Puppy Farm Awareness Rally

[BJean]

Amazing- How many parents would want DOCS coming to their homes and doing random inspections on where their kids sleep? How many parents don't have the right to choose whether their kids are not vaccinated? I have a 13 year old son who has been to the doctors [except for vaccinations] twice in his life. Thank God I don't have to keep health records for him! I went to the doctors this year on my birthday - the first time for 6 years yet I'm a bad person if I don't take my dogs every year?????

Im thinking how many pugnacious, contemptuous tweens and teens would comply as well.

Those inspectors are going to have to go in armed with padding!

[BJean]

This pic sums up a good 'birthing' establishment for my preferred breed which shines as an inside companion dog.

Pic taken in a room of a registered breeder's house, with a 'baby-sitter' helping out. By the way, the baby-sitter is not related to the puppies.

Just another family member helping out & taking a snooze.

Another secret ingredient in a beautifully bred pure-bred dog. Don't know if and how this could ever be put into legislation, tho'.

Wouldn't it just follow that every step needed to care for these babies would be taken by such a breeder?

oh but you know they should.

is crap on the floor allowed, or would that insult sensibilities?

because I can clean the crap up beforehand

but sometimes I miss a few.

[Julie R]

I guess it all depends on why you breed dogs and what you expect to get out of it yourself. When I whelp a litter I share the experience with my bitches. Bitches I know and love as I do my family. For me just bringing the bitch back when she is to have puppies would be like being a nurse or midwife to humans.No emotional attachment - just a job. Thats not what I get out of breeding dogs. My bitches are my mates and I care about them more than I can put into words - if they lived with someone else I wouldn't know them as well and they wouldn't know me either. No bonding not for me.

Steve, I know what you're saying. The registered breeders that I've adopted my adult tibbies from stay in touch & always ask 'How is my girl going?'

And I love them for it. Just shows with how much love, care & personal attention those dogs were raised.

OK, they're my dogs now, paid for (with money the breeders didn't care much about), microchipped and registered in my name. But there's a lovely bond that will always exist between their breeder & them. So, of course, they still say, 'My dog'. That's the precious, secret ingredient in the best produced purebred dogs. Pet-owners should know that's what to look for! It's the key thing that puppy-farming (whoever does it) does not do...& hasn't a clue even exists.

Hi Mita

And there is no better feeling in the world than when a person who brought a puppy from you either brings it back to see you when it has matured or you catch up somewhere and the puppy/dog remembers exactly who you are and gets so excited to see you again, to me it is quite an emotional experience and shows that the puppy loved you and trusted you.

I am sure puppy farmers who produce huge amounts of puppies would never have that sort of experience, how could they possibly form any sort of a bond with the amount of puppies they breed.

Pam

[Steve]

But Mita thats really the whole point for all of us - it cant be put into legislation and it offends my sense of justice to entertain the idea of some ranger coming into my home to see whether or not my birthing establishment is acceptable to them even though there is no reason why it wouldn't be. Should I have no rights to do what I want within my own home without getting a tick because someone somewhere breeds hundreds of puppies in a shipping container out the back of the boonies without giving a damn about their welfare?

[Steve]

I guess it all depends on why you breed dogs and what you expect to get out of it yourself. When I whelp a litter I share the experience with my bitches. Bitches I know and love as I do my family. For me just bringing the bitch back when she is to have puppies would be like being a nurse or midwife to humans.No emotional attachment - just a job. Thats not what I get out of breeding dogs. My bitches are my mates and I care about them more than I can put into words - if they lived with someone else I wouldn't know them as well and they wouldn't know me either. No bonding not for me.

Steve, I know what you're saying. The registered breeders that I've adopted my adult tibbies from stay in touch & always ask 'How is my girl going?'

And I love them for it. Just shows with how much love, care & personal attention those dogs were raised.

OK, they're my dogs now, paid for (with money the breeders didn't care much about), microchipped and registered in my name. But there's a lovely bond that will always exist between their breeder & them. So, of course, they still say, 'My dog'. That's the precious, secret ingredient in the best produced purebred dogs. Pet-owners should know that's what to look for! It's the key thing that puppy-farming (whoever does it) does not do...& hasn't a clue even exists.

Hi Mita

And there is no better feeling in the world than when a person who brought a puppy from you either brings it back to see you when it has matured or you catch up somewhere and the puppy/dog remembers exactly who you are and gets so excited to see you again, to me it is quite an emotional experience and shows that the puppy loved you and trusted you.

I am sure puppy farmers who produce huge amounts of puppies would never have that sort of experience, how could they possibly form any sort of a bond with the amount of puppies they breed.

Pam

I love every baby I breed but I bond with the ones I keep a thousand times more as they share my life with me. Matilda was there for me when my Mum and Dad died, she was there to greet me when I came home from hospital with a new baby and she saw me through a divorce and a new marriage. No puppy I send home with a new family shares those sort of things with me and while Im very happy to hear updates and to know they are happy and their new families are feeling for them what I feel for mine if they don't share my life with me snuggle up with me of an evening etc for the first few years of their life its not the same for me. I still care but there is no equal to the love I feel for the ones who are a constant part of my life. When I sit with these girls and watch them giving birth the feelings I have for them are in part because I love them so much and I dont want to just have baby puppies with a stranger.

[pip1981]

I look at the Breeders statement

Sammies really do much better when living as part of the family, and allowed inside or where the family spends the most time

being spot on for a family or individual buying one pup/dog as a pet. Of course the animal is not going to do well on it's own isolated. A dog alone on its own away from other dogs and humans is not what we want.

Dogs living in a breeders or exhibitors establishment where the number of dogs and or sexes means that for some of the time at least they need to be kennelled etc are not alone, they have the rest of the dog pack to interact with. I don't see this as unacceptable and that the dogs are missing out on anything, they have their dog family around as well as the times they spend with their humans. So I don't see this as contradictory.

Does this change anything for you?

Thanks Crisovar, this does change things for me, somewhat. I am now thinking of my 2 dogs while we are at work. I'm only comfortable with this situation, as I think their lives are 'fulfilled' for want of a better word, when we are home, and they don't display behaviours which would indicate otherwise. So, yes this could be achieved in the kennel situation described, but I still don't think it would be as easily maintained as in a home situation, and therefore, would probably not be an overly common situation in a large kennel. Which, once again, is why I think breeding operations need to be judged individually.

And, just out of curiosity, in a large kennel such as the one mentioned, when you say they have each other to interact with, do you mean they are in the same pens, more than one dog? I've never visited a registered 'kennel', but have had a few described to me, that always sounded more like boarding kennels to me, one dog per pen, with basic needs met, but no 'playthings' to keep minds stimulated, etc.

I think the DOCS comparison is a tad ridiculous, unless you're breeding and selling children.

[Steve]

I look at the Breeders statement

Sammies really do much better when living as part of the family, and allowed inside or where the family spends the most time

being spot on for a family or individual buying one pup/dog as a pet. Of course the animal is not going to do well on it's own isolated. A dog alone on its own away from other dogs and humans is not what we want.

Dogs living in a breeders or exhibitors establishment where the number of dogs and or sexes means that for some of the time at least they need to be kennelled etc are not alone, they have the rest of the dog pack to interact with. I don't see this as unacceptable and that the dogs are missing out on anything, they have their dog family around as well as the times they spend with their humans. So I don't see this as contradictory.

Does this change anything for you?

Thanks Crisovar, this does change things for me, somewhat. I am now thinking of my 2 dogs while we are at work. I'm only comfortable with this situation, as I think their lives are 'fulfilled' for want of a better word, when we are home, and they don't display behaviours which would indicate otherwise. So, yes this could be achieved in the kennel situation described, but I still don't think it would be as easily maintained as in a home situation, and therefore, would probably not be an overly common situation in a large kennel. Which, once again, is why I think breeding operations need to be judged individually.

And, just out of curiosity, in a large kennel such as the one mentioned, when you say they have each other to interact with, do you mean they are in the same pens, more than one dog? I've never visited a registered 'kennel', but have had a few described to me, that always sounded more like boarding kennels to me, one dog per pen, with basic needs met, but no 'playthings' to keep minds stimulated, etc.

I think the DOCS comparison is a tad ridiculous, unless you're breeding and selling children.

I have been breeding children - 8 to be exact and I have more rights to how I house them than and treat them than I do in how I raise my dogs and that is a much bigger piece of ridiculous in my opinion.

I spend a major part of my life in getting it right for my dogs but its all negated because someone who doesn't breed dogs - never has and never will wants to stop someone else who has nothing to do with me or my dogs.

[shortstep]

What I do know, about MY breed of choice, is that anything you read about them as pets (or what breeders tell puppy buyers) says they do BEST with their family, in their home. Therefore, I wouldn't source 'Samoyed' pups from an establishment such as the one you described, because I would prefer to encourage those who treat their dogs as they wish their puppies to be treated in their new homes. Like, I said, I'm limited to one breed, but should we have different rules for different breeds? I really don't know.

You may not think so, but if you keep pushing to regulate the hell out of small home breeders, your only choice for your new dog may be a fully regulated large breeding establishment. You just don't get it.

What you need to do is follow a breeder and live the life through one litter and see what is involved. Picking the parents, raising them up, not all will turn out as hoped, health testing, then everything looks good and you find about a sibling has a problem and you decide to not use the dog you kept. Ok try again, another 2-3 years gone, you go through it all again and you finally have the right dog you feel you can breed in good conscious and want to breed (lets not forget that most breeders who are breeding a pup for ourselves are looking for very special dogs). Then you pick the sire, other side of the country, several thousand gone in stud fees and travel/stay expenses and time off work (I will not send my dogs off, I go with them). Then 8 weeks later no litter, you missed. Try again 6-9 months later. Finally a litter but the last pup get stuck so a C-section to get it out and the litter is now in the red and you have not even raised them yet.

Ever tried to socialize a pup, sure you must have done it with your dog, lots of work eh? Now do it 8 times over with each pup in the litter. There is never enough time in the day. The new owners are all lined up and have been waiting over a year, they want photos every day and lots of reports on each pup. Making sure you get kids in the house to play with them, making sure you get them out to see the world and something different every day. Boby awareness skills, sounds and noise work, puppy walks in the paddocks, new toys everyday, teach them to come, to take food from your hand and to lure. show them the pool and let them learn to at least get their feet wet, teach them to tug and chase a ball and the last days teach them to sleep in a crate at night so their new owners have a great first night! It goes on and on and on. Thank goodness I am retired and can devote my whole day to the babies.

Now add to all this lots of laws, inspections and possible prosecution. Driven by people you do not know and who do not know you, yet are controlling your actions. People like you going to rallies pushing for laws to take over and regulate how I will breed dogs and how I will live not only with the dog I choose to breed, but with every dog in my home. All under threat that I am no different to a puppy mill. Then with a straight face tell me I have nothing to worry about as long as I meet the standards. Gee thanks, but after much consideration I will pass.

You know what, have at it. I am getting old, I am sure i am old fashion. You should become the dog breeder since you seem to know how it should be done in todays world.

I will stop breeding and apply for the inspectors job and earn some money for a change. Will be at your home one bright sunny day ready to do an inspection! LOL

Edited September 20, 2010 by shortstep

[mackiemad]

Oakway- that IS part of Oscars Law. For goodness sake, go and read what was being protested!!

Have you read it fully.

Are we talking about the same document the 117 page document.

ok shortstep. i'm officially confused. what is the 117 page document you're talking about? because a lot of what you think should be is actually included in the proposed oscar's law. we were asking for legislation to be drawn up, unless you are privvy to information that the rest of us don't know i think you may be confusing what we are proposing in victoria with what is in place in other states.

seriously oakway. i'm happy to discuss these issues because they are important. but i can't do that unless i actually know what you're trying to say.

and generally, yes. every time anything to do with legislation gets pulled into dol, we have the same argument. the RSPCA is evil, power hungry maniacs. i am getting a bit sick of it, but i will continue to say, i don't agree with the fact that they have a serious conflict of interest but someone needs to act, the state government has decided to give them that job, and they do it. are they perfect, no. do i believe they can fight dirty? yes if they think it is needed, as politicians can too. it is because they can be like a jrt after a rat that i think giving them the opportunity to go after puppy farmers is a good idea-they are waiting to be able to do it. (i'm not persoanlly 'up' on the debarking case you guys have mentioned, so there is no way i could ever make an educated comment on that)

BUT if that conflict of interest is your main bugbear then why not prepare a nicely worded and well researched document stating why this is the case and send it to honchos in police, and members of the upper and lower houses, even the mayor's office. nothing gets changed if you don't try, but if you come angry and full of hatred you won't be listened to. we know it is easier to get things done rather than undone, especially in victoria-which is the state we are talking about here, not nsw, qld, tasmania.

honestly, a lot of what you guys seem to be arguing about doesn't make sense when we are talking about the rally yesterday. no-one was trying to shut down breeding dogs, just trying to ensure that it occurs in an ethical way. nothing is set in stone and i'm sure that the organisers of the rally would have loved to have practical imput from registered ethical breeders to help define what constitutes unethical and how to shut it down. yes, there is the issue that all breeders may be targeted if the legislation is not drawn up carefully, a point i expressed to ted baillieu and he agreed. but the only way to ensure that the only 'breeders' we catch under the net of any new legislation is by talking and developing it so that it won't, that process should include registered breeders and their governing bodies, if they want to come to the party they are most welcome, even needed.

seriously, i've never heard people bashing regsitered breeders. i've only ever heard the fear from registered breeders that this is the case. perhaps i move in very educated circles? though i admit, i am frustrated that some people on dol get so angry and irritated about people buying from oet shops and don't seem to want to change that, in education or in legislation. it baffles me...

steve, i'm sorry, but if it takes your sense of justice to be offended to shut down these kinds of operations, then yes. i think a lot of people will have that be the cost. privacy is all very well but we can't fight secrecy and cruelty without dotting 'i's and crossing 't's. would you rather have your privacy and know that the ability to shut down those people in 'the back of boonies' are churning our poorly bred pups, with no thought for the bitch's and dog's welfare? i'm not sure, privacy is valued differently to everyone, but i reckon that having someone come and tick off your dogs conditions (which i don't doubt are fantastic, i'm not saying you don't care seriously for you animals and future homes) is a small price to ensure that sentient animals don't live in cages and unhealthy conditions (mental and physcial). though i'm sure we could have legislation that doesn't include someone ticking you off, as long as you abide by council and state laws, unless you are breeding more than a certain number of bitches/ or have a certain number of entire females-and in that case, a tick would be all that's needed...?

phew! sorry it is an essay!

[shortstep]

Oakway- that IS part of Oscars Law. For goodness sake, go and read what was being protested!!

Have you read it fully.

Are we talking about the same document the 117 page document.

ok shortstep. i'm officially confused. what is the 117 page document you're talking about? because a lot of what you think should be is actually included in the proposed oscar's law. we were asking for legislation to be drawn up, unless you are privvy to information that the rest of us don't know i think you may be confusing what we are proposing in victoria with what is in place in other states.

Sorry not me that said that. :>)

[Souff]

Serious question, what do you think that the pups raised in the establishment described by Souff miss out on?

Ok no takers so far, so I will wade in with some first hand observations of these dogs .....

They miss out on getting their claws painted with nail polish.

They miss out on wearing doggy pyjamas and other outfits modelled on humans clothing.

They miss out on diamante collars.

They miss out on fashion leads (although some of their show leads are very nice)

They miss out on sleeping in plastic four poster beds.

They miss out on having a fashion plate on the other end of the lead.

They miss out on having their own unique food bowl and have to suffer the indignity of having their s/s bowl taken away from them soon after eating, so it can be properly cleaned and ready for the next meal.

They miss out on being called 15 different cutesy-wutesy names that the owner changes in line with owners whims.

Some miss out on going to shows if they are not good enough; but that is no biggy for them anyway.

They dont miss out on being re-homed if that is appropriate, if the owner is the right candidate and can supply all that is given in this establishment and has a good track record.

They dont miss out on play, walks, swims, and great camaraderie with both humans and dogs.

They dont miss out on vaccinations and mainstream medication and veterinary treatment.

They dont miss out on massage and physiotherapy and herbal goodies and alternative therapies when needed.

They dont miss out on human interaction and learning discipline both from the pack leader (the human) and from the other dogs (as youngsters).

These are much loved and confident and valuable dogs, for many reasons.

But it is not the love that is lavished on many pet dogs today - a love that is almost smothering in some cases and is often stemming from the owners need to give love to something or someone, not necessarily the other way round.

This is a love that is combined with respect, both for the individual dog and for the breed and for the function of the breed ..... and all else that is this breed.

It is the healthy love and respect of a dog as a wonderful animal - a love that many dogs in pet homes today are missing out on.

Souff

[toy dog]

seriously, i've never heard people bashing registered breeders. i've only ever heard the fear from registered breeders that this is the case.

the RSPCA a couple of months ago had some sentences openly bashing registered breeders that wasn't correct like for instance about rhodesian ridgeback breeders and culling puppies so i wrote to them and said they are in the minority, and repeated sentences what was in the doco "pedigree dogs exposed" i wrote to them and said that it is different in OZ and get their facts straight, i wanted to use some of the puppy farms stuff on my own website. then had a go at them rubishing reg breeders- it made me very angry the ill-informed info on their site.....

they have taken it down!! i can't find it anywhere now, ....they invited me to use their puppy choosing articles and i said that i have had mine up for 12 years now way before anyone had a website and i will use my own articles thanks. most of what they have said is very similar to my articles not that im saying they copied them its just common sense whats in mine and whats in theirs.

but anyway, the rally wasn't about RSPCA it was about stopping puppy farms raising awareness in the community. most of the people at work don't care about such things but they'd all heard about the rally and what it was about. it was on the news and everywhere. so thats good. its one step at a time.

i don't know if the RSPCA are going to get their licensing thing through.....i have a problem with providing addresses as i don't want would be thieves to know where we live really. don't agree with that. not really fair. whereas a puppy farm would welcome it as then prospective buyers would know where they are so they can sell more dogs.

[pip1981]

Serious question, what do you think that the pups raised in the establishment described by Souff miss out on?

Ok no takers so far, so I will wade in with some first hand observations of these dogs .....

They miss out on getting their claws painted with nail polish.

They miss out on wearing doggy pyjamas and other outfits modelled on humans clothing.

They miss out on diamante collars.

They miss out on fashion leads (although some of their show leads are very nice)

They miss out on sleeping in plastic four poster beds.

They miss out on having a fashion plate on the other end of the lead.

They miss out on having their own unique food bowl and have to suffer the indignity of having their s/s bowl taken away from them soon after eating, so it can be properly cleaned and ready for the next meal.

They miss out on being called 15 different cutesy-wutesy names that the owner changes in line with owners whims.

Some miss out on going to shows if they are not good enough; but that is no biggy for them anyway.

They dont miss out on being re-homed if that is appropriate, if the owner is the right candidate and can supply all that is given in this establishment and has a good track record.

They dont miss out on play, walks, swims, and great camaraderie with both humans and dogs.

They dont miss out on vaccinations and mainstream medication and veterinary treatment.

They dont miss out on massage and physiotherapy and herbal goodies and alternative therapies when needed.

They dont miss out on human interaction and learning discipline both from the pack leader (the human) and from the other dogs (as youngsters).

These are much loved and confident and valuable dogs, for many reasons.

But it is not the love that is lavished on many pet dogs today - a love that is almost smothering in some cases and is often stemming from the owners need to give love to something or someone, not necessarily the other way round.

This is a love that is combined with respect, both for the individual dog and for the breed and for the function of the breed ..... and all else that is this breed.

It is the healthy love and respect of a dog as a wonderful animal - a love that many dogs in pet homes today are missing out on.

Souff

Crisovar directed this question to me, and I answered as best I could, he/she responded again, then upon reflection, I agreed with Crisovar in that in this particular establishment, the dogs may not be missing out on anything!

I don't think anyone would think a dog that didn't get your first list of 'stuff' was missing out on anything important, and for the record my dogs don't get them either (well, except maybe the names ).

I agree that some dogs in pet homes' needs aren't met, but that's not the discussion here, that's just you trying to make pet owners feel inferior to breeders. You probably took pleasure in writing that 'cheeky' list.

short-step- I was trying to 'get it', that's why I'm still here, but I give up, I'll leave it all to you breeders, because there's no way a pet-owner could even come close to knowing what is best for a dog. I never tried to insinuate that I 'knew best', in fact I mentioned quite a few times, that my knowledge was limited. I was trying to learn. Now I think I've learned why I usually stay away from controversy.

[Are You Serious Jo]

When all that is left is mass produced DD's everyone will be blaming the registered breeders for not fighting hard enough. Seriously, those who aren't breeders go ask the breeders you got your pups off what they think about having their addresses published and snap inspections by the RSPCA. For those who haven't been here very long there are a multitude of threads outlining where the RSPCA have bashed breeders, rescuers on here have bashed breeders, and the general public on here have bashed breeders. The only reason most have shut up is they are threatened with being banned.

It's not about whether you want to see registered breeders banned, it is about the consequences of new legislation that will see reg breeders walk away or be prevented from breeding. Open your eyes and think about follow on effects, why is that so hard to understand. If breeders are already telling you that they will walk away, why don't you take them seriously? That is a direct effect of trying to shut down puppy farms via new legislation. Think beyond your own agenda and use some brains, what is the best way to stop puppy farming, stop sales in pet shops, not try to regulate them out of existence. If any of you have read the new proposals, it does the opposite, it allows large scale puppy farming as long as the farms pay their money. They will still exist. You want to stop them, stop their income stream, they'll move onto something else.

[mita]

And there is no better feeling in the world than when a person who brought a puppy from you either brings it back to see you when it has matured or you catch up somewhere and the puppy/dog remembers exactly who you are and gets so excited to see you again, to me it is quite an emotional experience and shows that the puppy loved you and trusted you.

I am sure puppy farmers who produce huge amounts of puppies would never have that sort of experience, how could they possibly form any sort of a bond with the amount of puppies they breed.

Pam

Pam, if I had to single out the most essential thing that marks out a puppy-farmer....it's that a PF not only doesn't experience that bond you've described. But he/she wouldn't even know it exists. Yet, every piece of research shows that it's the critical early weeks bonding experience that a puppy must have, if he/she's to develop into a sound companion dog. It's not just psych fluff, it relates to how the puppy's brain gets hard-wired.

Even the military dogs breed up at Amberley, have this same close-human bond beginning, in the specially built puppy place on the base. Humans handle them from birth, with great affection. When old enough to let loose, the puppies have a great, supervised time on the base (swinging on ladies' skirts & not caring about jets roaring over). At 4 months, out they go to enjoy fostering in family life with all its activities, until it's time to return to the base to start military training. By that time, they've been beautifully socialised & fully capable of forming the strongest of bonds with a handler.

Edited September 20, 2010 by mita

[Steve]

Oakway- that IS part of Oscars Law. For goodness sake, go and read what was being protested!!

Have you read it fully.

Are we talking about the same document the 117 page document.

ok shortstep. i'm officially confused. what is the 117 page document you're talking about? because a lot of what you think should be is actually included in the proposed oscar's law. we were asking for legislation to be drawn up, unless you are privvy to information that the rest of us don't know i think you may be confusing what we are proposing in victoria with what is in place in other states.

seriously oakway. i'm happy to discuss these issues because they are important. but i can't do that unless i actually know what you're trying to say.

and generally, yes. every time anything to do with legislation gets pulled into dol, we have the same argument. the RSPCA is evil, power hungry maniacs. i am getting a bit sick of it, but i will continue to say, i don't agree with the fact that they have a serious conflict of interest but someone needs to act, the state government has decided to give them that job, and they do it. are they perfect, no. do i believe they can fight dirty? yes if they think it is needed, as politicians can too. it is because they can be like a jrt after a rat that i think giving them the opportunity to go after puppy farmers is a good idea-they are waiting to be able to do it. (i'm not persoanlly 'up' on the debarking case you guys have mentioned, so there is no way i could ever make an educated comment on that)

BUT if that conflict of interest is your main bugbear then why not prepare a nicely worded and well researched document stating why this is the case and send it to honchos in police, and members of the upper and lower houses, even the mayor's office. nothing gets changed if you don't try, but if you come angry and full of hatred you won't be listened to. we know it is easier to get things done rather than undone, especially in victoria-which is the state we are talking about here, not nsw, qld, tasmania.

honestly, a lot of what you guys seem to be arguing about doesn't make sense when we are talking about the rally yesterday. no-one was trying to shut down breeding dogs, just trying to ensure that it occurs in an ethical way. nothing is set in stone and i'm sure that the organisers of the rally would have loved to have practical imput from registered ethical breeders to help define what constitutes unethical and how to shut it down. yes, there is the issue that all breeders may be targeted if the legislation is not drawn up carefully, a point i expressed to ted baillieu and he agreed. but the only way to ensure that the only 'breeders' we catch under the net of any new legislation is by talking and developing it so that it won't, that process should include registered breeders and their governing bodies, if they want to come to the party they are most welcome, even needed.

seriously, i've never heard people bashing regsitered breeders. i've only ever heard the fear from registered breeders that this is the case. perhaps i move in very educated circles? though i admit, i am frustrated that some people on dol get so angry and irritated about people buying from oet shops and don't seem to want to change that, in education or in legislation. it baffles me...

steve, i'm sorry, but if it takes your sense of justice to be offended to shut down these kinds of operations, then yes. i think a lot of people will have that be the cost. privacy is all very well but we can't fight secrecy and cruelty without dotting 'i's and crossing 't's. would you rather have your privacy and know that the ability to shut down those people in 'the back of boonies' are churning our poorly bred pups, with no thought for the bitch's and dog's welfare? i'm not sure, privacy is valued differently to everyone, but i reckon that having someone come and tick off your dogs conditions (which i don't doubt are fantastic, i'm not saying you don't care seriously for you animals and future homes) is a small price to ensure that sentient animals don't live in cages and unhealthy conditions (mental and physcial). though i'm sure we could have legislation that doesn't include someone ticking you off, as long as you abide by council and state laws, unless you are breeding more than a certain number of bitches/ or have a certain number of entire females-and in that case, a tick would be all that's needed...?

phew! sorry it is an essay!

If I thought that there was a snowballs chance in hell of shutting down rotten breeders by small hobby breeders having to give up their rights Id be backing it and agreeing its worth the cost but it wont happen and the only ones it will stop breeding dogs is people who should be breeding dogs.

[toy dog]

what is the best way to stop puppy farming, stop sales in pet shops, not try to regulate them out of existence. If any of you have read the new proposals, it does the opposite, it allows large scale puppy farming as long as the farms pay their money. They will still exist. You want to stop them, stop their income stream, they'll move onto something else.

that is what is happening at Banksia sad to say. i agree 100%

[mita]

But Mita thats really the whole point for all of us - it cant be put into legislation and it offends my sense of justice to entertain the idea of some ranger coming into my home to see whether or not my birthing establishment is acceptable to them even though there is no reason why it wouldn't be. Should I have no rights to do what I want within my own home without getting a tick because someone somewhere breeds hundreds of puppies in a shipping container out the back of the boonies without giving a damn about their welfare?

So true, Steve, that one of the most critical things that forms the best of companion dogs, is an early genuine, loving bond with their carers. Which is a mental & emotional 'thing'. You're right...impossible to put into the terms required by a law.

Maybe we could separate out, basic requirements laid down by law to breed & sell puppies... from consumer education about what to look for in getting a puppy that's been well bred & raised. The public need some education re the critical mental & emotional learning young puppies need.

And to seek out only puppies raised under such a regime....as well as in humane settings, of course. But those 2 things go together. Which is why I would have loved that Rottie breeder I posted about, to get up at that rally & say exactly what I heard her say on an ABC radio program.

I don't have too many problems about breeders having to keep a health record of the basics. When my tib was used for testing the greyhounds in the GAP program (most came from v. responsible owners), I was impressed by the health record card that came with the greys. Very similar actually, to what I've kept for our pet dogs & cats (& for children, too!).

I also don't have any problems with the very sensible guidelines set out by the Canine Associations being translated into a checklist, that a breeder simply ticks off, as having been followed. And with permission given, for a representative of their Canine Association, to come visit. No schedule of visits, but just indication of willingness. This to my way of thinking, is self-management by the registered breeders themselves thro' the overview of their professional organisation

OK, we all know that there will still exist rogue breeders who are also registered. But if the UQ research is right, the majority registered breeders do an OK job in raising their puppies & controlling numbers of litters. That study found the big problem was with unregistered breeders, who are wild cards, totally outside any governing body with ethical guidelines, & not socialising their puppies well nor controlling numbers of litters.

Edited September 20, 2010 by mita

[Are You Serious Jo]

No way I'm going back into breeding in this climate, especially as my breed would be pugs. I'll just try to get a pet pug before they are outlawed.

[Fleuri]

Oh yeh Banskia looks like the dogs are in great conditions

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/backgroundbriefin...rowofcages2.htm

exactly look at the photos on prisoners for profit that some of the visitors took.

I would much rather get a pup from an ethical breeder that raised pups at home (bedroom or kitchen or where ever). Never from a large scale business that kept their dogs in cages as clean and as monited as they maybe. That is so sad, I hope these places will not become "the place" to get your pure breed pet dogs in the future. :D