Puppy Farm Awareness Rally

[Souff]

What is the case?

The case is the supposed lack of facilities. The facilities were found for both of the abovementioned cases. Large numbers of dogs were siezed in both cases.

This is the organisation which has to find ways to cope with such situations. Short of bringing in the army, nobody else is going to have the facilities to do the job for them.

Souff

[shortstep]

ok. so if we ONLY ban pet shops from selling live animals then HOW is that supposed to stop all those ads on the trading post and petlink? because i think anyone who knows more than a little on this subject is keenly aware that much of puppy farms sales never see a shopfront.

i'm not sure that banning pet shop sales is the way to go, but in combination with other legislation then it might be effective.

If you are talking about my post on Finnland, I think you missed the message.

1. ban pet shop sales.

2. elevate and promote ANKC breeders as the best place to go to buy a pup.

Not legislate, no where does she talk about extensive legislation. She talks about creating a different value system, you can not legislate a change of values .

[Jed]

Mackiemad, pf is a business. Take away 70% of the market, lots of the expenses are still there, but the profits are gone. Even if you advertise, it's hard work selling a lot of dogs personally. Take my word for it - it's a lot of work selling one litter never mind a couple of hundred

PF rely on sales to pet shops. The one I mentioned earlier with 300 dogs sells 100% of pups through pet shops, particularly the puppy shops in Bris. 2 hours drive out of Bris, how many of the pet buying public would drive up there on weeikends? A lot of these people are grubs with no people skills and the public wouldn't buy from them.

It wont totally solve the problem, but it will make a big difference and if the problem was smaller there are other things which could be done.

PF phone up pet shops to book pups in. The one which was prosecuted by the RSPCA sold in Briisbane, through both puppy shops all points north to Noosa. Also sold in parks

RSPCA could prosecute a lot more ..... maybe it is the problem of what to do with seized dogs which stops them, but they don't seem to raid these joints.

The most recent cop was a joint effort by RSPCA and biosecurity with biosecurity footing the care bills.

[Are You Serious Jo]

in VICTORIA, which is where we are talking about, we cannot go in and sieze an animal unless the animal is in immediate danger. we must give warnings and try to educate and owner first.

Really? Do you work for them? I can tell the name of one poor woman in Vic who had her dogs seized and they were in no immediate danger and she wasn't given any warnings. You might need to check you facts again.

[Steve]

ok. so if we ONLY ban pet shops from selling live animals then HOW is that supposed to stop all those ads on the trading post and petlink? because i think anyone who knows more than a little on this subject is keenly aware that much of puppy farms sales never see a shopfront.

i'm not sure that banning pet shop sales is the way to go, but in combination with other legislation then it might be effective.

and the RSPCA operates under DIFFERENT legislation is different states. they are also run by different people in different states. they have no connection to each other, only the rspca australia, and all they do is ensure that there is sufficient funds management (ie, one state isnt grovelling poor and the others are doing ok, they can shift the funds to where they're needed) and that their general aims are being met and perpetuated, such as education, aide and rehab. NOT all states have kill sheleters either, that depends on state law AND often the law is different for the rspca than other rescue orgs.

in VICTORIA, which is where we are talking about, we cannot go in and sieze an animal unless the animal is in immediate danger. we must give warnings and try to educate and owner first. often we try and get them to sign an animal over if we think we will not be able to sieze or educate the owners suffeicently. we only act on tip offs that have WITNESSED the act of cruelty or negligence and they must give their name so it can be verified and we can contact them for a witness statement if necessary.

jed, in victoria there has been a media campiagn for this in the past few months. we have had ads (when is say ads, i mean poster type things) in the paper, ads on the sides of buses, ads on public transport shelter. there have been newspaper articles written because fo this campaign, one was linked in this thread, from july this year, in the age. they didn't have the money to keep it up, so it has weaned off now.

and as for people saying that they haven't been pointing fingers, well, all i can say is that comments such as this:

It stinks to high heaven off bullshit excuses to me. The RSPCA have the power, they use it when it suits them and rakes in the $$$

from ready set go

feels like finger pointing to me. i have stated before that i am aligned with the rspca vic. i have actually been pretty impartial, but i don't believe that just because i work for the rspca (not that they can afford to or do pay me much) it doesn't mean that i am full of bullshit, nor does it mean that i, or the people i work with, are out to get registered breeders. obviously you have this view, and i don't believe it. so they got one woman (and i have said that i don't know the deatils of the case, so please don't jump down my throat, i'm not saying who was right or wrong, i've honestly no idea) and you all think that everyone who works there and that the entire organisation is scum? and animal lib, you decide they hate you and you refuse to work with them? well how will anythign be achieved if there isn't discussion from all sides. i keep saying this and i keep getting replies saying that you guys wouldn't be in the same room and discuss anythign with animal lib, well then how is anythign to be done? how can you ensure that your views are heard as well as theirs?

*sigh* i'm tired, but i'll say one last thing. steve said this earlier:

Well rather than being disapointed because you - someone who doesnt breed thinks they should have been there perhaps you could try to get educated and see why they werent there.

in response to my not being a breeder. well i'm not a breeder because i have no interest in owning an undesexed dog (too much hassle for me as i only want pets) and because i'm simply not invested enough with one breed to commit to that responsibility. i think i'm actually pretty educated thank you steve, and i think that post is beneath you. do i know everything? hell no. do i believe i do? hell no. i said that no one wants to get into bed with animal lib because we don't agree with philosophy. BUT i said that because we (people concerned with puppy farms) need their money, power, connections and the sheer body mass they provide to something like a rally, then it was worth trying to work with them. if the animal industry cannot agree and work together then any legislation, if it ever happens, will be a crappy compromise. SOMETIMES it is worth getting into bed with the devil in order to make the end product neither angelic nor devillish.

i know why they weren't there steve. they were so damn scared that they were going to get vilified by the public animal lib and the rspca (not saying this is without cause). they were so concerned that because organisations like animal lib are involved it will all get turned around so that they no longer have rights as people or breeders should this legislation go ahead. they were worried that should this legislation go ahead then all breeding would be impossible and the puppy farms that survive and whoops litters will be all the dogs we have left. all i am saying is, how on earth can you prevent that from happening, being vilified by the public and ending up with sub-par legislation unless you get out there and invest yourself in the process.

saying you don't agree from afar is one thing. getting involved, saying you don't agree with aspects and trying to ensure that your members and representatives get a 'fair go' is another. you cannot shape any legislation unless you are INVOLVED in the process.

I cant speak for the ankc but Id be very surprised if the reason they didnt attend was any where near the reasons you have given. Its certainly not why I didnt attend.

I didnt attend because I dont support what is being pushed and attending would have looked like I did support it. I get that we are all on the same page and we all want whats best for the dogs I just think this is going off half cocked. You dont have to attend an animal rights dominated rally to be involved in the process.

[TotemSpirit]

It has probably been said elsewhere,

I think ban pet shops from selling pups & kittens

& then have a database of all the rescue dogs/cats listed at pet shops instead

& also a list of all reputable breeders available there as well.

Just my 2 cents worth :rolleyes:

[Jed]

Guardienne

The RSPCA is powerless to prosecute irresponsible breeders unless they are committing an offence under animal welfare legislation in the state they are operating in. Sadly, this means the situation has to be very bad before we can intervene.

Srsly??

The managed to seize Rozzie's dogs. After the dogs languished in the pound for months and RSPCA killed a few, Rozzie was prosecuted because a rescue dog she had had for a couple of days had worms. Powerless to prosecute?

They managed to shoot Ruth Downey's cattle, even though there was feed on the property, and the cattle were actually in good condition. According to the videos.

The RSPCA seems quite able to prosecute Judy Gard for debarking. I note that her dogs won quite a lot at Melb Royal. Not quite the same as the dogs on the puppy farms, eh?

Sorry, when people write as above, and there is lots of evidence to debunk it, people do not believe it.

Ban dogs in pet shops, encourage the RSPCA to enforce existing laws,

The dogs in PF we see photos of are seriously abused. There is plenty of legislation in Vic now for the RSPCA to proscute, but that legislation applies only to ANKC breeders, apparently.

[Steve]

The MDBA would like to see a situation where no live animals were sold in pet shops.

But - take note. Is there any sign at all that this is going to happen? I can see pollies telling us there will be more laws and regulations against puppy farmers,

I can not see any taking up the cause to stop the sale of live animals in pet shops. PIAA,ANKC,DOGS NSW and the AVA have all shown they are against moves to ban the sales of animals in pet shops and both labour and liberal made statements about restriction of trade etc in the Clover Moore bill sittings and in private.

The arguments used against these sales being prohibited are still there and there has been no new research or science based studies or figures to prove that what people who support sales of pets in pet shops are not right.

I think Jed is right and that lots of puppies bred in large scale commercial breeding establishments are sold in pet shops -therefore it seems logical to take away the method they sell their puppies,make it more difficult for them to sell them and they will therefore stop breeding as many.

But - commercial breeding facilities are legitimate businesses and while some of us find it distasteful to breed dogs the way they do for the reasons they do but they comply with the council and state laws and mandatory codes and even though some of us think that this is what new laws will stop that is not true. The definition they use when considering new laws and consequences and policies have nothing to do with whether or not someone is breeding dogs to sell in pet shops or breeding huge numbers of puppies each year. Large scale commercial breeders will still breed commercially and in large numbers ,they will still sell their puppies to pet shops.Because - thats not what people who are drafting laws and looking at solutions who are in a position to do that are using as their definition of puppy farming.

Again I say right now in Australia there is nothing which is telling me that stopping sales of puppies in pet shops is going to happen and if that is ever going to happen it is going to require a different plan of attack. If we could all work together to work on a new plan then I believe in a year or two we could actually see real progress with irrefutable evidence to seriously stopping sales of live animals in pet shops.Right now I believe that those calling for the sales of pets in pet shops to be banned have gone off half cocked with nothing to fight with yet and its not going to happen. In fact I think the longer it continues the way it is going the more they are seen as rednecks and animal rights militants.

Our solution to stopping the sales of puppies in pet shops is to gather statistics, and facts and real science and present a logical reasonable case as well as rallies,petitions etc when we have the ammunition and the ability to win the war. It is also going to take a compaign to educate the public that this is not the best way to purchase a pup and enable them to find alternative places to purchase their new family members when they decide they would like one. Right now every argument you present can be and is easily refuted. and Jo public dont have a clue about where they can go to buy a puppy without having to dive through rings of fire to get one.

There's more but Im running - I will be back later.

Edited September 22, 2010 by Steve

[mortonplace]

ok. so if we ONLY ban pet shops from selling live animals then HOW is that supposed to stop all those ads on the trading post and petlink? because i think anyone who knows more than a little on this subject is keenly aware that much of puppy farms sales never see a shopfront.

i'm not sure that banning pet shop sales is the way to go, but in combination with other legislation then it might be effective.

If you are talking about my post on Finnland, I think you missed the message.

1. ban pet shop sales.

2. elevate and promote ANKC breeders as the best place to go to buy a pup.

Not legislate, no where does she talk about extensive legislation. She talks about creating a different value system, you can not legislate a change of values .

l still belive that stopping live pets sold in petshops is a huge start....After all its the inpulsive buy that sells most pups .in petshops..isnt it??

The trading post takes adds via emails only now in vic so ive been told??

So the desexing law before council reg should be put into place that will eventually kill the breedin g of x breed and unreg pups.

And petlink could also be regulated.With all the above being done petlink wouldnt be used to sell pups after time

Edited September 22, 2010 by mortonplace

[Steve]

IN VICTORIA The RSPCA have limited power to do anything to enforce mandatory codes or council by laws. Thats why they are calling for new laws. Right now in Australia only in NSW do the RSPCA have the power to enforce any laws other than POCTA and what the RSPCA is aiming for is to have the same power in other states which they have in NSW.

Thats why there is no point in having a go at the RSPCA because if they could have prosecuted and shut down some of these operators they would have.

The bullets need to be aimed at councils.Thats why before we start banging drums and making assumptions about the state of affairs we need to know what is real and what is not.

[Souff]

ok. so if we ONLY ban pet shops from selling live animals then HOW is that supposed to stop all those ads on the trading post and petlink? because i think anyone who knows more than a little on this subject is keenly aware that much of puppy farms sales never see a shopfront.

i'm not sure that banning pet shop sales is the way to go, but in combination with other legislation then it might be effective.

If you are talking about my post on Finnland, I think you missed the message.

1. ban pet shop sales.

2. elevate and promote ANKC breeders as the best place to go to buy a pup.

Not legislate, no where does she talk about extensive legislation. She talks about creating a different value system, you can not legislate a change of values .

l still belive that stopping live pets sold in petshops is a huge start....After all its the inpulsive buy that sells most pups .in petshops..isnt it??

The trading post takes adds via emails only now in vic so ive been told??

So the desexing law before council reg should be put into place that will eventually kill the breedin g of x breed and unreg pups.

And petlink could also be regulated.With all the above being done petlink wouldnt be used to sell pups after time

What is the point in shutting down Petlink, or regulating Petlink, or any of the other sites like Petlink?

Anyone can set up another site like that, in the middle of the night if they wish. Such is the internet and the freedoms that Australian soldiers died for!

Petlink is used by registered breeders as well as others.

It is a site where people who are looking to buy a pet can see a whole range of ads and make up their own minds.

Stop trying to shoot the messenger! Aim at the source of the problem instead.

Encourage people to advertise with as much detail as possible and they are more easily traceable!!!

Close sites like Petlink and YOU WILL FIND MORE OF THEM SELLING PUPS OUT OF THE BOOT OF A CAR, or worse, AT THE PUB ON FRIDAY NIGHT!!!

Some of you people are talking like we live in the backwoods of communist China! We do not live in communist China, or any other communist country for that matter, we live in Australia and we enjoy and we MUST RETAIN freedom of choice.

People have the freedom to use the internet as they choose and they should be encouraged to use it responsibly.

Souff

[Steve]

ok. so if we ONLY ban pet shops from selling live animals then HOW is that supposed to stop all those ads on the trading post and petlink? because i think anyone who knows more than a little on this subject is keenly aware that much of puppy farms sales never see a shopfront.

i'm not sure that banning pet shop sales is the way to go, but in combination with other legislation then it might be effective.

If you are talking about my post on Finnland, I think you missed the message.

1. ban pet shop sales.

2. elevate and promote ANKC breeders as the best place to go to buy a pup.

Not legislate, no where does she talk about extensive legislation. She talks about creating a different value system, you can not legislate a change of values .

l still belive that stopping live pets sold in petshops is a huge starat....After all its the inpulsive buy that sells most pups ...isnt it??

The trading post takes adds via emails only now in vic so ive been told??

And petlink could also be regulated.

Is it? they say its not and I can remember a debate we had here where I said I thought it was impulse buying and I was howled down.

Do you really expect that the trading post and pet link are going to be regulated ? What of people's right to free trade ?

[toy dog]

double post im sorry

Edited September 22, 2010 by toy dog

[toy dog]

The bullets need to be aimed at councils

agree. the power has been buck passed to councils who aren't doing their jobs, when they get complaints they mock the public and give lectures (like i got!) about why these poor little dogs should be bred to buggery in large farms like cattle.

I think the idea that steve raised a while ago in another thread about microchipping and making breeders put their names and addresses on chip from farms particularly is a good idea that way if they end up in shelters which a good proportion do going by statistics, they are made to be responsible for what they breed instead of palming them off to petshops and never seeing them again, might just curb their operations a little if they have to fund what they breed and don't just get pure profit from the petshop pups and never seeing them again, put their money where their mouth is, afterall they say on their website that they take back the shelter dogs if they end up there, but it would be impossible to monitor that and do it its just PR on their part to make themselves look good as they got asked that question at the open day they had.

ETA

still belive that stopping live pets sold in petshops is a huge start....After all its the inpulsive buy that sells most pups .in petshops..isnt it??

The trading post takes adds via emails only now in vic so ive been told??

So the desexing law before council reg should be put into place that will eventually kill the breedin g of x breed and unreg pups.

And petlink could also be regulated.With all the above being done petlink wouldnt be used to sell pups after time

totally agree mortonplace. it just makes you wonder as i watched that god awful video of the raid, where in the hell do these farmers get the undesexed dogs from, when i saw those pure chis i wondered that, backyarders who should be desexing their animals? really they are flaunting the law, in councils now they have a policy that all pets should be desexed yet people are still breeding their pets and selling to farms to be bred. its left to councils to make sure everyone is following the law from the pet owner to the farmer, but they still aren't doing their jobs right.

Edited September 22, 2010 by toy dog

[shortstep]

Some of you people are talking like we live in the backwoods of communist China! We do not live in communist China, or any other communist country for that matter, we live in Australia and we enjoy and we MUST RETAIN freedom of choice.

People have the freedom to use the internet as they choose and they should be encouraged to use it responsibly.

Souff

为更大利益

LOL

[aussielover]

Would limiting the number of litters allowed to be sold from one "kennel" work? It wouldn't stop BYBers but surely for puppy mills pumping out 50 litters a year a limit may work.

In ethical breeder, even if they have a large kennel wound not want to be breeding more than 5-10 litters a year I would think.

Actually on second thoughts, i;m sure these dodgy type people would find ways around any type of restrictions

[Souff]

Some of you people are talking like we live in the backwoods of communist China! We do not live in communist China, or any other communist country for that matter, we live in Australia and we enjoy and we MUST RETAIN freedom of choice.

People have the freedom to use the internet as they choose and they should be encouraged to use it responsibly.

Souff

为更大利益

LOL

Damn! I have no idea what you have just said! Interpreter please!

[shortstep]

为更大利益

LOL

Speaking of this.

Ever wonder what would have happened if the RSPCA, the Unis and the animal rights folks has spent all the money and effort they have spent on going after Pedigreed dog breeders, had instead be place towards educating the public about puppy farms and closing pet shops.

Too many RSPCA or other funded UNI research projects on purebreds to count, this could have been studies on pet shop sales and puppy farms. Parliamentary enquiries, yes could use a few of those on puppy farms. TV and other news media attention seeking, Pedigree dogs exposed, now that reached millions and was shocking. Committees and panels of experts, meetings with experts and KC all over the world. On and on.

This was and is a very well run campaign against purebred dog breeders. One thing is for sure, the whole world now knows to not buy pedigreed dogs because they are inbred and sick. Even today there is a full page on the Vic RSPCA reminding folks that ANKC dog breeders are a serious welfare issue. http://www.rspcavic.org/campaigns_news/cam...digree_dogs.htm

However if you think about it, you can only 'take out' one group of 'bad' dog breeders at a time eh?

Pedigree dog breeders are the easiest to find and identify, not only for those doing the taking out but also for the lay person buying a pup to identify and then avoid.

Further, something like this below would never work, not all at once;

Do not by Pedigree dogs they are inbred and sick.

Do not puppies from pet shops as it is inhumane and they come from bad breeders

Do not buy from BYB because they are unethical and only breed for money.

Never ever ever buy from a puppy farm.

In summary, there is no one or place that breeds dogs or sells dogs that is not a grave welfare concern.

The act of breeding dogs, the act of selling dogs, the act of buying dogs and the act of owning dogs should be banned.

Ah well, what to do, all things in due time.

为更大利益

Edited September 23, 2010 by shortstep

[Steve]

Would limiting the number of litters allowed to be sold from one "kennel" work? It wouldn't stop BYBers but surely for puppy mills pumping out 50 litters a year a limit may work.

In ethical breeder, even if they have a large kennel wound not want to be breeding more than 5-10 litters a year I would think.

Actually on second thoughts, i;m sure these dodgy type people would find ways around any type of restrictions

No that wont work - because people are just as able to breed puppies in rotten conditions whether its one puppy or 100 and the definition of a puppy farmer is NOT BASED ON HOW MANY THEY BREED.

Even if it were its against fair trading laws to put restrictions on people's ability to trade.

Edited September 22, 2010 by Steve

[toy dog]

and that was the article i found against ANKC breeders, where are they getting their facts from they are going off half cocked.....shows aren't just for appearance.....you can easily trace heritage in a pedigree dog have they talked to anyone in the ANKC to see if there are herediatary programs in place for breeds? no just go on pedigree dogs exposed from the UK. we are not the UK. grrrrrrrr

that doco featured a few people with breeds that are popular and when a breed is popular it is over bred and not the best examples are bred and genetic problems are not addressed half the time.

doesn't mean all ANKC breeders are like this and breed standards are designed for individual interpretation. doesn't matter what standards are in place it will always be interpreted individually. so what do they suggest take away all breed standards and we can all just have DD's to have a genetic diversity? lol we have enough genetic diversity in this country as it is within breeds. (!!) geeeeeeshhhh

this is the problem people are in power that have no idea but still spout off though and end up shaping and making the laws.

sorry just venting!!!!!!!!!!!