Breeder's Contracts - What Does Yours Say?

[Parkeyre]

Sharing is caring.

I know this has been done to death and back again, but I'd really appreciate some help from the DOL Breeders. ;)

Other DOLers have asked for contracts to view, and lots of people offered to PM and email them. I'd like to get an

idea of what breeder's do for their contracts of sales, studs and leases etc. I have not yet had a litter but I would

really like to start working on my contracts for when I have a litter and really need them.

;) - If any breeders have contracts for their dogs, would you mind allowing me to view them?

- I'd like to offer full health guarantees against hereditary issues, but I'm struggling to word it all.

- I'd also like to have the buyers agree and sign on their contract that should they no longer be able

to keep their dog that it is sold back to me first. Should it be at original purchase price no matter the

age? What does everyone do here if you don't mind sharing.

- How effective are desexing rules with your pet puppies? What would you say your success rate is?

Do you offer rebates? Take deposits and use that as desex prices before selling your pups already desexed?

When is the best time to expect your pups to be desexed by? Sexual maturity, 1 year, 6months?

- Co-ownership Contract wise, if a pup was to be sold on co-ownership to have a litter out of at a later

date, but the new owners also wanted to breed the pup, would you charge them for the pup? Who generally

pays for the health testing? Do puppy buyers sometimes offer to buy you OUT of co ownership with the pup?

The co-ownership details are the ones I am most interested in.

- What else is there to consider?

Please; if you have contracts for your kennel and you don't mind sharing, please let me view them and use

them to help me construct my own contracts. If you could send them in PDF files also; I would love it, but

I will and do greatly appreciate any information at all and would be happy to send you copies of mine if you

are curious to see what I finally went with for my kennel.

My email is [email protected] . Thankyou.

Edited September 4, 2010 by Parkeyre

[oakway]

I don't have breeder contracts.

They are not worth the paper they are written on.

The only way you MIGHT get a legal contract is to get a stat dec.

To me it is sort of like locks.......they only keep honest people out.

[Parkeyre]

Bumping again.

Would love any information, particularily the bolded.

[ellz]

The most important thing to remember when drawing up any agreement is for it to even have a shot at being taken seriously, it must benefit both parties equally.

You cannot put excessive conditions on the sale of something because legally once the "goods" (and yes, in law dogs are classed as goods) have been paid for, they are the property of the new owner and they have rights under the law.

If you care so much about something that you feel the need to tie it up in paperwork, then don't sell it in the first place. That is the ONLY way to have a watertight agreement.

[Parkeyre]

The most important thing to remember when drawing up any agreement is for it to even have a shot at being taken seriously, it must benefit both parties equally.

You cannot put excessive conditions on the sale of something because legally once the "goods" (and yes, in law dogs are classed as goods) have been paid for, they are the property of the new owner and they have rights under the law.

If you care so much about something that you feel the need to tie it up in paperwork, then don't sell it in the first place. That is the ONLY way to have a watertight agreement.

I understand.

I'd like for my limit register pups to be desexed in pethomes, but I worry about the results from desexing Australian Shepherds at eight weeks or else I'd just have it done before sending them to their new homes.

I would like to be able to offer pups I would otherwise keep on a co-ownership agreement so that they would still require my permission to breed these pups. I would like to offer the co-owned pups at a lesser price then outright pups because there would be that restriction on them. But if i wanted to then use that pup in the future and I gave it to them at say 50% of the price; is it expected that I pay for the health testing as well even if they plan to breed the pup as well? Just not sure what the going thing is here.

Do you do contracts Ellz?

[ellz]

I do use "agreements" not "contracts" (and yes, there is a difference).

BUT...I'm well aware that they are not enforceable and will only be "adhered" to by honest people who probably wouldn't need an agreement anyway.

If I have ANY doubt whether a person will do the right thing by a puppy, whether with an agreement or not, then I don't sell to them.

I also generally don't sell on a) co-ownerships b) main registration and I don't lock people into desexing unless they want to. I do strongly suggest and recommend it, but at the end of the day if I took somebody to court for not desexing all it would do would be to cost me a lot of money.

[Parkeyre]

I do use "agreements" not "contracts" (and yes, there is a difference).

BUT...I'm well aware that they are not enforceable and will only be "adhered" to by honest people who probably wouldn't need an agreement anyway.

If I have ANY doubt whether a person will do the right thing by a puppy, whether with an agreement or not, then I don't sell to them.

I also generally don't sell on a) co-ownerships b) main registration and I don't lock people into desexing unless they want to. I do strongly suggest and recommend it, but at the end of the day if I took somebody to court for not desexing all it would do would be to cost me a lot of money.

Ah alright.

I would only offer Main Registration to those pups who would be show prospect puppies going to new owners who would want to handle them, or breeders who would benefit from the pup's lines and the pup would benefit being there also. I would want to co-own a pup that I would otherwise WANT to keep for myself but couldn't for whatever reason; who I would want to use in the future to better my lines. I do not have council restrictions here, but obviously can't take on more dogs that I can handle.

How succesful are partial refund offers in regards to desexing? IE: If pup is desexed before it's first birthday, breeder would pay 50% of the desex price. Do buyers often take breeders up on these offers? I think this may be a better way to go to entice buyers to desex their pet dogs that come from my home.

Also; agreements and contracts, how are they different? Are your agreements signed on paper? I'm genuinely interested.

[ellz]

The only real way to ensure that a puppy is desexed is to do it yourself. I personally haven't had a lot of luck with desexing refunds etc. As I said, you can suggest and strongly recommend it but the choice is entirely up to the new owner.

Oh and as it was explained to me, the difference between contract and agreement depends on context. However, conceptually they are different because if the parties have a "contract" that means their arrangement will be enforced by the courts, whereas an "agreement" is just an arrangement between the parties which may or may not contain the necessary elements to be enforceable before a court of law.

It has been proven time and again that contracts and agreements generally don't hold water in a court of law because they usually are not balanced. If the agreement is that X pays $500 and gets a registered puppy then that is balanced because there is offer, acceptance and consideration. It is when conditions are thrown in that "favour" the breeder that things get murky because for everything the breeder wants, ie the puppy speyed, then the purchaser must benefit too.

And likewise, I would NEVER lock a person into a "show" agreement, simply because you are then implying that you guarantee that the puppy will be show quality and if it doesn't shape up, then you could be held liable.

[Parkeyre]

The only real way to ensure that a puppy is desexed is to do it yourself. I personally haven't had a lot of luck with desexing refunds etc. As I said, you can suggest and strongly recommend it but the choice is entirely up to the new owner.

Oh and as it was explained to me, the difference between contract and agreement depends on context. However, conceptually they are different because if the parties have a "contract" that means their arrangement will be enforced by the courts, whereas an "agreement" is just an arrangement between the parties which may or may not contain the necessary elements to be enforceable before a court of law.

It has been proven time and again that contracts and agreements generally don't hold water in a court of law because they usually are not balanced. If the agreement is that X pays $500 and gets a registered puppy then that is balanced because there is offer, acceptance and consideration. It is when conditions are thrown in that "favour" the breeder that things get murky because for everything the breeder wants, ie the puppy speyed, then the purchaser must benefit too.

And likewise, I would NEVER lock a person into a "show" agreement, simply because you are then implying that you guarantee that the puppy will be show quality and if it doesn't shape up, then you could be held liable.

Thanks Ellz.

I personally have a co-owned bitch whom i purchased as a pup. She was a full price pup, but the only restrictions I have on her at all is that I have the breeder's permission to undertake a breeding with that bitch. So the breeder must approve of the stud. They don't have a say on placement of the pups or anything. I think that's pretty reasonable.

[ellz]

Thanks Ellz.

I personally have a co-owned bitch whom i purchased as a pup. She was a full price pup, but the only restrictions I have on her at all is that I have the breeder's permission to undertake a breeding with that bitch. So the breeder must approve of the stud. They don't have a say on placement of the pups or anything. I think that's pretty reasonable.

OK so what happens if the breeder wants to breed from the bitch and you're not ready? Or they want to use a dog that you don't want to use?

Personally, I would not pay full price for any puppy with conditions that could conceivably remove ANY of the control of YOUR property from you.

[Parkeyre]

Thanks Ellz.

I personally have a co-owned bitch whom i purchased as a pup. She was a full price pup, but the only restrictions I have on her at all is that I have the breeder's permission to undertake a breeding with that bitch. So the breeder must approve of the stud. They don't have a say on placement of the pups or anything. I think that's pretty reasonable.

OK so what happens if the breeder wants to breed from the bitch and you're not ready? Or they want to use a dog that you don't want to use?

Personally, I would not pay full price for any puppy with conditions that could conceivably remove ANY of the control of YOUR property from you.

I've just pulled out the paperwork.

J. Special Conditions:

Any decision regarding the reproduction (breeding and desexing)of this bitch, including any cost outlays or income received must be jointly agreed upon by all partners before and action is taken.

- if the partnership is terminated the dog must be transferred and owned by the 2nd partner (which is me).

- the dog will ordinarily be domiciled at the 2nd partners adress.

- food, vet and health care, trasnportation, entry fees, insurance will all by the responsibility of partner 2.

[ellz]

I'm sorry but I would have never agreed to such a thing.

Stipulations like that are fantastic while you both agree, but generally the minute that the purchaser "sees the light" or the seller thinks they have lost control and the purchaser is learning too much....things tend to get nasty!

I don't want to frighten you but a dispute over ownership of a dog cost me a lot of money, a shitload of angst and my marriage. And it was all because the seller suddenly realised that they didn't have a puppet who would do as they were told at their disposal.

[Parkeyre]

I'm sorry but I would have never agreed to such a thing.

Stipulations like that are fantastic while you both agree, but generally the minute that the purchaser "sees the light" or the seller thinks they have lost control and the purchaser is learning too much....things tend to get nasty!

I don't want to frighten you but a dispute over ownership of a dog cost me a lot of money, a shitload of angst and my marriage. And it was all because the seller suddenly realised that they didn't have a puppet who would do as they were told at their disposal.

This was my first Australian Shepherd dog, I knew no better and didn't mind. Still don't really mind, but would have much rathered her be owned outright. The agreement there on the paperwork means that each of us could keep eachother form breeding her should we want too if we didn't agree on as little as one thing. that's a shame though.

[SwaY]

How succesful are partial refund offers in regards to desexing? IE: If pup is desexed before it's first birthday, breeder would pay 50% of the desex price. Do buyers often take breeders up on these offers? I think this may be a better way to go to entice buyers to desex their pet dogs that come from my home.

I added $250 into the purchase price of the puppy, $250 was returned upon proof of desexing.

It could either be paid direct to the vet at the time of desexing, or to the owners once they showed me the proof.

I requested them to be done between 9-12months of age. I have had 4 out of 7 already be desexed, they are 10 months old.

I think if you offered people $50-$100 returned at time of desexing they would not bother.

With that said, if you get the vibe they won't do it, no amount of refund will make them.

[dancinbcs]

I have co-owned and co-bred several dogs over the years with a variety of different people. I always just have verbal agreements and it has always worked for me. My main concern was just keeping my lines and prefix going with keeping limited numbers, rather than any monetary gain for me. My arrangements have either been with pet owners, who had the litters at their house, with my help and under my supervision, or with new breeders, I was mentoring until they felt ready to go out on their own.

Basically, contracts are pretty much impossible to enforce and if you are not sure about the person you are dealing with, don't get involved with them in the first place. There will always be some minor disagreements and sometimes peoples lives and priorities change and they let you down, but that is part of life and you just have to move on.

The best agreement I know of for getting a bitch back to breed with is to sell the bitch at full price, either outright or in dual names, with a request to have her back for a litter. The decision however to let you breed the bitch, should be left up to the owner. If you get the bitch back for a litter, refund the purchase price, less any health testing costs you incur, if the owner is going to breed her themself. If it is pet bitch then you would need to pay the health testing as well as the refunding the purchase. This way if the bitch dies from an accident, for example, before she comes back or the owner decides they just can't let her go, then at least you are not out of pocket financially. If it is a bitch you must have a litter from, keep her as a baby until you get that litter, then think about re-homing at a later age.

With stud dogs a co-own with both owners allowed to use the dog at no charge, usually works out fine, so long as the owner keeping the dog gets to keep any outside stud fees. Of course both owners should agree to any proposed matings.

Basically, if the owner who has a dog or bitch in residence, has the right to own the dog as they see fit, except for needing to OK breedings with a co-owner, things usually work out fine. The one main reason to co-own is to stop the dog being on-sold, especially for export. In my breed, this is the most usual reason to sell pups in co-own arrangements, rather than for anything the breeder may get back from the dog.

With desexing pets, I have never had anyone that bought a Border Collie off me purely as a pet, not desex it. People puppy farming from small breeds is a real problem but is not usually something that tends to happen with the larger breeds as much unless it happens to be the "breed of the moment" like SBTs are at present. Most pet owners simply want to desex their dog as soon as the vet tells them to. If you really want o make sure it is done then refunding a large desexing deposit is the way to go.