fallen into it hook line and sinker.

Just as many registered breeders sell puppies to pet shops and export pet shops as puppy farmers,and anything else you can say about puppy farmers a registered breeder could be doing the same as or worse than any example you can give.

The poodle farmer in Queensland was a registered breeder, the one on RSPCA rescue from Newcastle area who had over 300 dogs was and still is a registered breeder.

They both had heaps of champs under their belt though.

When you chant wipe out rotten breeders its us they are going after as well as any other. Cross bred dogs arent likely to be debarked and at a dog show are the? Do you think some cross bred breeder is going to be the first arrested for breeding affected dogs recklessly?

ok up until this post i was wondering what your angle was. i get it now.

i still think someone is going to have to shoot me again i am sorry to say, put me out of misery. this is really doing my head in good.

yes they have neglected to mention about mandatory desexing in oscar's law.....

souff, you are saying me and oscar law people like as though i am part of that group, i am not, i am not part of any group, i just support closing of farms and banning sales in petshops, all the other stuff, sounds like hidden agendas, bills put forward by RSPCA and oscar law people may or may not be partnered with them don't know, i hope not.......it all sounds deeply political to me and really the reason why i say its doing my head in is because i despise politics......kennel clubs that get political absolutely despise it, it can get like that at work places too i am of the mind that i don't need it, don't want to play in it,

Dogsvic are having a forum on puppy farmers in october so it will be interesting to go along and just see what will be said, they are asking what is the best way to tackle this issue, they are asking for input from their members. like DogsQLD are obviously doing, they do name and shame breeders who don't follow the code of ethics they do publish names in the gazette every month i see, and also fine the breeders in some cases or suspend their membership just depends, it seems to be different for each member. i.e. if a breeder breeds a bitch before 12 mths of age or has more litters than they are supposed to according to the rules. also i heard down the line that breeders who have bred alot of litters are being questioned why they are having so many litters. breeders that i've known for many many years. again, it is within the toy group i am speaking about not any other group. i have no idea what is going on with other groups and other breeders of these other groups.

dogsvic did say in one monthly gazette that they do have a dialogue with government departments so maybe RSPCA are pushing for their stuff and dogsvic are counteracting it.

so dogsvic are trying to address this situation of farmers within our ranks i see. but its a very hard issue to address i feel.....who is a farmer who isn't.....who's ethical and who isn't? how do you categorise a farmer thats reg with the ANKC? RSPCA are trying to address puppy farms and also Backyard breeders in the one hit but the problem i have with their bill and what i have read is they are trying to get through to govt by grouping reg breeders in with backyarders and farms.

i think RSPCA should just concentrate on backyarders and farms and let the state controlling bodies deal with their own members RSPCA from what i have read so far have no idea about pedigree dogs but they think they know because UK put out a negative doco on them.

so how would you guys address the issue of farmers within our ranks, what is the best way to deal with them?

another truth, is not all dogs LOVE anyone and everyone on sight. tibetan terriers for example are suspicious of stangers. sooo what does the vet who used Judy Gards rehomed one to send the rspca to raid her.... talked the new owner into letting her put it down because its not properly socialised?

well you would understand this one asal, with our breed, they have a molera some chis? well we all got into discussion at a show one day and apparently one breeder sold a puppy with a molera, young puppy to a person who took it to a vet, and you know what the stupid vet said, put it down dogs should not have a hole in their head, so the poor pup was put down!

so you can get idiot vets. i've had timid chihuahuas.....just the genes its nothing we've done to the animal all our dogs get treated the same, all end up with different personalities just like humans. but inexperienced people might see it as the dogs been hit or abused. think its important to recommend your own vets for new owners to go to rather than just randomly picking a vet that might turn out to be an idiot.

[Steve]

Toy Dogs said.

that is true what you have typed extra and we all know this but that info i cut and pasted is designed for the general public.....if you tell them all that people are going to get confused.

what would you guys say under "what is the difference between a ANKC breeder and a puppy factory?"

I mean we can all say what we really feel and i do agree with the point that many of us dont want people coming to our homes sizing up our dogs then taking them away when we aren't home or telling someone unscrupulous, (my worry all the time) but how is that going to help the cause?

O.K. I know its true and you say you know its true too. Do you think Oscar's Law knew? Do you think people who were rallying for new laws which will eventually wipe us out and leave commercial puppy farmers sitting pretty with more dogs not less suffering?

This stuff has been circulated world wide to hoodwink people - not just the public but government too - to a point where new people coming into purebred dogs believe it, How is this going to help the cause? The cause SHOULD be whats best for dogs not whats best to distribute crap so registered breeders get to feel superior.

Its propoganda distributed by the ANKC to better their cause and most of their members believe it too. Its destroyed the ability for us to become educated on real canine husbandry issues as canine Councils have bowed to pressure from animal rights and people who have no experience with breeding in order to gain superiority.

The only two differences you or anyone can be sure of between a registered breeder and any other breeder is that a registered breeder can register their puppies on a stud registry owned by ANKC and they can compete in shows which are held by affiliates of the ANKC. This crap of of we are doing it right we will be safe blah blah blah and pretending the laws wont affect us MORE than it will puppy farmers is the biggest scam of the millenium and we have fallen into it hook line and sinker.

Just as many registered breeders sell puppies to pet shops and export pet shops as puppy farmers,and anything else you can say about puppy farmers a registered breeder could be doing the same as or worse than any example you can give.

The poodle farmer in Queensland was a registered breeder, the one on RSPCA rescue from Newcastle area who had over 300 dogs was and still is a registered breeder.

They both had heaps of champs under their belt though.

When you chant wipe out rotten breeders its us they are going after as well as any other. Cross bred dogs arent likely to be debarked and at a dog show are the? Do you think some cross bred breeder is going to be the first arrested for breeding affected dogs recklessly?

ok up until this post i was wondering what your angle was. i get it now.

i still think someone is going to have to shoot me again i am sorry to say, put me out of misery. this is really doing my head in good.

yes they have neglected to mention about mandatory desexing in oscar's law.....

souff, you are saying me and oscar law people like as though i am part of that group, i am not, i am not part of any group, i just support closing of farms and banning sales in petshops, all the other stuff, sounds like hidden agendas, bills put forward by RSPCA and oscar law people may or may not be partnered with them don't know, i hope not.......it all sounds deeply political to me and really the reason why i say its doing my head in is because i despise politics......kennel clubs that get political absolutely despise it, it can get like that at work places too i am of the mind that i don't need it, don't want to play in it,

Dogsvic are having a forum on puppy farmers in october so it will be interesting to go along and just see what will be said, they are asking what is the best way to tackle this issue, they are asking for input from their members. like DogsQLD are obviously doing, they do name and shame breeders who don't follow the code of ethics they do publish names in the gazette every month i see, and also fine the breeders in some cases or suspend their membership just depends, it seems to be different for each member. i.e. if a breeder breeds a bitch before 12 mths of age or has more litters than they are supposed to according to the rules. also i heard down the line that breeders who have bred alot of litters are being questioned why they are having so many litters. breeders that i've known for many many years. again, it is within the toy group i am speaking about not any other group. i have no idea what is going on with other groups and other breeders of these other groups.

dogsvic did say in one monthly gazette that they do have a dialogue with government departments so maybe RSPCA are pushing for their stuff and dogsvic are counteracting it.

so dogsvic are trying to address this situation of farmers within our ranks i see. but its a very hard issue to address i feel.....who is a farmer who isn't.....who's ethical and who isn't? how do you categorise a farmer thats reg with the ANKC? RSPCA are trying to address puppy farms and also Backyard breeders in the one hit but the problem i have with their bill and what i have read is they are trying to get through to govt by grouping reg breeders in with backyarders and farms.

i think RSPCA should just concentrate on backyarders and farms and let the state controlling bodies deal with their own members RSPCA from what i have read so far have no idea about pedigree dogs but they think they know because UK put out a negative doco on them.

so how would you guys address the issue of farmers within our ranks, what is the best way to deal with them?

another truth, is not all dogs LOVE anyone and everyone on sight. tibetan terriers for example are suspicious of stangers. sooo what does the vet who used Judy Gards rehomed one to send the rspca to raid her.... talked the new owner into letting her put it down because its not properly socialised?

well you would understand this one asal, with our breed, they have a molera some chis? well we all got into discussion at a show one day and apparently one breeder sold a puppy with a molera, young puppy to a person who took it to a vet, and you know what the stupid vet said, put it down dogs should not have a hole in their head, so the poor pup was put down!

so you can get idiot vets. i've had timid chihuahuas.....just the genes its nothing we've done to the animal all our dogs get treated the same, all end up with different personalities just like humans. but inexperienced people might see it as the dogs been hit or abused. think its important to recommend your own vets for new owners to go to rather than just randomly picking a vet that might turn out to be an idiot.

The issue has already been dealt with at that level. Everyone who will be involved in making laws already knows how they will do it and what THEIR definition of a puppy farmer is.What your definition or any one else's definition isnt counted except that because most think its someone who breeds lots of dogs commercially we rally for laws which will stop people breeding dogs on farms in high numbers and we snuggle up with animal lib to do that. Do you really think animal lib and RSPCA dont know this ? The defininition of a puppy farmer is someone who breeds puppies in substandard conditions. Substandard is defined by anyone who is breeding dogs who isnt doing so according to mandatory codes for breeeding establishments [via the DPI] and anyone who isnt according to planning laws applicable in your shire.

The fact is that every person in this country who breeds dogs is already under Prevention of Cruelty to Animals,state companion animals laws, mandatory codes for breeding establishments,and council planning laws. This has nothing what ever to do with whether they are breeding purebred or cross bred dogs, whether they are breeding one or 1000 dogs. So when they bring in laws which affect commercial puppy farmers those laws will affect everyone who owns a fertile bitch.

So far in Victoria breeders have a bit of a blank bit there because state companion animals laws say if you own less than 5 fertile bitches you dont have to worry about laws which tell you what floors you have to have, where you put your poo, how often you clean up, how your dogs can sleep.It also says you dont need a government permit to run a domestic animal business if you are ANKC and have less than 10 fertile bitches but more than 5 and the planning laws cut in anyway for you to be able to breed dogs on your premises. Any one can be an ANKC member and being an ANKC member doesnt stop you breeding non registered dogs as long as you arent doing that with registered dogs.

In NSW its anyone who ever breeds a litter.In Queensland they have a pilot program running on the gold coast which they think is the answer and RSPCA want bought in Australia wide and it is anyone who owns an entire dog they come under the laws. $379 for a licence and an inspection of your home before you get approval to keep an entire dog.

In Victoria you break the law if you dont vaccinate your dogs every year , in NSW you break the law if you dont get a note from your vet to get you out of vaccinating every year.

In NSW they have laws and guidelines - when I asked them when the guidelines cut in - answer - when there is a complaint. These guidelines tell me I have to feed my puppies as Im weaning them in individual bowls, they tell me I cant keep my cats water bowl in the same room as the cats feed bowl!

100% of what is going on here is a desire for the RSPCA to have more police powers Australia wide. That is they can come in seize your dogs,and any paperwork you may have which might prove your case,say anything they want about you and your dogs without you having the right to a second opinion, kill your dogs and destroy the evidence, charge you a massive bond to be able to retain ownership while its coming to court and leave you with no where to go to have them answer to anything you might say in your defence.

There are many many things working against purebred breeders including the one that's been hovering to stop us breeding some of our breeds and being answerable to another agency which will over rule the ANKC and all other groups on welfare issues as has been recommended in the Bateman report and snuggling up to animal liberation and calling for the RSPCA to have more power to police more laws without adequate answerability is folly. Whats more I promise you that any minute private rescue will be under this gun too.

[asal]

another truth, is not all dogs LOVE anyone and everyone on sight. tibetan terriers for example are suspicious of stangers. sooo what does the vet who used Judy Gards rehomed one to send the rspca to raid her.... talked the new owner into letting her put it down because its not properly socialised?

well you would understand this one asal, with our breed, they have a molera some chis? well we all got into discussion at a show one day and apparently one breeder sold a puppy with a molera, young puppy to a person who took it to a vet, and you know what the stupid vet said, put it down dogs should not have a hole in their head, so the poor pup was put down!

so you can get idiot vets. i've had timid chihuahuas.....just the genes its nothing we've done to the animal all our dogs get treated the same, all end up with different personalities just like humans. but inexperienced people might see it as the dogs been hit or abused. think its important to recommend your own vets for new owners to go to rather than just randomly picking a vet that might turn out to be an idiot.

the first chi to come into our family, took it to the vet for its vaccination and yes was told the same thing. n the vet? only one of the lectureres that teach the young vets. like what the? if even the teachers cant do their homework what hope for the next generation of vets and such experts sit on boards and "advise" governments.

remember the mess stringy came home in. the vet who "treated" him was Mark Lowry, now the head of the nsw vet association?????

BvSc dont stand for saint or saviour, much as many seem to think so

:rofl:

come to think of it, once used a vet who was charged and pleaded guilty to asulting a work experience student.

so saint... nope.

never forget his reply when i asked him how could u do that?

his reply "God tempted me and i was too weak to resist"

my astonished reply " considering you would be the one who has gelded how my my my colts.soo are you telling me you have less self control than my stallions? you would be the onegelding them if they didnt back, when i told them?

his reply was "I never thought of it that way"

like derrrrrr

likewise polies are being asked to draft legislation with absolutly no idea of how it can be manipulated to do far more than they envisioned when it was passed.

pity it wasnt one of them instead of Judy Guard caught up into the net they fashioned

Edited September 25, 2010 by asal

[asal]

I bought my second pedigree pup that decided me to become a member of the cc.

that was 1978...... when i showed my darling....get told "ho that breeder is a puppy farmer" and even then ways were being decided how to put the disgusting out of business.

that lady did breed hundreds a year, that lady understood genetics, that lady selected for self whelping lines, i saw hundreds of pups over the many years i knew her and i saw a far higher percentage of sound pups than ive ever seen in the homes of her detractors.

be careful of what you wish for.

in the race to destroy some YOU WILL DISTROY ALL.

and you and your breeds will be the loosers

these were the years when the term backyarder began to be bandied. even then a fool like i. thought "hey, everyone has a back yard? eliminate backyarders and u eliminate yourself?????"

well the wheel has been turned and sadly i see what my stupid brain could see the precious couldnt.

wear it in good health.

sadly i do not see solutions, you have blindly pushed to destroy without realising and refusing to realise you too will be in the sights.

even worse pushed for without equally pushing for any accountabality or avenue for appeal, its a weird mindset that a murderer has more rights than any animal owner? or the animal being used to persecute its owner, n no that not a spelling mistake. judys darling died, so many more will. its a bit like watching a sci fi, but in this case its real.

n remember REMEMBER Judy is facing charges that amount to 84 years jail, n she had already pleaded guilty.

n unlike the murderer she will be tried by a magistrate, not a jury of her peers, considering she is facing what amounts to a life sentence for what? showing her dogs, why not?

why isnt she being judged by a jury?

Edited September 25, 2010 by asal

[asal]

there have been so many stories and movies made on the subject of be careful for what u wish for.

the genie always gets it wrong.

pity no one realised or took heed, this applies to the real as well as the imaginary world

Edited September 25, 2010 by asal

[toy dog]

Toy Dogs said.

that is true what you have typed extra and we all know this but that info i cut and pasted is designed for the general public.....if you tell them all that people are going to get confused.

what would you guys say under "what is the difference between a ANKC breeder and a puppy factory?"

I mean we can all say what we really feel and i do agree with the point that many of us dont want people coming to our homes sizing up our dogs then taking them away when we aren't home or telling someone unscrupulous, (my worry all the time) but how is that going to help the cause?

O.K. I know its true and you say you know its true too. Do you think Oscar's Law knew? Do you think people who were rallying for new laws which will eventually wipe us out and leave commercial puppy farmers sitting pretty with more dogs not less suffering?

This stuff has been circulated world wide to hoodwink people - not just the public but government too - to a point where new people coming into purebred dogs believe it, How is this going to help the cause? The cause SHOULD be whats best for dogs not whats best to distribute crap so registered breeders get to feel superior.

Its propoganda distributed by the ANKC to better their cause and most of their members believe it too. Its destroyed the ability for us to become educated on real canine husbandry issues as canine Councils have bowed to pressure from animal rights and people who have no experience with breeding in order to gain superiority.

The only two differences you or anyone can be sure of between a registered breeder and any other breeder is that a registered breeder can register their puppies on a stud registry owned by ANKC and they can compete in shows which are held by affiliates of the ANKC. This crap of of we are doing it right we will be safe blah blah blah and pretending the laws wont affect us MORE than it will puppy farmers is the biggest scam of the millenium and we have fallen into it hook line and sinker.

Just as many registered breeders sell puppies to pet shops and export pet shops as puppy farmers,and anything else you can say about puppy farmers a registered breeder could be doing the same as or worse than any example you can give.

The poodle farmer in Queensland was a registered breeder, the one on RSPCA rescue from Newcastle area who had over 300 dogs was and still is a registered breeder.

They both had heaps of champs under their belt though.

When you chant wipe out rotten breeders its us they are going after as well as any other. Cross bred dogs arent likely to be debarked and at a dog show are the? Do you think some cross bred breeder is going to be the first arrested for breeding affected dogs recklessly?

ok up until this post i was wondering what your angle was. i get it now.

i still think someone is going to have to shoot me again i am sorry to say, put me out of misery. this is really doing my head in good.

yes they have neglected to mention about mandatory desexing in oscar's law.....

souff, you are saying me and oscar law people like as though i am part of that group, i am not, i am not part of any group, i just support closing of farms and banning sales in petshops, all the other stuff, sounds like hidden agendas, bills put forward by RSPCA and oscar law people may or may not be partnered with them don't know, i hope not.......it all sounds deeply political to me and really the reason why i say its doing my head in is because i despise politics......kennel clubs that get political absolutely despise it, it can get like that at work places too i am of the mind that i don't need it, don't want to play in it,

Dogsvic are having a forum on puppy farmers in october so it will be interesting to go along and just see what will be said, they are asking what is the best way to tackle this issue, they are asking for input from their members. like DogsQLD are obviously doing, they do name and shame breeders who don't follow the code of ethics they do publish names in the gazette every month i see, and also fine the breeders in some cases or suspend their membership just depends, it seems to be different for each member. i.e. if a breeder breeds a bitch before 12 mths of age or has more litters than they are supposed to according to the rules. also i heard down the line that breeders who have bred alot of litters are being questioned why they are having so many litters. breeders that i've known for many many years. again, it is within the toy group i am speaking about not any other group. i have no idea what is going on with other groups and other breeders of these other groups.

dogsvic did say in one monthly gazette that they do have a dialogue with government departments so maybe RSPCA are pushing for their stuff and dogsvic are counteracting it.

so dogsvic are trying to address this situation of farmers within our ranks i see. but its a very hard issue to address i feel.....who is a farmer who isn't.....who's ethical and who isn't? how do you categorise a farmer thats reg with the ANKC? RSPCA are trying to address puppy farms and also Backyard breeders in the one hit but the problem i have with their bill and what i have read is they are trying to get through to govt by grouping reg breeders in with backyarders and farms.

i think RSPCA should just concentrate on backyarders and farms and let the state controlling bodies deal with their own members RSPCA from what i have read so far have no idea about pedigree dogs but they think they know because UK put out a negative doco on them.

so how would you guys address the issue of farmers within our ranks, what is the best way to deal with them?

another truth, is not all dogs LOVE anyone and everyone on sight. tibetan terriers for example are suspicious of stangers. sooo what does the vet who used Judy Gards rehomed one to send the rspca to raid her.... talked the new owner into letting her put it down because its not properly socialised?

well you would understand this one asal, with our breed, they have a molera some chis? well we all got into discussion at a show one day and apparently one breeder sold a puppy with a molera, young puppy to a person who took it to a vet, and you know what the stupid vet said, put it down dogs should not have a hole in their head, so the poor pup was put down!

so you can get idiot vets. i've had timid chihuahuas.....just the genes its nothing we've done to the animal all our dogs get treated the same, all end up with different personalities just like humans. but inexperienced people might see it as the dogs been hit or abused. think its important to recommend your own vets for new owners to go to rather than just randomly picking a vet that might turn out to be an idiot.

The issue has already been dealt with at that level. Everyone who will be involved in making laws already knows how they will do it and what THEIR definition of a puppy farmer is.What your definition or any one else's definition isnt counted except that because most think its someone who breeds lots of dogs commercially we rally for laws which will stop people breeding dogs on farms in high numbers and we snuggle up with animal lib to do that. Do you really think animal lib and RSPCA dont know this ? The defininition of a puppy farmer is someone who breeds puppies in substandard conditions. Substandard is defined by anyone who is breeding dogs who isnt doing so according to mandatory codes for breeeding establishments [via the DPI] and anyone who isnt according to planning laws applicable in your shire.

The fact is that every person in this country who breeds dogs is already under Prevention of Cruelty to Animals,state companion animals laws, mandatory codes for breeding establishments,and council planning laws. This has nothing what ever to do with whether they are breeding purebred or cross bred dogs, whether they are breeding one or 1000 dogs. So when they bring in laws which affect commercial puppy farmers those laws will affect everyone who owns a fertile bitch.

So far in Victoria breeders have a bit of a blank bit there because state companion animals laws say if you own less than 5 fertile bitches you dont have to worry about laws which tell you what floors you have to have, where you put your poo, how often you clean up, how your dogs can sleep.It also says you dont need a government permit to run a domestic animal business if you are ANKC and have less than 10 fertile bitches but more than 5 and the planning laws cut in anyway for you to be able to breed dogs on your premises. Any one can be an ANKC member and being an ANKC member doesnt stop you breeding non registered dogs as long as you arent doing that with registered dogs.

In NSW its anyone who ever breeds a litter.In Queensland they have a pilot program running on the gold coast which they think is the answer and RSPCA want bought in Australia wide and it is anyone who owns an entire dog they come under the laws. $379 for a licence and an inspection of your home before you get approval to keep an entire dog.

In Victoria you break the law if you dont vaccinate your dogs every year , in NSW you break the law if you dont get a note from your vet to get you out of vaccinating every year.

In NSW they have laws and guidelines - when I asked them when the guidelines cut in - answer - when there is a complaint. These guidelines tell me I have to feed my puppies as Im weaning them in individual bowls, they tell me I cant keep my cats water bowl in the same room as the cats feed bowl!

100% of what is going on here is a desire for the RSPCA to have more police powers Australia wide. That is they can come in seize your dogs,and any paperwork you may have which might prove your case,say anything they want about you and your dogs without you having the right to a second opinion, kill your dogs and destroy the evidence, charge you a massive bond to be able to retain ownership while its coming to court and leave you with no where to go to have them answer to anything you might say in your defence.

There are many many things working against purebred breeders including the one that's been hovering to stop us breeding some of our breeds and being answerable to another agency which will over rule the ANKC and all other groups on welfare issues as has been recommended in the Bateman report and snuggling up to animal liberation and calling for the RSPCA to have more power to police more laws without adequate answerability is folly. Whats more I promise you that any minute private rescue will be under this gun too.

i dont' know what to say to that except :D why don't they bring in hitler.....they might as well. getting to be a communist country with all the laws, bans and what you can have and what you can't. people making laws that benefit themselves it sounds like ;) without getting background knowledge....just point fingers.

many years ago in the 80's when i was still at school there was a paper going around, fascism will come to Australia watch out. think it is already here! we all scoffed at that.

[asal]

I bought my second pedigree pup that decided me to become a member of the cc.

that was 1978...... when i showed my darling....get told "ho that breeder is a puppy farmer" and even then ways were being decided how to put the disgusting out of business.

that lady did breed hundreds a year, that lady understood genetics, that lady selected for self whelping lines, i saw hundreds of pups over the many years i knew her and i saw a far higher percentage of sound pups than ive ever seen in the homes of her detractors.

be careful of what you wish for.

in the race to destroy some YOU WILL DISTROY ALL.

and you and your breeds will be the loosers

these were the years when the term backyarder began to be bandied. even then a fool like i. thought "hey, everyone has a back yard? eliminate backyarders and u eliminate yourself?????"

well the wheel has been turned and sadly i see what my stupid brain could see the precious couldnt.

wear it in good health.

sadly i do not see solutions, you have blindly pushed to destroy without realising and refusing to realise you too will be in the sights.

even worse pushed for without equally pushing for any accountabality or avenue for appeal, its a weird mindset that a murderer has more rights than any animal owner? or the animal being used to persecute its owner, n no that not a spelling mistake. judys darling died, so many more will. its a bit like watching a sci fi, but in this case its real.

n remember REMEMBER Judy is facing charges that amount to 84 years jail, n she had already pleaded guilty.

n unlike the murderer she will be tried by a magistrate, not a jury of her peers, considering she is facing what amounts to a life sentence for what? showing her dogs, why not?

why isnt she being judged by a jury?

n are magistrates unbiased?

i was present when Marion Alcorn was sentenced. the judges exact words "its a crime not to worm your horses" the exact same words on their adds being aired on prime time tv at the time.

at the mercy of the decision of one man alone

heaven help judy.