Mouthing

[aussielover]

The water spray is only bad if he actually *sees* you with the water bottle.

The idea of it is to startle the pup- but they don't really know where it comes from- they think it is just coming out of nowhere!

Stopping play was enough for my puppy to learn, but others are a bit more persistant.

do you have a time out area (eg the laundary or a small room?)

My puppy found outside very exciting so putting her out there didn;t really work!

[jessie86]

The water spray is only bad if he actually *sees* you with the water bottle.

The idea of it is to startle the pup- but they don't really know where it comes from- they think it is just coming out of nowhere!

Stopping play was enough for my puppy to learn, but others are a bit more persistant.

do you have a time out area (eg the laundary or a small room?)

My puppy found outside very exciting so putting her out there didn;t really work!

You're right outside is full of toys so it probably isn't a good idea putting him there. He is only nuts at night time, as he sleeps during the day a lot. We find taking him outside for walk even just around the block is helping, and the only way we can settle him is by picking him up on our laps and soothing him - however he is soon going to be close to 30kg and this won't be an option then!!

So if we spray him without him seeing the water sprayer is it still affective, we orignally thought putting him in the laundry for time out might be good, however that's where he sleeps, so I was a bit hesitant about punishing him in a place that he is very good in (he has never toileted in the laundry, ever and goes straight to sleep when we put him in there for bed time).

[Nekhbet]

siks how do you leash correct an 8 week old pup.

I also forgot to mention if you cause them discomfort as soon as they mouth you the dog is never going to learn bite inhibition.

As soon as they bite down to cause pain or discomfort I growl and then it's on the lead for 5min.

If they learn that any mouthing causes unpleasantness they stop. I dont have to growl at the dog or time out, I deal with it then and there.

I have used the thumb under the tongue for years and have never terrorised a pup. In fact it stops them in their tracks and makes them think about what they have done. You dont go running after the pup, drop tackle it and try and jam your hand in its mouth. while interacting if the dog puts its mouth on me, I stop put the thumb under the tongue and totally ignore the dog while I apply some pressure. Yes they carry on like pork chops sometimes but they think wow OK that was not worth the effort. When they play nicely they get rewarded for being nice and controlled. How are they not learning bite inhibition? I own 3 working breeds, 2 working trained dogs, all taught this way and no one dares lay a tooth on me no matter what is happening. They learned from a young age and it stuck forever.

[Nekhbet]

1) Yelping or screaming high pitched OUCH like another puppy

2) Shoving another toy in his mouth

3) Saying 'NOOOO' in a really gruff voice

4) Tapping him on the nose and saying 'NOOOO'

5) Tried spraying some water on him (absolute last resort, which we only did twice)

6) Isolation. - putting him outside.

7) Picking him up and holding him till he calms down.

1) you have a prey driven dog, you will excite him further

2) You still need to provide a consequence and a clear NO to the dog. What do we learn if we go BITE-TOY ... reward?

3) Unless you have conditioned your dog to what a word means you can scream BANANA PUDDING at your dog for hours and get no result

4) Dont smack your dog. There is no point and the bridge on the muzzle can be VERY sensitive. Also if you want to continue down this road be prepared down the track for the dog to turn and 'smack' you back with a mouth full of teeth

5) Water is OK if he gets it

6) I find pack separation for something the dog does instinctively rather unpleasant. From the pups point of view its terrible

7) why are you picking him up for. He doesnt need a cuddle he needs a reprimand

Bite the bullet, harden up and when your dog bites you either scruff and hold or thumb under the tongue. It's nicer then half the things you've tried already. But please never 'tap' your dog on the face EVER there is no need. THe only time I have is instinctively when a dog lunged out to bite me and copped it on the side of the muzzle (it was that or lose the tip of my nose) Apart from that it does your dog-human relationship no favours

[siks3]

siks how do you leash correct an 8 week old pup.

I also forgot to mention if you cause them discomfort as soon as they mouth you the dog is never going to learn bite inhibition.

As soon as they bite down to cause pain or discomfort I growl and then it's on the lead for 5min.

If they learn that any mouthing causes unpleasantness they stop. I dont have to growl at the dog or time out, I deal with it then and there.

I have used the thumb under the tongue for years and have never terrorised a pup. In fact it stops them in their tracks and makes them think about what they have done. You dont go running after the pup, drop tackle it and try and jam your hand in its mouth. while interacting if the dog puts its mouth on me, I stop put the thumb under the tongue and totally ignore the dog while I apply some pressure. Yes they carry on like pork chops sometimes but they think wow OK that was not worth the effort. When they play nicely they get rewarded for being nice and controlled. How are they not learning bite inhibition? I own 3 working breeds, 2 working trained dogs, all taught this way and no one dares lay a tooth on me no matter what is happening. They learned from a young age and it stuck forever.

Fit a buckle collar and put your finger underneath it and give it a good quick flick.

It stops them and they soon learn the meaning of the word no

[corvus]

Bite the bullet, harden up and when your dog bites you either scruff and hold or thumb under the tongue.

How do you figure that's a nice method that doesn't terrorise puppies when you say yourself that they'll carry on and another poster recently had this method result in the puppy biting harder? If I choose a confrontational method, I had better make sure I'm ready to escalate it further than the puppy is. It's a slippery slope IMO. If the puppy hurts me enough to make me withdraw reflexively I've taught my pup that if it doesn't like something it need only bite hard enough to make it stop.

We had success with our biter asking for sits before he got a chance to latch on, then asking for a slow heel to the nearest toy. He would try very hard to do exactly as he was asked. It gave us an opportunity to reward him for following directions and save our ankles in the process. AFAIK puppies learn most of their bite inhibition while still with their litter mates. I like Dunbar's method of finishing it off with shaping. It works IME. As long as the criteria keeps changing so pup doesn't get settled with one level of jaw pressure.

[Nekhbet]

How do you figure that's a nice method that doesn't terrorise puppies when you say yourself that they'll carry on and another poster recently had this method result in the puppy biting harder?

pups carry on at the drop of a hat. Terrorising is causing permanent psychological harm, a pup whinging for a bit or throwing a tantrum is nothing to be avoided. They do it with other dogs, their mother or the vet trying to give them a needle because they dont know how to just accept handling. As for biting harder, if you have not done it hard or long enough the pup sees it has a game and carries on.

AFAIK puppies learn most of their bite inhibition while still with their litter mates. I like Dunbar's method of finishing it off with shaping. It works IME. As long as the criteria keeps changing so pup doesn't get settled with one level of jaw pressure.

I dont like Dunbars method. Dogs learn faster when its yes or no, not little by little and end up with an adolescent dog that still puts its mouth on you or your children. And most pups dont learn enough bite inhibition for human levels from their litter, most pups are happy to put their mouths on you when you get them so obviously this is not the case. I suppose it's all up to how much you're willing to tolerate from your dog.

If the puppy hurts me enough to make me withdraw reflexively I've taught my pup that if it doesn't like something it need only bite hard enough to make it stop.

I'd never recommend this. If you're happy with this fine but this can backfire majorly.

[Miranda]

How do you figure that's a nice method that doesn't terrorise puppies when you say yourself that they'll carry on and another poster recently had this method result in the puppy biting harder?

pups carry on at the drop of a hat. Terrorising is causing permanent psychological harm, a pup whinging for a bit or throwing a tantrum is nothing to be avoided. They do it with other dogs, their mother or the vet trying to give them a needle because they dont know how to just accept handling. As for biting harder, if you have not done it hard or long enough the pup sees it has a game and carries on.

AFAIK puppies learn most of their bite inhibition while still with their litter mates. I like Dunbar's method of finishing it off with shaping. It works IME. As long as the criteria keeps changing so pup doesn't get settled with one level of jaw pressure.

I dont like Dunbars method. Dogs learn faster when its yes or no, not little by little and end up with an adolescent dog that still puts its mouth on you or your children. And most pups dont learn enough bite inhibition for human levels from their litter, most pups are happy to put their mouths on you when you get them so obviously this is not the case. I suppose it's all up to how much you're willing to tolerate from your dog.

If the puppy hurts me enough to make me withdraw reflexively I've taught my pup that if it doesn't like something it need only bite hard enough to make it stop.

I'd never recommend this. If you're happy with this fine but this can backfire majorly.

I've bred and raised a lot of puppies and I must say that I completely agree with Nekhbet.

[corvus]

How do you figure that's a nice method that doesn't terrorise puppies when you say yourself that they'll carry on and another poster recently had this method result in the puppy biting harder?

pups carry on at the drop of a hat. Terrorising is causing permanent psychological harm, a pup whinging for a bit or throwing a tantrum is nothing to be avoided. They do it with other dogs, their mother or the vet trying to give them a needle because they dont know how to just accept handling.

:rolleyes: I avoid provoking puppies to throw a tantrum and have found it to be not very difficult and appears to have had no ill effects. I figure, why provoke one if you don't have to? They learn just as well without the tantrums and I don't have to find a way to protect my skin from raging puppy tanty.

As for biting harder, if you have not done it hard or long enough the pup sees it has a game and carries on.

As a game? Isn't the point that it's aversive? How can you tell whether the puppy bites harder because he thinks it's fun or because he is responding aggressively to an aversive stimulus?

I dont like Dunbars method. Dogs learn faster when its yes or no, not little by little and end up with an adolescent dog that still puts its mouth on you or your children. And most pups dont learn enough bite inhibition for human levels from their litter, most pups are happy to put their mouths on you when you get them so obviously this is not the case. I suppose it's all up to how much you're willing to tolerate from your dog.

A lot of people don't like Dunbar's method, and a lot of people do. It probably is mostly about how much you're willing to tolerate from your dog. As it happens, though, shaping is pretty effective and gentle way to teach or modify behaviour in dogs. I'm less interested in fast and more interested in gentle, especially with puppies, but that's my preference. I find shaping to be pretty effective and quick once I got the hang of it.

If the puppy hurts me enough to make me withdraw reflexively I've taught my pup that if it doesn't like something it need only bite hard enough to make it stop.

I'd never recommend this. If you're happy with this fine but this can backfire majorly.

I'm not happy with this and that's why I don't do it. That's the point. I think confrontational methods are playing with fire for this exact reason. I don't want to accidentally teach a dog that if they want their own way they just have to keep escalating and eventually they will get it.

[Nekhbet]

As a game? Isn't the point that it's aversive? How can you tell whether the puppy bites harder because he thinks it's fun or because he is responding aggressively to an aversive stimulus?

if it's not an aversive to the pup it becomes a game. They bite down you squeeze harder and they go 'oh cripes better stop!", thats what fixes it. Bad behaviour = consequence.

I see it all the time, pups that are not handled enough or not taught that their bad behaviour has consequences and then they're a few months old, full of themselves and thrash like a manical crocodile in a death roll when all you want to do is look in their ear or mouth. Or the owners come to you covered in scratches and bite marks because the dog is more interested in them as a tug toy.

It probably is mostly about how much you're willing to tolerate from your dog.

Honestly? If you think it is OK for a dog to put their teeth on you at any time you have rocks in your head. Especially one that may have aggressive tendencies. I find teeth on humans quite a serious thing and I want it settled quickly and in a long lasting method, I understand what shaping is but frankly I think for this type of problem it's good for people who have a lot of time on their hands and dont mind having teeth marks for a while longer. It doesnt mean you have to be mean to your dog, just firm about what is acceptable and what is not. Corvus, it is ok from your perspective as they are your dogs and you can live with their behaviour. But a family with kids, or dog owners with a large mouthy gun dog can find it distressing and intolerable very quickly. Children can be frightened by larger puppies grabbing them or biting them, heck even adults have come to me in tears with their puppies. I remember one beagle pup, shredded the poor owner and then tried to latch onto the vet. It wasnt frightened at all it stood there like "come on, give me a vaccine", a couple of minutes with me and some liver treats for being good it saw the light of what was acceptable. It walked out with a wagging tail too so obviously there was no harm done. We seem to forget dogs are strong, predatory creatures with big sets of teeth and innate instincts that we need to shape and control in order to make them fit in with our family life. Remember this is an animal that potentially has no problems in taking a chunk out of you when it sees fit, so why do we pander over them like they're made of glass. Again, you should NOT be cruel to your dog EVER or smack them, shout or chase them off aggressively, but by jeez applying pressure under the tongue to make sure the little upstart doesnt put holes in you again isn't going to hurt anyone.

[poodlefan]

Corvus:

AFAIK puppies learn most of their bite inhibition while still with their litter mates.

Most, but not all. Those puppies are growing, their jaws are becoming stronger and most importantly, their littermates don't discourage mouthing just mouthing that's too hard.

Despite what we may or may not tolerate from our dogs, we don't live in a social vacuum.

A dog that hasn't been taught that all mouthing is unacceptable may mouth a child or a stranger and its behaviour will almsot inevitably be misinterpreted and potentially reacted against somewhat violently.

We owe it to our dogs to keep them safe. Some pups are persistent hard mouthers living with families that have neither the time nor the expertise to shape alternate behaviours. Furthermore shaping an alternative doesn't teach the dog that mouthing is unacceptable.

That's a lesson that all dogs need to learn IMO.

[corvus]

A dog that hasn't been taught that all mouthing is unacceptable may mouth a child or a stranger and its behaviour will almsot inevitably be misinterpreted and potentially reacted against somewhat violently.

Not a challenge, but I'm genuinely curious. Have you or anyone else ever seen that happen? I know a couple of adult mouthers and they do it very occasionally, very gently, and only to people they know very well. Kivi is one of them. He is unbelievably gentle when he does it, and it's usually coupled with near social ecstasy. Given there's only a couple of people in the world he adores enough to be ecstatic to see on occasion and they feel the same way about him, I never saw a need to stop it. I've never seen him mouth a stranger since he grew out of puppy behaviour. He licks strangers, but that's it. I know another dog that is about 6 years old that is the same. A very different temperament, but mouths extremely gently when in social ecstasy, and the only ones that get that treatment are the immediate family. I know a poodle cross thing at the dog park that mouths strangers in play. She's not especially gentle. I was quite surprised when she did it to me. I'd never seen anything like it before. I'd be interested to know how common it is.

[poodlefan]

A dog that hasn't been taught that all mouthing is unacceptable may mouth a child or a stranger and its behaviour will almsot inevitably be misinterpreted and potentially reacted against somewhat violently.

Not a challenge, but I'm genuinely curious. Have you or anyone else ever seen that happen? I know a couple of adult mouthers and they do it very occasionally, very gently, and only to people they know very well. Kivi is one of them. He is unbelievably gentle when he does it, and it's usually coupled with near social ecstasy. Given there's only a couple of people in the world he adores enough to be ecstatic to see on occasion and they feel the same way about him, I never saw a need to stop it. I've never seen him mouth a stranger since he grew out of puppy behaviour. He licks strangers, but that's it. I know another dog that is about 6 years old that is the same. A very different temperament, but mouths extremely gently when in social ecstasy, and the only ones that get that treatment are the immediate family. I know a poodle cross thing at the dog park that mouths strangers in play. She's not especially gentle. I was quite surprised when she did it to me. I'd never seen anything like it before. I'd be interested to know how common it is.

I'd rate it as not uncommon. We've seen a few at the dog club whose owners have failed to teach bite inhibition/no mouthing to. One was a 10 month old Lab that grabbed hands and arms when excited and grabbed them hard. There have been a few dogs other that have mouthed when excited also. Most were gundogs.

I'm sure rescuers could fill a book with dogs that haven't been taught these lessons. Its what sees some dogs surrendered in the first place.

[Cosmolo]

I see it VERY regularly Corvus.

I am with Nekhbet on this one too- by the time you have shaped the mouthing away, the kids are terrified of the dog, the adults are avoiding him or giving him everything he wants etc. Mouthing is one behaviour that needs to be stopped quickly and definitively IMO.

Dogs need to learn bite inhibition- but NOT on people. 3 of my dogs have lovely soft mouths- and all were taught NEVER to put their mouth on people. 1 other has a great mouth but we adopted her as a 12 month old and the other is an ex working cattle dog with quite a hard mouth generally but also taught never to mouth people.

[Kavik]

When I worked in a dog daycare we regularly had dogs that mouthed people. Adults not just pups. Lots of Labs asd Lab x Poodles and Spaniel x Poodles.