Remote Training Collars

[corvus]

It goes to Pack - respect; trust; etc.

I'm not sure if you mean positively or negatively. Whichever you mean, my question would always be "how do you know?". Not as a challenge, but as an examination of the evidence whatever it may be. I'm always wary of confirmation biases.

[Yesmaam]

So do choker chains.....

I don't think e-collars need be extreme, but they have the capacity to be extreme.

Edited September 9, 2010 by Yesmaam

[Staranais]

We were going to have a discussion about e-collars, maybe scheduled for next week, was it, Staranais?

Yes we were - but after exams perhaps? Sorry!

Aversive learning is very powerful and suppresses behaviour and creates inhibitions. Maybe that's what you want, and that's fine, but to me it's a tricky thing to get the level just right so that whatever suppression or inhibition I create doesn't bleed into other areas. That's not to say it can't be fixed if I make a mistake, but if I'm not looking for the mistakes, I probably won't notice them. IME even relatively mild aversives tend to have side-effects. Either you are comfortable with that or not. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer.

I would challenge you to live with my dog without creating any inhibitions, Corvus. You'd spend so much time managing & redirecting her inappropriate behaviour & shoving treats down her gob to try to maintain the good alternatives, that I don't believe you'd have any time left to have much fun with her (eta - or to work her, which is why I got her in the first place).

Having said that, I wouldn't personally use ecollar for mouthing during playing - easier & better to set the rules of the game to be "if you want to play with me, you don't mouth me hard". Simple!

Edited September 9, 2010 by Staranais

[corvus]

I would challenge you to live with my dog without creating any inhibitions, Corvus. You'd spend so much time managing & redirecting her inappropriate behaviour & shoving treats down her gob to try to maintain the good alternatives, that I don't believe you'd have any time left to have much fun with her (eta - or to work her, which is why I got her in the first place).

Haha, the irony is, I've said more than once that if I didn't use rewards to teach Erik appropriate default behaviours, I'd spend most of my time UNteaching him things I didn't want him to learn and we wouldn't have time for the fun stuff. Considering neither of us have tried the other way, we are just speculating. Given that a fiesty Vallhund and a working line Malinois are not particularly comparable in the first place, that is.

Anyway, sometimes inhibitions are what you want. I know that. I have done it myself. I did actually say "maybe that's what you want, and that's fine". It is fine. Inhibit away. I treat them with extreme caution and that is my personal choice. My personal view is that they should be treated with caution in general and I would encourage others to do so, but that's not to say there's no place for inhibitions in training.

I don't know why check chains would be relevant to this discussion.

Edited for clarity.

Edited September 9, 2010 by corvus

[Yesmaam]

Because you said "I don't think e-collars need be extreme, but they have the capacity to be extreme."

I agree and I was adding that the e-collar is only another training tool and no more or less extreme than someone who doesn't know how to use a choker chain which also has the capacity to be extreme ie: the only thing that stops a choker chain from pulling through itself is the dogs neck...................

In the wrong hands a choker is much more dangerous to the dogs health than an e-collar.

Edited September 9, 2010 by Yesmaam

[Staranais]

Haha, the irony is, I've said more than once that if I didn't use rewards to teach Erik appropriate default behaviours, I'd spend most of my time UNteaching him things I didn't want him to learn and we wouldn't have time for the fun stuff. Considering neither of us have tried the other way, we are just speculating. Given that a fiesty Vallhund and a working line Malinois are not particularly comparable in the first place, that is.

Yes, either extreme is silly - I apologise if I gave the impression that I constantly squished her down without teaching her & rewarding the correct behaviours. I would find life bloody difficult if I didn't both teach & reward the good stuff, and disuade her from doing the bad stuff. If all I did was correct the bad, she'd probably be bloody miserable.

One important criteria for me in deciding to use aversives as well as reward is that I find I can give her more freedom if she clearly knows that some things are not acceptable.

For example, when we are working out the front of the house I will often have her off leash wandering around the lawn & enjoying the sunshine. And yes, I will often give her a specific behaviour to do as I work, such as put her in a down stay (& periodically reward her for keeping it). But I would not feel safe giving her that level of freedom if I had not also taught her that she must not (NOT NOT NOT) ever do things like flip into full prey drive, dash onto the road & chase the neighbours kids down as they go past on their scooters and bikes. There's just no room for negotiation there. Chasing the kids isn't just "not as rewarding" as doing her down stay - it's not on, ever ever ever. So I guess what I'm saying is she'd spend a lot of time tied up or in her crate if I didn't inhibit her from doing some things.

[corvus]

I like and quite strictly follow Steve White's "Eight Rules for Using Punishment".

1. The punishment must be something the animal dislikes and something the animal does not expect.

2. The punishment must suppress behavior. (This is, in fact, the very definition of something that is a punisher.) If something is being used for punishment, but it does not suppress behavior, it’s ineffective and often just plain abuse.

3. The punishment must be of the perfect intensity. Too much and there will be negative fallout. You’ll end up hurting your relationship with the animal and loosing more than just that behavior. Too little and the punishment will only serve to desensitize the animal and build resistance.

4. The punishment must happen immediately after the behavior it is to be associated with. Otherwise, a clear enough association between the wrong behavior and the punishment will not be made.

5. The punishment must be associated with the behavior, but not with the trainer. Otherwise, the trainer becomes part of the punishment and the animal starts fearing and disliking the trainer.

6. The punishment must happen every time the behavior occurs. If punishment does not happen every time the behavior occurs, the behavior gets put on a variable schedule of reinforcement. Depending on the behavior and how often the punishment actually occurs, the animal could decide that performing the behavior was worth the risk of getting punished.

7. There must be an alternative for the animal.

8. Punishment must never be used to the extent that punishment outweighs positive reinforcement (from the animal’s perspective, not yours!)

Following those criteria for using punishment, e-collars can enable one to fulfil most if not all of them depending on the situation. But then, like everything (check chains and so on), only with careful use. As far as the original topic goes, I'd draw the OP's attention to rule number 5, which IMO is hard to meet if the behaviour that is to be suppressed directly relates to the trainer. I know a few people who have deliberately ignored number 5 for similar behaviours and not found it to be a huge problem. I guess I would sum up by saying that Steve White's rules are a very good guide and deciding to break any of them should be a very carefully planned and rationalised decision.

Edited 'cause I accidentally hit post when I wasn't done.

Edited September 9, 2010 by corvus

[Erny]

Don't necessarily agree with the 2nd half of Number 1, nor with Number 5. For some behaviours, I don't think there's an issue with the dog knowing the punishment is coming from the handler. In fact, sometimes I don't think it is a bad idea if the dog does.

Edited September 9, 2010 by Erny

[Staranais]

I guess I would sum up by saying that Steve White's rules are a very good guide and deciding to break any of them should be a very carefully planned and rationalised decision.

Edited 'cause I accidentally hit post when I wasn't done.

Yes, I have seen them before, and for the most part I like them too.

Like Erny I've got to say that don't always agree with number 5 - depends on the dog and the situation. I can see the arguments for the rule. I understand that you generally want the dog associating good things with you (classical conditioning!), and also understand that in many situations you need the dog to believe the punishment will occur even if you're not present, hence it's good for the dog not to associate the punisher with the handler.

But on the other hand if my dog does something like bites me through sheer stroppiness (not these days but has happened in the past), then I'm quite happy for her to see that I'm the one punishing that behaviour since I need her to understand that I insist that she respects my person (if that makes sense). I don't need her believing that the magical dog gods are zapping her for biting her owner.

[fermanrique]

In my opinion ECollars are one of the greatest tools to support a training program but be careful!

1- Educate yourself before you buy one because an e collar in the wrong hands can seriously affect a dog. There are plenty of good resources online.

2- Buy the best quality available. In particular avoid the cheap and nasty Chinese models that are sold on ebay as they don't regulate the amount of current and you can injure your dog (also they are not reliable at all). You must buy from a reputable brand such as Innotek or SportDog (the one that I use).

3- Pick the right Model: you want a collar that you can provide different levels of stimulation so it can be adjusted to your dog (dogs respond different ti different stimulation levels).

4- Find the right stimulation level for your dog and don't exceed it.

5- Never Use the E Collar if you're angry with your dog.

And remember and e-collar is just a tool, you still need a training program!

I've bought mines online from the US as they seem to be A LOT cheaper than if you buy them locally. I don't know why but you can buy a good one online for under $200 + shipment and you pay over $400 for the same collar here.

RSPCA does not endorse the use of these collars but they are clearly wrong. I have seen these collars used to allow problem dogs to live happily in society that otherwise would have been surrendered as their owners couldn't control them. So for me is better to have a loved dog living with their owners rather than a problem dog in a shelter that is likely to be euthanized.

A site that I like that use training collars and have lots of videos is http://www.sitmeanssit.com/

[Aidan3]

2- Buy the best quality available. In particular avoid the cheap and nasty Chinese models that are sold on ebay as they don't regulate the amount of current

I bought one of those because I just wanted a vibration (pager) collar. The stim is utterly useless though, it says it has 99 levels, but in reality it has 1 level that pulses at 99 different rates. At anything up to about level 30 the pulse is so slow that you couldn't possibly time the correction accurately, what's more it finishes the next pulse after you take your finger off the button so it keeps correcting while your dog is doing the right thing. So even a dog owner with naturally quite good timing might not realise that they are confusing the hell out of their dog with poorly timed corrections.

[Staranais]

2- Buy the best quality available. In particular avoid the cheap and nasty Chinese models that are sold on ebay as they don't regulate the amount of current

I bought one of those because I just wanted a vibration (pager) collar. The stim is utterly useless though, it says it has 99 levels, but in reality it has 1 level that pulses at 99 different rates. At anything up to about level 30 the pulse is so slow that you couldn't possibly time the correction accurately, what's more it finishes the next pulse after you take your finger off the button so it keeps correcting while your dog is doing the right thing. So even a dog owner with naturally quite good timing might not realise that they are confusing the hell out of their dog with poorly timed corrections.

Ugh really? What a piece of ill-designed crap. I'm glad you tried it on yourself first so you realised what was going on, before you put it on a dog. And glad you posted here, because now I'll never buy one.

[Guest]

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Edited September 13, 2010 by Guest

[Guest]

I can't have a good play with him without him using his teeth.

Ok .......

if he is that excitable ... and has learnt to play that way , I have a solution..

Don't play those games!!

get him to learn other ways of playing ... what 'play' are you doing with him where he can bite you?

There are lots of ways to interact/play !!

Unfortunately ALL games eventually involve teeth!

Whoever or where ever he was before he came to me, their idea of play was rough to say the least. He has calmed down considerably in the 6 months since we adopted him, but at the beginning I couldn't walk anywhere without him trying to bite toes and ankles. I still cannot play with him if I am on my knees as he will try and dominate the game straight away. The only thing I can do at this point in time is tap my fingers on the tiles and I say "Uffa, Uffa" and he starts to run up and down the hallway, but after a short time he becomes over stimulated and tries to bite my hands, I stop the game straight away, but then he starts to bark, which HAS to result in a time out, sometimes 2 or 3 time outs before the barking desists.

He also uses his teeth (gently) when I do something to him that he's not happy about. An example would be putting his jumper on (he has to be clipped, so he does feel the cold at night), or putting a collar on him, he will roll on his back and use his mouth and teeth to hinder access. Treats are helpful and I always positively re-enforce, but it feels like I'm banging my head against the wall at times. I also use the motto "teeth on skin mean no play", as soon as his teeth touch my skin I stop everything and walk away, but as you all know there are times when you just can't stop what you are doing.

He also tries very hard to illicit my mum into playing with him when I walk out of the room by barking at her. This has been going on for months and months. The advice my mum was given to stop the behaviour is: make no eye contact, as soon as he starts to bark get up and walk out of the room and make a cup of tea, if he continues and follows her, she is to walk out and shut the door leaving him on the other side, but only for about 10 seconds and then come back in, repeat the process if he continues. His record so far is 5 time outs in one session. Unfortunately my mum is 81 and has trouble getting in and out of the chair, so sometimes she just let's him bark at her and ignores him.

I really don't know if the e-collar would be of any benefit in these situations.

[Guest]

What kinds of games are you playing with her that you keep getting bitten? Like, wrestling on the ground? Or playing tug with a toy?

See Persephone with my reply, will answer your question.

[Guest]

If you need an E-collar to stop a dog from mouthing you while you are playing there is seriously something wrong with either your training or the advice you are being given.

It is something that I would seriously lookout to help my rescued pound pooch from using his teeth. I can't have a good play with him without him using his teeth. Though the bite is not hard and much more like mouthing than biting, it is still a behaviour that is unacceptable. I have tried many different methods to get him to stop as suggested by the RSPCA one on one trainer/behaviourist. The biting has become less and I feel I should continue with what I am doing before taking the extreme measure of using the ecollar.

What would you suggest to stop him. He is just over 2 years old now????

[persephone]

I really don't know if the e-collar would be of any benefit in these situations.

Hmm.. I don't think it would be of benefit really - as it sounds as if his whole relationship with the humans in the house needs some changing .

Do you do Triangle of temptation with him? *pinned topic at the top of the training forum*

I am also going to suggest that you NOT play with him as you are doing ... he can be entertained quite well with you standing :p With you standing, and him with 4 paws, and/or bum , on the ground, he can be taught to target things.. or to find things hidden under flowerpots, or around the room .... he can be taught to catch things... all enjoyable, rewarding , entertaining, TIRING, and with not much stimulation for him to start with the mouth thing . I THINK

Also, perhaps take a listen to how you use your voice?

Do you speak to him in a higher pitched voice whan playing/praising?

This may also be exciting to him .. so, try speaking quietly to him, and praising with just a 'Good Boy" and a smiley voice.

I feel for your poor mum

Can you not crate him sometimes? give him a treat, pop him in the crate , and he is contained, occupied, and is NOT controlling who does what in the house! Little Tyrant

I honestly feel you need to use the services of a professional, like the one whose name I have seen on here, Kathy Kopellis-McLeod .

A dog who is adult and bitey/controlling, is no fun to live with ...there is so much management and disruption

No doubt others will be along to help too -

Edited September 13, 2010 by persephone

[Kavik]

I agree with persephone - there is no need to do any sort of rough play with him if he has a tendency to use his teeth in that way. There are heaps of tricks and games you can do while standing, using food rewards, that does not promote mouthing behaviour.

[Steve K9Pro]

Has anybody heard of the "Remote Training Collar" made by Big Leash.

K9: Yes it is a very good unit!

It states all great things and how well it works, but when I tried to find exactly HOW it works, eg, electric stimulation, I can't find zip.

K9: Yes its a static pulse collar, not sure what else you might need to know, the specs are right on the Big Leash Website.

I cannot see any endorsement from the RSPCA, only such Clubs as the "Police Dog Training Society".

K9: Hmm not sure how RSPCA endorsements would help? They arent trainers?

Has anyone used it?

K9: yep fully tested quite a number of them, great quality unit.

Is it humane? Or is it as cruel as I think it is?

K9: Hmm, how cruel do you think it is?

[Steve K9Pro]

It is something that I would seriously lookout to help my rescued pound pooch from using his teeth. I can't have a good play with him without him using his teeth. Though the bite is not hard and much more like mouthing than biting, it is still a behaviour that is unacceptable.

K9: Yes it is unacceptable, but I think going for an e collar is a bit over the top to slove this simple problem.

I have tried many different methods to get him to stop as suggested by the RSPCA

K9: well like I said....

The biting has become less and I feel I should continue with what I am doing before taking the extreme measure of using the ecollar.

K9: Ok so who is stopping you? why look for a solution when you already have one?

E collars arent extreme at all, well if you use them correctly that is. Sure you could stop the biting during play with one, and it wont harm the dog or the relationship either, there are just a billion other ways that are pretty much easy and free..

Just try some elimination training, start the game, the instant a tooth touches you, end the game and leave the dog alone. If your dog likes the game it will learn not to put teeth on you.

If your dog doesnt like the game it wont learn this valuable rule, but if your dog doesnt like the game, dont play it...