Puppy Farm Awareness Rally

[oakway]

... the rally was not organised by, or about the RSPCA, Judy Gard, Dangerous dog legislation or anything else. It was to raise public awareness about WHERE their dogs are coming from.

Was that all it was for, though?

No it was to push for new laws for breeding establishments and stopping the sales of dogs in pet shops.

Yes - that was my point behind my question.

And if it is a push for laws, then some organisation is going to have be granted licence to enforce/police those laws.

And who do we think that might be?

I'll whistle you point.

[schnauzer]

ok reading some statements about ALV, i have obviously missed something here, where does it say they are against reg breeders? i am not involved in the group but i support what they are trying to do from afar on their website, and that is closing down puppy mills thats what i understand it to be.

The underlying goal of ALV is to abolish the property status of animals. They are against all breeders.

I totally disagree with this statement.

I have read this thread with interest :D and wonder if anyone commenting in this thread has even been to a puppy farm, or rescued and rehabilitated a puppy farm bitch/es?

The rally was to bring AWARENESS to the conditions of puppy farm dogs and stop sales of dogs in pet shops and to introduce Oscar's Law.

I applaud people like Cosmolo who has stood up for the rights of those dogs that are suffering such shocking cruelty every day of their lives.

[Steve]

ok reading some statements about ALV, i have obviously missed something here, where does it say they are against reg breeders? i am not involved in the group but i support what they are trying to do from afar on their website, and that is closing down puppy mills thats what i understand it to be.

The underlying goal of ALV is to abolish the property status of animals. They are against all breeders.

I totally disagree with this statement.

I have read this thread with interest :D and wonder if anyone commenting in this thread has even been to a puppy farm, or rescued and rehabilitated a puppy farm bitch/es?

The rally was to bring AWARENESS to the conditions of puppy farm dogs and stop sales of dogs in pet shops and to introduce Oscar's Law.

I applaud people like Cosmolo who has stood up for the rights of those dogs that are suffering such shocking cruelty every day of their lives.

Not much point in disagreeing I see what their goal is in plain sight on their website.

Yes Ive been to a puppy farm and I have 2 dogs here now which have come from one.

The rights of the dogs? Feed the crocodile.

[WreckitWhippet]

Souff, the alternative to the commune, is that every breeder selects their prospects to continue on with, shares amongst their fellow breeders and knocks the rest on the head.

Naturally that would have people up in arms.

[megan_]

... the rally was not organised by, or about the RSPCA, Judy Gard, Dangerous dog legislation or anything else. It was to raise public awareness about WHERE their dogs are coming from.

Was that all it was for, though?

No it was to push for new laws for breeding establishments and stopping the sales of dogs in pet shops.

Yes - that was my point behind my question.

And if it is a push for laws, then some organisation is going to have be granted licence to enforce/police those laws.

And who do we think that might be?

The laws are going to change - there is public momentum. All that remains to be decided is whether the ANKC is going to have input into them or not. Missed opportunity on their part.

I agree Cosmolo - if Joe Average read this thread I think the hostility would be very off putting.

Edit - Steve, I get where you're coming from, but what is the MDBA's position on cleaning up the mess? I don't beleive that a breeder has the right to make a dog suffer for a buck, registered or not. I'm sure you don't either, so what can be done to help the dogs in these farms? Existing laws in Victoria DON'T cut it - afterall, most of the puppies in those tiny window boxes are kept to the standards in the laws. I understand that breeders are hesitant re: more laws, but surely the "head in the sand" approach is giving the puppy farmers/DD crowd EXACTLY what they want?

I don't expect a breeder to be hand-in-hand with an animal liber. I expect them to be doing something though, even if it is their own draft legislation, campaigns etc. I've said it many times before, but I believe that the ANKC has missed a GOLDEN opportunity to promote ethically bred pure breds. From the outside looking in, the "not in my backyard" stance looks like people are covering things up.

Edited September 22, 2010 by megan_

[Cosmolo]

Yes thats true- although the push for new laws is already happening, they didn't need a public rally for that. But it most certainly not about getting rid of registered breeders as many seem to think. I cannot believe there is so much opposition to getting puppies out of pet shops and cracking down on the factory farming of dogs on this forum.

The Victorian legislation is a disaster as it sits at the moment for dog laws across the board- i think that we can all agree on. Reform needs to happen- the question is, who is going to push that reform and who will have input. Included in that reform can and should be adjustments to the way the RSPCA investigates and prosecutes cases. Oscars Law is one push. That does not mean it ends there with what they are asking for- the process will be ongoing and NOW is the perfect time to put forward detailed alternatives that address the issues without the negative spin off you are suggesting will happen. Simply saying- no that one is wrong won't be good enough.

Personally i don't think the combining of multiple issues (rolling them all into one) like what has happened in this thread is beneficial. Why can't we instead create new threads to discuss each individual issue and how it might be resolved. Perhaps starting each thread with relevant legislative differences for each state so that there is no confusion. Does anyone else think this may work better than bickering back and forth? I do NOT want to be dismissive of breeders concerns- but i also don't think breeders should be dismissive of others point of view either.

Can someone please provide me with evidentiary links regarding ALV's stance on registered breeders and the desire to ban ALL breeding of animals. Thanks.

[Souff]

Souff, the alternative to the commune, is that every breeder selects their prospects to continue on with, shares amongst their fellow breeders and knocks the rest on the head.

Naturally that would have people up in arms.

No, we are all way too soft to do any bucketing and anyway, we wont be allowed to own entire dogs - the government will only let you keep the old and feeble desexed dogs.

All entire dogs of breeding age must belong to the commune ..... for the greater good.

And we will all be given little red books........ for our own good otherwise you will be fodder for the Peta firing squad.

Welcome to the brave new world of dogs Australia!

Souff

[Lhok]

Can someone please provide me with evidentiary links regarding ALV's stance on registered breeders and the desire to ban ALL breeding of animals. Thanks.

Pulled from the Animal Liberation of Australia website (http://animal-lib.org.au/about-us/who-we-are.html) :

"Animal Liberation believes all animals (yes humans are animals too) have a right to live how they would normally choose without other species intervention."

--Lhok

[schnauzer]

ok reading some statements about ALV, i have obviously missed something here, where does it say they are against reg breeders? i am not involved in the group but i support what they are trying to do from afar on their website, and that is closing down puppy mills thats what i understand it to be.

The underlying goal of ALV is to abolish the property status of animals. They are against all breeders.

I totally disagree with this statement.

I have read this thread with interest :D and wonder if anyone commenting in this thread has even been to a puppy farm, or rescued and rehabilitated a puppy farm bitch/es?

The rally was to bring AWARENESS to the conditions of puppy farm dogs and stop sales of dogs in pet shops and to introduce Oscar's Law.

I applaud people like Cosmolo who has stood up for the rights of those dogs that are suffering such shocking cruelty every day of their lives.

Not much point in disagreeing I see what their goal is in plain sight on their website.

Yes Ive been to a puppy farm and I have 2 dogs here now which have come from one.

The rights of the dogs? Feed the crocodile.

Yes Steve, every puppy farm dog has the right to a normal dog life. Not a life constricted in a cage, living in urine and faeces and being bred until the dog is no longer able.

I would have thought the MDBA would have a very strong stance in seeing all puppy farms abolished?

[megan_]

Can someone please provide me with evidentiary links regarding ALV's stance on registered breeders and the desire to ban ALL breeding of animals. Thanks.

Pulled from the Animal Liberation of Australia website (http://animal-lib.org.au/about-us/who-we-are.html) :

"Animal Liberation believes all animals (yes humans are animals too) have a right to live how they would normally choose without other species intervention."

--Lhok

ALV is Animal Liberation Victoria, not Australia.

[Souff]

Can someone please provide me with evidentiary links regarding ALV's stance on registered breeders and the desire to ban ALL breeding of animals. Thanks.

Pulled from the Animal Liberation of Australia website (http://animal-lib.org.au/about-us/who-we-are.html) :

"Animal Liberation believes all animals (yes humans are animals too) have a right to live how they would normally choose without other species intervention."

--Lhok

ALV is Animal Liberation Victoria, not Australia.

Not exactly a big difference Megan.

[Nekhbet]

There are currently five separate Animal Liberation organisations operating in Australia. These groups share the same name, but are autonomous organisations each with their own constitution, statement of purposes and modus operandi. The other Animal Liberation groups are located in New South Wales (NSW), Queensland (QLD), Australian Capital Territory (ACT) and South Australia (SA).

[megan_]

Cosmolo asked where the evidence was that Animal Liberation Victoria wanted to ban the sale of all dogs. There is a difference and the source needs to come from the ALV IMO.

Here's the ALV site: www.alv.org.au - I'm looking now. 10 points to whoever finds the evidence first!

[Souff]

Just so we are clear this is from the ALV website. Souff did the bolding.

Animal Liberation Victoria's STATEMENT OF PURPOSES are as follows:

TO ABOLISH THE PROPERTY STATUS OF ANIMALS

Animal Liberation Victoria endorses an animal rights position which maintains that all sentient beings, regardless of species, have the right to be treated as independent entities, and not as the property of others.

TO ABOLISH, AND NOT MERELY REGULATE, INSTITUTIONLISED ANIMAL EXPLOITATION

Animal Liberation Victoria supports only those campaigns and positions that explicitly promote the abolitionist agenda, placing primary emphasis on animals in factory farms and abattoirs. We recognise we will not abolish animal exploitation and the property status of animals overnight, but will encourage at all times the adoption of a vegan lifestyle as the most appropriate course to achieve these aims.

TO ABOLISH HUMAN'S SPECIEST ATTITUDES AND PRACTICES

Just as we reject racism, sexism, ageism and homophobia, we reject speciesism. The species of sentient beings is no more a reason to deny any individual the basic right not to be the property of others, than is race, sex, age or sexual orientation a reason to deny membership in the moral community to other humans.

TO ENCOURAGE AND NURTURE ANIMAL RIGHTS EDUCATION

Animal Liberation Victoria commits itself to public education concerning the rights of animals and the importance of defending any other animal whose language communication is different to our own, and who are thus unable to 'speak' for themselves.

TO ENDORSE THE PRINCIPLE OF NON-VIOLENCE

All campaigns and positions of Animal Liberation Victoria use non-violence as their guiding principle and rule of operation. Our work fosters giving aid and rescue to any animal who is suffering in pain and left unattended.

[Lhok]

Can someone please provide me with evidentiary links regarding ALV's stance on registered breeders and the desire to ban ALL breeding of animals. Thanks.

Pulled from the Animal Liberation of Australia website (http://animal-lib.org.au/about-us/who-we-are.html) :

"Animal Liberation believes all animals (yes humans are animals too) have a right to live how they would normally choose without other species intervention."

--Lhok

ALV is Animal Liberation Victoria, not Australia.

Which is from what I can see the Victorian branch of Animal Liberation Australia.

--Lhok

[Nekhbet]

in fact ...

KEEPING THE RSPCA HONEST

ABC’s Four Corners recently ran an investigative report on the RSPCA turning a blind eye to cruelty for the benefit of commercial interests. ALV is keeping the pressure on the RSPCA over their continued failure to help all creatures great and small. The RSPCA is authorised under Section 24 of the Victorian Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act to prosecute for cruelty to animals. The RSPCA has consistently ignored clearly documented cases of animal abuse on factory farms. Despite being presented with clear video and photographic evidence of horrific animal suffering at numerous factory farms (including PACE farms, Australia’s largest battery egg producer) by the ALV animal rescue team, the RSPCA has never launched a cruelty prosecution. What the RSPCA has done, to their disgrace, is enter into a business arrangement with PACE FARMS that makes them hundreds of thousands of dollars. ALV has attended all of the RSPCA’s major public events handing out our “RSPCA checklist leaflet” to educate the public about what’s wrong with the RSPCA. To get involved in the campaign please contact [email protected].

souf it says they have the right to be treated as independant entities not property.

Edited September 22, 2010 by Nekhbet

[megan_]

AS Nehkbet posted above - they are not. They are completely seperate organisations that share a common name.

[Souff]

Just so we are clear this is from the ALV website. Souff did the bolding.

Animal Liberation Victoria's STATEMENT OF PURPOSES are as follows:

TO ABOLISH THE PROPERTY STATUS OF ANIMALS

Animal Liberation Victoria endorses an animal rights position which maintains that all sentient beings, regardless of species, have the right to be treated as independent entities, and not as the property of others.

TO ABOLISH, AND NOT MERELY REGULATE, INSTITUTIONLISED ANIMAL EXPLOITATION

Animal Liberation Victoria supports only those campaigns and positions that explicitly promote the abolitionist agenda, placing primary emphasis on animals in factory farms and abattoirs. We recognise we will not abolish animal exploitation and the property status of animals overnight, but will encourage at all times the adoption of a vegan lifestyle as the most appropriate course to achieve these aims.

TO ABOLISH HUMAN'S SPECIEST ATTITUDES AND PRACTICES

Just as we reject racism, sexism, ageism and homophobia, we reject speciesism. The species of sentient beings is no more a reason to deny any individual the basic right not to be the property of others, than is race, sex, age or sexual orientation a reason to deny membership in the moral community to other humans.

TO ENCOURAGE AND NURTURE ANIMAL RIGHTS EDUCATION

Animal Liberation Victoria commits itself to public education concerning the rights of animals and the importance of defending any other animal whose language communication is different to our own, and who are thus unable to 'speak' for themselves.

TO ENDORSE THE PRINCIPLE OF NON-VIOLENCE

All campaigns and positions of Animal Liberation Victoria use non-violence as their guiding principle and rule of operation. Our work fosters giving aid and rescue to any animal who is suffering in pain and left unattended.

Souff forgot to bold the bit about "SPECIEST ATTITUDES AND PRACTICES" so make sure you read it and have a little think about that one too.

It is all straight from the Bible of PETA, and slavishly practiced by ALL of the animal liberation groups and their extremely naive followers.

But dont feel that you are alone in being gullible, they have conned plenty of others too.

Souff

[Nekhbet]

I know what they prefer Souff. I have met many of their prominant members. And yet when an animal is in need they have helped me. They transported the cat I had whos owner wouldnt pay out of their own pockets, they look for homes for pups and do mailouts. They also know my standpoint on eating meat, that my partner and I hunt and we're not swayed by vegan thinking and never will.

not everyone out there is a nut case.

[Steve]

ok reading some statements about ALV, i have obviously missed something here, where does it say they are against reg breeders? i am not involved in the group but i support what they are trying to do from afar on their website, and that is closing down puppy mills thats what i understand it to be.

The underlying goal of ALV is to abolish the property status of animals. They are against all breeders.

I totally disagree with this statement.

I have read this thread with interest :D and wonder if anyone commenting in this thread has even been to a puppy farm, or rescued and rehabilitated a puppy farm bitch/es?

The rally was to bring AWARENESS to the conditions of puppy farm dogs and stop sales of dogs in pet shops and to introduce Oscar's Law.

I applaud people like Cosmolo who has stood up for the rights of those dogs that are suffering such shocking cruelty every day of their lives.

Not much point in disagreeing I see what their goal is in plain sight on their website.

Yes Ive been to a puppy farm and I have 2 dogs here now which have come from one.

The rights of the dogs? Feed the crocodile.

Yes Steve, every puppy farm dog has the right to a normal dog life. Not a life constricted in a cage, living in urine and faeces and being bred until the dog is no longer able.

I would have thought the MDBA would have a very strong stance in seeing all puppy farms abolished?

You see just because I dont agree with the method doesnt mean I dont agree with the intent.

Of course the MDBA has a strong stance on stopping puppy farms you know that but I dont agree that what is going on here is the way to do it.

I understand that the majority of people have good intentions but there are unintended consequences which I happen to think outweigh any potential benefits.

What is your definition of a puppy farm?

As an owner I have a responsibility to ensure my dogs have a good life - thats different to allocating rights to the dog.I have a right to own a dog as long as I am responsible. A dog doesnt have a right to anything because it cant be responsible for anything.