Puppy Farm Awareness Rally

[Steve]

NOT TRUE - The ANKC is simply one stud registry.

I think their point was it has a code of ethics for its breeders

NOT TRUE approx 50% of all breeders have more than one breed Not true - only a small percentage of purebred breeders are at any time involved with showing their dogs.

Thats why they said usually and likely.

There are hundreds of reasons why a breeder may not want to open their breeding areas to the general public.

But breeders usually send puppy photos do they not? Of clean environment/whelping box?

Not True Puppy factories often have shop fronts.

They say why not to purchase pet store pups below

Oscars law is not what the government is planning. The RSPCA simply decided to hop onto this rally and subject to get attention as usual. As for registration with the ANKC, they have a duty of care to monitor their own members as well. If they have a code of ethics it is up to them to enforce them as much as the council laws officers should enforce current legislation.

All stud registries as far as I know have codes of ethics. the mini foxie club for example has a very tough code and they even travel to the end of the earth to look at dogs before they give the nod for them to be able to be used for breeding.

Some of the MDBA members are not ANKC breeders and they work under our codes which are much tougher than any for the ANKC!

And its not usually and likely its sometimes and why should some be tarred by these labels because they are not usually or likely ?

You cant interpret what they mean - its what they say and based on what they say I dont want to go over to rally against myself or those who I believe are doing a great job of breeding dogs. they havent said if you get nice photos of a clean whelping environment then thats O.K. and Im not even any where near sure that it is - on its own.

[Cosmolo]

So then Steve what you're really saying is that it is virtually impossible for average Joe to work out whether a breeder is ethical or not.

Personally this is precisely why i think raising awareness is so very important- if you don't raise awareness people won't ask any questions. Raise awareness, and at least people will start to think about what they need from a breeder.

[Nekhbet]

Some of the MDBA members are not ANKC breeders and they work under our codes which are much tougher than any for the ANKC!

but how many joe public know about the MDBA? Much fewer then those who even grasp the concept of pedigrees and what the ANKC is about. THey have to start somewhere. in encouraging the public to walk away from backyarders and farmers dont they?

And its not usually and likely its sometimes and why should some be tarred by these labels because they are not usually or likely ?

Because information has to start somewhere. Complicate the whole page and the average person throws it all in the too hard basket. OK so not everyone shows or just has one breed, they said that because thats what they consider an average guide. The average pet puppy purchaser who would chase a farmed/pet store pup is after just a pet, not a show prospect or working dog obviously. So it's aimed at them and hence has to be simplified.

As for picking this apart why dont knowlegable, ethical ANKC breeders contact and help those at Oscars Law post out what it 'correct' then. They're trying to help, and instead of simply focussing on the bad why not join and educate as well as use their high publicity to an advantage? As you can see the website is trying to go on the right track, buy from a registered ethical breeder or rescue a pound dog.

[Dame Aussie]

Some of the MDBA members are not ANKC breeders and they work under our codes which are much tougher than any for the ANKC!

but how many joe public know about the MDBA? Much fewer then those who even grasp the concept of pedigrees and what the ANKC is about. THey have to start somewhere. in encouraging the public to walk away from backyarders and farmers dont they?

And its not usually and likely its sometimes and why should some be tarred by these labels because they are not usually or likely ?

Because information has to start somewhere. Complicate the whole page and the average person throws it all in the too hard basket. OK so not everyone shows or just has one breed, they said that because thats what they consider an average guide. The average pet puppy purchaser who would chase a farmed/pet store pup is after just a pet, not a show prospect or working dog obviously. So it's aimed at them and hence has to be simplified.

As for picking this apart why dont knowlegable, ethical ANKC breeders contact and help those at Oscars Law post out what it 'correct' then. They're trying to help, and instead of simply focussing on the bad why not join and educate as well as use their high publicity to an advantage? As you can see the website is trying to go on the right track, buy from a registered ethical breeder or rescue a pound dog.

I have to agree, we have to start somewhere. I can understand what Steve and others are saying, of course, but I fear if we don't do something soon this will get even worse.

We have to stop people buying from pet shops and farms.

I'll be there on Sunday, looking forward to meeting some Dolers

[Julie R]

All stud registries as far as I know have codes of ethics. the mini foxie club for example has a very tough code and they even travel to the end of the earth to look at dogs before they give the nod for them to be able to be used for breeding.

Some of the MDBA members are not ANKC breeders and they work under our codes which are much tougher than any for the ANKC!

And its not usually and likely its sometimes and why should some be tarred by these labels because they are not usually or likely ?

You cant interpret what they mean - its what they say and based on what they say I dont want to go over to rally against myself or those who I believe are doing a great job of breeding dogs. they havent said if you get nice photos of a clean whelping environment then thats O.K. and Im not even any where near sure that it is - on its own.

Hi Steve

But if you don't attend how can you know for sure what the intention is.

I firmly believe that the people who are organising this rally do not have any prejudice against pure bred dogs or cross bred dogs. They only want to see that dogs, ALL breeds of dogs x breeds included are treated humanely. I do not think for one minute that there is anything that will used be against ANKC registered breeders. I have gone to their website and read the FAQ page of Oscars Law and they actually support ANKC registered dogs and breeders. To my knowledge and belief they are just against animal cruelty and puppy mills/farms that are abusing these poor dogs that are committed to a life of producing litter after litter until they can no longer reproduce. I honestly cannot see the harm in bringing to the Governments attention that the legislations that are already in place to STOP this, and the government/ RSPCA are not using these laws to put an end to this cruelty . Time and time again people are being allowed to treat dogs/animals with contempt and for pure profit.

You wouldn’t allow or consider doing this or allowing this to happen to one of your own dogs that you had bred and sold, so why should anyone be allowed to get away with this?? The scary part of it all is that how do anyone of us know for sure that one of our dogs that that we have bred have not ended up in one of these horrific puppy farms. The only way anyone can be sure this doesn’t happen it to de-sex every puppy before they are sold... DO we all want this to happen, and are we all prepare to put our puppies through this, and are we are prepared for a legislation to enforce this.??? ?

Pam

[Steve]

I know the people who are organising this have great intentions just as I know people who have been putting lists together for years to tell people how to choose an ethical breeder in the main have believed that what they have presented to be a way of being able to choose a good breeder is the way to do it.That's been driven by propoganda from animal rights and a stud registry which has a monopoly on registering dogs and dog shows.

Im sorry I dont go with "we have to start somewhere" if that somewhere is going to be bringing breeders who should not be under the gun within the firing line.

Im not saying that Jo Public should find it almost impossible to select a good breeder Im saying that the criteria which is presented as to how they should, actually causes part of the problem and it puts people who want to stand united with them against animal cruelty who are some of the best and most ethical in this country into the pit with people who breed puppies without care for their welfare or that of the breeding dogs.

If we are protesting about and rallying to raise public awareness of puppy farmers and unscrupulous breeders then Ill be there with bells on but the problem is that what one person thinks is a puppy farmer and therefore what they are rallying against is different for everyone because the somewhere we should have started from should have been to define puppy farmer so when we unite to fight puppy farmers we know we are all fighting against the same thing and then if we are going to tell people how to decide on where to buy a puppy from and be telling them how to spot someone who is rotten it shouldnt eliminate most of the breeders who do it well.

Is it someone who breeds more than x amount of puppies? what is x?

Is it someone who wont allow you to come to their home to see the way the puppies are reared?

Is it someone who owns more than x amount of dogs? what is x ?

Is it someone who doesnt breed ANKC registered purebred dogs?

Is it someone who doesnt show their dogs?

Is it someone who owns more than one breed?

Is it someone who breeds dogs for profit?

Is it someone who sells puppies to pet shops or agents?

is it someone who sees their dogs the way any other farmer does - as stock ?

Is it someone who breeds lots of puppies in substandard conditions? Define sub standard conditions.

Is it someone who breeds any puppies in sub standard conditions? Define substandard conditions.

Is it someone who breeds cross bred dogs?

Is it someone who doesnt test their dogs before they breed them?

Is it someone who doesnt take back what they breed if there is a problem?

Is it someone who doesnt provide adequate vet treatment?

Is it someone who doesnt supply adequate nutrition?

Is it someone who doesnt provide adequate environmental enrichment?

Is it someone who doesnt socialise their puppies?

Is it someone who breeds for the wrong reasons ? Define wrong reasons?

Is it someone who advertises in the newspaper or on the net?

If I were rallying to raise awareness of puppy farmers I would be beating a drum against anyone who breeds a puppy in substandard conditions

no matter what they breed, why they breed it or how many they breed,how often they breed, where they advertise it, where they sell it,whether they let me come to their home or not.

Why did Clover Moore's bid to stop puppy farmers and sales to pet shops fail? Why did people and organisations you would have expected would agree

with her and push for her bill to go through stand against her? In my opinion You guys are making the same mistake and I just hope your rally to raise puppy farm awareness raises awareness of what my definition of a puppy farmer is and not what some others obviously think is a puppy farmer.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Steve

[Steve]

Hi Steve

But if you don't attend how can you know for sure what the intention is.

I firmly believe that the people who are organising this rally do not have any prejudice against pure bred dogs or cross bred dogs. They only want to see that dogs, ALL breeds of dogs x breeds included are treated humanely. I do not think for one minute that there is anything that will used be against ANKC registered breeders. I have gone to their website and read the FAQ page of Oscars Law and they actually support ANKC registered dogs and breeders. To my knowledge and belief they are just against animal cruelty and puppy mills/farms that are abusing these poor dogs that are committed to a life of producing litter after litter until they can no longer reproduce. I honestly cannot see the harm in bringing to the Governments attention that the legislations that are already in place to STOP this, and the government/ RSPCA are not using these laws to put an end to this cruelty . Time and time again people are being allowed to treat dogs/animals with contempt and for pure profit.

You wouldn't allow or consider doing this or allowing this to happen to one of your own dogs that you had bred and sold, so why should anyone be allowed to get away with this?? The scary part of it all is that how do anyone of us know for sure that one of our dogs that that we have bred have not ended up in one of these horrific puppy farms. The only way anyone can be sure this doesn't happen it to de-sex every puppy before they are sold... DO we all want this to happen, and are we all prepare to put our puppies through this, and are we are prepared for a legislation to enforce this.??? ?

Pam

So for you the rally is to tell the government that the RSPCA and the government are not using laws which are already in place to put an end to this cruelty ? Even though there is a major push on for new laws to be introduced to further regulate breeders because they say there are no laws already in place to adequately stop this?

Is this what everyone else thinks the purpose of the rally is? Is it probable that this WILL be the outcome to the rally? In my opinion this is the least likely outcome of the rally.

[Steve]

From Oscars law website - in letter to the Victorian Premier. Mr Brumby, I request an urgent amendment to the Legislation. I urge you to please make your decision based on the animals who we as a society have a duty of care for and pass Oscar's Law.

Pam if the intention is only to tell them to enforce laws they already have why the hell do you think the whole thing is called OSCARS Law?

The very basis of the whole thing is to push for NEW laws not to enforce those which are already there!

If you support the rally you effectively support NEW laws!

Edited September 10, 2010 by Steve

[Steve]

From the RSPCA website- Join the RSPCA on the steps of parliament house to advocate for tougher laws and regulations to be put in place.

I think you're wrong Pam. If it were to enforce laws already in place Id be there with you.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Steve

[oakway]

From the RSPCA website- Join the RSPCA on the steps of parliament house to advocate for tougher laws and regulations to be put in place.

I think you're wrong Pam. If it were to enforce laws already in place Id be there with you.

If it was to enforce the laws already in place I'd be there too.

[MavericksMission]

Bump

[Puppoochi]

OMG this thread has made me feel ill. I was all for the rally, now I'm all confused.

IMO, Companion animals should be treated as such, be it 1 or 10, "breeders" and/or pets, one must provide adequate care to ensure that the dog's physical and mental needs are met to ensure it to be a good companion, and that the animals are well fed, have clean water always available and live in a clean comfortable and warm condition without abuse. If one was to breed the animal, one must do testing that is available pertaining to the breed, be it pure or cross. And not to breed an animal to the degree that it is detrimental to the animal's health.

If this is what I'm rallying for, then I'll be there.

[WreckitWhippet]

From the RSPCA website- Join the RSPCA on the steps of parliament house to advocate for tougher laws and regulations to be put in place.

I think you're wrong Pam. If it were to enforce laws already in place Id be there with you.

If it was to enforce the laws already in place I'd be there too.

Yep I'd be all for enforcing what currently exists...

But I know that's not the case and supporting such events is just helping to bang the nail in my own breeder coffin. When the RSPCA and the likes can come up with something that is not to my detriment, or anyone who breeds dogs with due care and consideration, then please let me know about it.

[Guardienne]

From the RSPCA website- Join the RSPCA on the steps of parliament house to advocate for tougher laws and regulations to be put in place.

I think you're wrong Pam. If it were to enforce laws already in place Id be there with you.

If it was to enforce the laws already in place I'd be there too.

Yep I'd be all for enforcing what currently exists...

But I know that's not the case and supporting such events is just helping to bang the nail in my own breeder coffin. When the RSPCA and the likes can come up with something that is not to my detriment, or anyone who breeds dogs with due care and consideration, then please let me know about it.

Re the quote in red above, to put it in context you need the rest of the quote....

It actually says

"Now is your chance to be a voice for the dogs living a life of misery in Victoria's puppy factories.

Join the RSPCA along with many animal welfare organisations on the steps of Parliament House to advocate for tougher laws and regulations to be put in place. Help us send a strong message to the State's political leaders that factory farming should not be tolerated."

Not once anywhere have I seen any intent of changing laws on how dogs are currently kept by breeders or establishments just the intent to change legislation to outlaw large scale/mass production of puppies. But if I'm wrong I'm happy to stand corrected.

From Oscars Law

"Now is your chance to be a voice for the dogs imprisoned in Victoria's puppy factories. Help send a strong message to the State's political leaders that we will not tolerate the factory farming of our companion animals.

Join us on the steps of Parliament House and stand up for all the dogs on puppy factories and support Oscars Law"

The only legislation Oscars Law itself talks about changing is Quote:

"•Abolish the mass production of dogs. Make factory farming of dogs illegal

•Ban the sale of animals from pet shops, online and in print media"

Each of these campaigns describe puppy factories as mass producing facilities.

People are even saying they don't want regulations changed... From Debra Tranter herself on Prisoners for Profit website:

"How is increasing the fine going to help the dogs Joe Helper? $2400 the cost of one litter of puppies-so what!

Mr Helper, we do not want more regulations that the local Council ranger simply refuses to enforce or doesn’t have time to enforce. We want puppy factories abolished. Stop telling us how our pets can be kept, bred and sold."

From what I've read throughout these campaigns "ethical" breeders have been supported and even promoted..... people are being told to go to shelters, rescue or ethical registered breeders to purchase their dogs.

I'll be at the rally with my ex puppy farm breeding girl and hope to see as many likeminded people there as possible

[toy dog]

OMG this thread has made me feel ill. I was all for the rally, now I'm all confused.

IMO, Companion animals should be treated as such, be it 1 or 10, "breeders" and/or pets, one must provide adequate care to ensure that the dog's physical and mental needs are met to ensure it to be a good companion, and that the animals are well fed, have clean water always available and live in a clean comfortable and warm condition without abuse. If one was to breed the animal, one must do testing that is available pertaining to the breed, be it pure or cross. And not to breed an animal to the degree that it is detrimental to the animal's health.

If this is what I'm rallying for, then I'll be there.

hi poodiful1, it is all about puppy farms and stopping farming of animals. i am going to be there because of Debra Tranter being a guest speaker. i fully support her and what she does for the dogs of farms. been talking to her for a few years now and want to finally meet her in person.

[toy dog]

oscar's law was created by Debra and having a talk to her personally she is well aware of ethical registered breeders, i can't speak for Debra but she is aware of all of us she is against puppy farms as obviously her website "prisoners for profit" states as well and we are all trying to stop puppy farms.

i know of alot of people that are trying to stop farms and i am not so much a fan of tougher laws or regulations because how much tougher can they be? there is already a code of practice that is strict, the farms are complying with all that legislation as they keep stating to whoever will listen and also the council who they are in bed with, look at the one near us in Gippsland which is the largest in Australia. they are complying and RSPCA and authorities can't touch them because of legislation in place. these places needs to be closed down in my view so thats what i will be there for anyway.

also it is to get awareness out in the community not to buy from petshops who get their supply of pups from these farms such as the one near us.....many people still don't know they are supporting puppy farms by buying a pup in the shop window. so a rally will raise awareness of this....

Edited September 14, 2010 by toy dog

[toy dog]

having said all that i get what some people are saying about RSPCA, on their website they do state about "pedigree dogs exposed" and what some breeders do which they think is wrong, sort of like anti-registered breeder talk, i got offended by some of their stuff they had on the site. so i wrote to them and they state that the information is correct and its not!! (being in the dogworld our family for over 25 years). but you can't tell them! they stated that it is wrong for breeders of rhodesian ridgebacks to cull their litters. so i wrote back to the girl and told her it is also wrong for greyhounds to be put down after their usefulness in racing and what are they going to do about that? it is more widespread than ridgeback breeders who are in the minority. why don't they concentrate their resources on something more widespread. i have to witness this at my vets everytime i go there and it does upset me.

Edited September 14, 2010 by toy dog

[toy dog]

do you know i was driving around yesterday in the Casey shire area in Victoria and right at the back down the back gravel roads it had a sign that i turned around the car for and it read "intensive dog breeding establishments are permitted in this area"......got me obviously they will allow farms to be set up in that area and it shouldn't be the case.

this is a reason why we need to have alot more rallies to raise awareness that also shires can't advocate these types of businesses.....there needs to alot more education on puppy farms, i found it disgusting that i saw that sign and i was really shocked that a shire would support such a thing.

Edited September 14, 2010 by toy dog

[Natsu chan]

In all honesty I can't see the councils giving up the money they make from these sort of places and judging by the results of the talks Steve went to I really can't see the proposed bill affecting anyone other than registered breeders of one sort or another. Just the way that it is proposed that puppy farms should be defined and what powers the RSPCA want are enough to show that. Other wise I too would be all for this.

Toy dog the area you're talking about has been there along time and my understanding was it was put in place initially to provide an area for Greyhound trainers and breeders and boarding kennels away from the residential areas. From what I know of the people who live there most of them are either boarding kennels, involved in greyhounds or are kennel club breeders/owners. I've gone up there regularly and I'm always stunned by how quiet it is!

[CJay]

Obviously there is a problem with the legaslation and the way it is being carried out, sorry but i don't have any answers.

From what i've read, if this bill passes and you are a registered breed doing the right thing then you won't be affected, so why worry?

However if you are a puppy farm or a registered breeder doing the wrong thing, then there will be trouble.

I think the RSPCA may be going to lengths to stop the breeding of all dogs, purebred or not, i can't see this happening, nor it working. This is where the registered breeders who are concerned about being able to continue breeding need to work together with Oscars law and the RSPCA to come to a comprimise.

I won't be attending the rally as i'm in a different state, but something has to be done and if Oscar's Law is the only thing being done then i'll support it's proposal.