Puppy Farm Awareness Rally

[Souff]

I know what they prefer Souff. I have met many of their prominant members. And yet when an animal is in need they have helped me. They transported the cat I had whos owner wouldnt pay out of their own pockets, they look for homes for pups and do mailouts. They also know my standpoint on eating meat, that my partner and I hunt and we're not swayed by vegan thinking and never will.

not everyone out there is a nut case.

Nobody said anything about nut cases.

The stated aims of the organisation says enough in itself.

[megan_]

Souff - calling people gullible is hardly a way to win an argument. I don't agree with every ALV sentiment, just like many Catholics don't believe everything that the Church does, every ALP member doesn't support abortion etc etc.

I DO know, however, that they have often shamed the RSPCA into action and that they have helped hundreds on dogs. Who here amongst us can say we've done the same (Schnauzer maybe?)?

To those who oppose the rally but are against puppy farmers - I suggest doing something soon....

[Nekhbet]

To promote excellence in breeding, showing, trialling, obedience and other canine related activities and the ownership of temperamentally and physically sound pure bred dogs by responsible individuals across Australia.

To promote responsible dog ownership and encourage State Member Bodies to put in place programs to that effect.

To act as spokesperson on all canine related activities on a National basis on behalf of State Member Bodies and to pledge assistance and support to the respective State Member Bodies.

This is the ANKC statement. How close are they sticking to this?

[Souff]

Souff - calling people gullible is hardly a way to win an argument. I don't agree with every ALV sentiment, just like many Catholics don't believe everything that the Church does, every ALP member doesn't support abortion etc etc.

I DO know, however, that they have often shamed the RSPCA into action and that they have helped hundreds on dogs. Who here amongst us can say we've done the same (Schnauzer maybe?)?

To those who oppose the rally but are against puppy farmers - I suggest doing something soon....

Who said I wanted to win any argument?

I prefer to spend my time promulgating educational material and then let other thinking people make up their own minds.

[Souff]

Double post!!! grrrr

Edited September 22, 2010 by Souff

[Souff]

To promote excellence in breeding, showing, trialling, obedience and other canine related activities and the ownership of temperamentally and physically sound pure bred dogs by responsible individuals across Australia.

To promote responsible dog ownership and encourage State Member Bodies to put in place programs to that effect.

To act as spokesperson on all canine related activities on a National basis on behalf of State Member Bodies and to pledge assistance and support to the respective State Member Bodies.

This is the ANKC statement. How close are they sticking to this?

Nekhbet,

Tell me which bits you have concerns with and I will be happy to pass it on to ANKC and ask why they are falling down on the job.

Souff

[Lhok]

Traditional principles of property rights include:

1. control of the use of the property

2. the right to any benefit from the property (examples: mining rights and rent)

3. a right to transfer or sell the property

4. a right to exclude others from the property.

So when the ALV states:

"TO ABOLISH THE PROPERTY STATUS OF ANIMALS

Animal Liberation Victoria endorses an animal rights position which maintains that all sentient beings, regardless of species, have the right to be treated as independent entities, and not as the property of others."

The potential implications of this statement alone could have massive wide reaching effects, due to the fact that when you stop using the term property to apply to animals you lose all of the traditional principles of property rights.

Which includes breeding dogs.

--Lhok

[Souff]

souf it says they have the right to be treated as independant entities not property.

I think you need the link so you can read it for yourself, direct from their site: http://www.alv.org.au/about.php

Animal Liberation of Victoria (ALV) ... in their own words.

[Cosmolo]

Personally i don't think the combining of multiple issues (rolling them all into one) like what has happened in this thread is beneficial. Why can't we instead create new threads to discuss each individual issue and how it might be resolved. Perhaps starting each thread with relevant legislative differences for each state so that there is no confusion. Does anyone else think this may work better than bickering back and forth? I do NOT want to be dismissive of breeders concerns- but i also don't think breeders should be dismissive of others point of view either.

I just thought i would re post this in case anyone is interested.

[Souff]

I don't think breeders are being dismissive of the points of view of other people.

Those who went to the rally, and all dog owners and breeders for that matter, have a right to know the underlying agenda of ALV is.

Or would you prefer that they didnt know that?

[megan_]

What makes you think they don't? What makes you think that they are - in your words - gullible?

ETA: and there have been a few "how dare you''s on this thread. Too tired to go back and pick them out, but they are there.

Edited September 22, 2010 by megan_

[oakway]

I don't believe that the topic needs separating.

I see no where in this topic where registered breeders do not see or fully support the closure of puppy farms.

Unfortunately the boot seems to be on the other foot.

[Souff]

What makes you think they don't? What makes you think that they are - in your words - gullible?

ETA: and there have been a few "how dare you''s on this thread. Too tired to go back and pick them out, but they are there.

Many people believe the best and then later find out the real agenda. They feel gullible when they realise the truth and the far reaching and damaging effects of some of the activist organisations.

Souff used to be conned by real estate agents, and other sales people. They were very good at putting a positive spin on things that had a very different message underneath, and then later, when I discovered their true agenda, I felt gullible.

Nothing wrong with feeling gullible, and plenty of people do feel that way once they know the true message behind some of the organisations whose front says they are helping animals.

We all want to help animals.

But denying them a good future is not helping, it is damage that once done, can NEVER be undone.

Once gone, many dog breeds will join the hundreds of other species that have been wiped out.

You can go down that path if you wish, but I wont be and I will continue to tell others that that path leads to destruction of dog breeds.

Souff

[WreckitWhippet]

It would be lovely if it really were just about puppy farms and how to shut them down or at the very least improve the conditions of the bitches, dogs and pups but the issues and agenda's of those involved, make it much more complicated.

[Lhok]

I am not a breeder of dogs

At the time when I first read about the rally I thought it was a great thing (and it is a good thing people are getting it into the public forum) however after the wave of emotion calmed down I looked at the whole thing logically and I didn't like what I was seeing for the future of dogs in the future.

It is all good to get emotion behind a cause but if you don't have logic and fore sight for the future, the seeds you sow today can be your demise in the future. I personally think the first step would be ban the sale of live animals from pet shops, like they have in some of the states in America because the whole thing is people will do whatever they want if they know it will get them money.

--Lhok

[Steve]

I am not a breeder of dogs

At the time when I first read about the rally I thought it was a great thing (and it is a good thing people are getting it into the public forum) however after the wave of emotion calmed down I looked at the whole thing logically and I didn't like what I was seeing for the future of dogs in the future.

It is all good to get emotion behind a cause but if you don't have logic and fore sight for the future, the seeds you sow today can be your demise in the future. I personally think the first step would be ban the sale of live animals from pet shops, like they have in some of the states in America because the whole thing is people will do whatever they want if they know it will get them money.

--Lhok

O.K. so we ban the sale of live animals in pet shops - what then?

People will still be breeding lots of dogs, people will still be buying lots of dogs, people will get more money for what they breed because there is no middle man. No middle man to filter out the rotten operators and act as a buffer between rotten breeders and the new owners. What then?

[schnauzer]

ok reading some statements about ALV, i have obviously missed something here, where does it say they are against reg breeders? i am not involved in the group but i support what they are trying to do from afar on their website, and that is closing down puppy mills thats what i understand it to be.

The underlying goal of ALV is to abolish the property status of animals. They are against all breeders.

I totally disagree with this statement.

I have read this thread with interest :D and wonder if anyone commenting in this thread has even been to a puppy farm, or rescued and rehabilitated a puppy farm bitch/es?

The rally was to bring AWARENESS to the conditions of puppy farm dogs and stop sales of dogs in pet shops and to introduce Oscar's Law.

I applaud people like Cosmolo who has stood up for the rights of those dogs that are suffering such shocking cruelty every day of their lives.

Not much point in disagreeing I see what their goal is in plain sight on their website.

Yes Ive been to a puppy farm and I have 2 dogs here now which have come from one.

The rights of the dogs? Feed the crocodile.

Yes Steve, every puppy farm dog has the right to a normal dog life. Not a life constricted in a cage, living in urine and faeces and being bred until the dog is no longer able.

I would have thought the MDBA would have a very strong stance in seeing all puppy farms abolished?

You see just because I dont agree with the method doesnt mean I dont agree with the intent.

Of course the MDBA has a strong stance on stopping puppy farms you know that but I dont agree that what is going on here is the way to do it.

I understand that the majority of people have good intentions but there are unintended consequences which I happen to think outweigh any potential benefits.

What is your definition of a puppy farm?

As an owner I have a responsibility to ensure my dogs have a good life - thats different to allocating rights to the dog.I have a right to own a dog as long as I am responsible. A dog doesnt have a right to anything because it cant be responsible for anything.

I am very glad to hear that the MDBA supports the abolishment of puppy farms.

My definition of a puppy farm is the opposite of an ethical registered breeder. Mass breeding/farming of dogs, no socialisation, no/little vet care, kennelled/caged continually, bred every season until unable to breed-then disposed of, pups taken away from bitch too early, no/little human contact. etc etc.

We will have to agree to disagree - I believe that every dog as a domesticated animal has the right to a happy life.

[Cosmolo]

Steve what do you advocate? What is the MDBA's position on all of these issues and what action do they believe should be taken if any? I am trying to get past the accusations and conspiracy theories (true or not) to get to what everyone would like to see done INSTEAD.

ETA i agree with schnauzer- i believe every dog has the right to a happy life.

Edited September 22, 2010 by Cosmolo

[SnoPaws]

This thread makes me feel sick and sad and angry

I think one point everyone is missing is that the RSPCA already have the legislation and laws in place to shut down puppy farms, the simple fact is they don't want to. Puppy farms and bybs provide them with the raw commodities they need to make money both through donations and adoptions, ANKC breeders do not. Take a visit to your local shelter how many purebred registered dogs are there, how many crossbreds or byb staffy/mastiff crosses are there?? Puppy farms and BYBs provide the RSPCA with an income stream, registered, ethical breeders do not. It is registered breeders they will target not puppy farms

The RSCPA already have the means to seize any dog from anyone, anytime, anywhere. It could be the most healthy, happy dog ever, it doesn't matter if you a breeder or not, the laws allow them to do whatever they please to that dog and IF they return it to you to charge you whatever they want and you have no right of recourse or complaint, full stop and you want to give them more power . Saying if you do the right thing you won't have a problem is the biggest load of crock I have ever heard. They can sieze anyones dog for NO reason whatsoever.

The RSPCA have jumped on your bandwagon (for want of a better word - believe me I abhor puppy farms and would happily be thrown into jail to stop even one), they have taken the steering wheel and will take this where they want it to go, you are just passengers now *shakes head* how very sad :D for dogs everywhere

[megan_]

The RSCPA already have the means to seize any dog from anyone, anytime, anywhere.

Can you please provide a reference to this? Where in the legislation does it say something to this effect? The rally was in Victoria and your statement does not apply to this state.

No one is asking for the RSPCA to have more power - they are asking for laws to be re-written to protect puppy farm dogs. Surely you WANT the legislation to be re-drafted if you think it is so bad.

Again, what is the pure dog community doing instead? Easy to throw stones....