Honey "warning Off" People And Things

[dee lee]

Not long after we first adopted Honey, she started warning off the occasional man in a hoodie whilst on our walks. She would run at them and give a big woof, then run back to me.

It wasnt happening too often and to be honest, I live in an area where I was happy with that kind of response, so I wasnt too worried. If she was offlead I'd say, NO and put her onlead.

In the last month or so though, the incidents have increased and her "targets" have become a lot wider- a fat lady, some school girls, anyone really who she seems to think shouldnt be there.

She has started at our door too and the woofs have gotten a bit more confident. :D

It seems to be part territorial and part due to being uncertain about them and part because she seems to enjoy it. She is not at all aggressive about it, its just warning.

She is all bluff and I know she wouldn't hurt anyone- I have made a point of introducing her for a pat to anyone she does it to and she is then quite happy- but I understand she could really scare someone and she should not be allowed to do this.

Strangely, at the same time her prey drive seems to have increased too. I put it down to extra smells of spring- this is bugging me too because she is much more distracted and I am finding her recalls are slipping again- but perhaps both are linked?

I'm aware that I need to put an end to this and wonder if anyone could give some advice.

[megan_]

She is most probably scared of them?

Is she on lead?I'd suggest two things:

i) Review your leadership - you're the leader and will take care of any trouble so she needn't worry about strange men and fat ladies.

ii) Play the "whose that" game. It is described in the reactive dog thread in general, but in short, whenever she looks at somethign that MAY cause her distress, say "who's that?" in a happy voice (the SECOND she looks at it) and shove a treat in her mouth. Soon, she will learn to focus on you when she hears "who's that?" rather than on the object that is "scaring" her.

[dee lee]

The leadership thing I am on top of, it was the first thing I thought.

Whilst I do think it starts as uncertainty she seems to be getting some pay off from it and I think its become a game to her. She certainly is in drive when it happens- ears up, alert, completely focused.

I know the "whose that game", I do make her aware of anyone I think may be an issue and try to get between her and them to deflect her attention. I'll try the game properly though and see if it helps.

Thanks.

[megan_]

don't know about this, but if you think it is becoming a game and she's getting something out of it then maybe she goes on a very short leash once she's done this and you turn away from the person - ie "all fun ends when you bark at someone". You could use a Non Reward Marker (ie use "too bad" in a very neutral voice" as soon as she does it so that she associates the baking = all fun ends.

Edited September 3, 2010 by megan_

[Kavik]

She is most probably scared of them?

Is she on lead?I'd suggest two things:

i) Review your leadership - you're the leader and will take care of any trouble so she needn't worry about strange men and fat ladies.

ii) Play the "whose that" game. It is described in the reactive dog thread in general, but in short, whenever she looks at somethign that MAY cause her distress, say "who's that?" in a happy voice (the SECOND she looks at it) and shove a treat in her mouth. Soon, she will learn to focus on you when she hears "who's that?" rather than on the object that is "scaring" her.

I don't use a verbal cue, and find it useful to wait for them to look at you before giving a treat. Allow them to look at dog/person, they look back at you, click/treat.

Not sure how shoving a treat in their mouth when they are focussed on another thing will help - if they are intent on the other thing they may not even notice it.

(I used to try to get attention by luring with the treat when she looked at another dog, but she didn't learn how to cope with the stimulus. Allowing her to look at the dog and giving her the CHOICE to look back at me for a treat has had much more success.)

Edited September 3, 2010 by Kavik

[dee lee]

She is most probably scared of them?

Is she on lead?I'd suggest two things:

i) Review your leadership - you're the leader and will take care of any trouble so she needn't worry about strange men and fat ladies.

ii) Play the "whose that" game. It is described in the reactive dog thread in general, but in short, whenever she looks at somethign that MAY cause her distress, say "who's that?" in a happy voice (the SECOND she looks at it) and shove a treat in her mouth. Soon, she will learn to focus on you when she hears "who's that?" rather than on the object that is "scaring" her.

I don't use a verbal cue, and find it useful to wait for them to look at you before giving a treat. Allow them to look at dog/person, they look back at you, click/treat.

Not sure how shoving a treat in their mouth when they are focussed on another thing will help - if they are intent on the other thing they may not even notice it.

(I used to try to get attention by luring with the treat when she looked at another dog, but she didn't learn how to cope with the stimulus. Allowing her to look at the dog and giving her the CHOICE to look back at me for a treat has had much more success.)

Yep, she wont take a treat when she is focused.

If onlead, she will look at me if directed and made to sit/stay. She will fidget but is quite responsive.

The problem has been when she has been offlead and the behaviour has come out of the blue.

Such a situation happened this morning with some Galahs (see, not just fat ladies ) and I had to get between her and the galahs before she would stop.

Then I could direct her to STOP and DROP and STAY and she did. This was a prey thing, but she behaves not dissimilarly to the other behaviour.

Annoyingly she is rather unpredictable. We can jog past the same fitness group for weeks with no issues then all of a sudden she will decide she has to protect me from them. :D

More and more of our walks she is onlead now because I cant trust her not to do it.

[Kajtek]

Don't worry....

In my experience, dogs (like us hoomans ) have "moods".

It seems to me that she is feeling a bit insecure - fight/flight thing. I'd continue the normal routine but let her know that running up to people to tell them off is very bad manners. I am sure you have a way of telling her that something is not acceptable - use the same "way" for ease of communication

Edited September 3, 2010 by HonBun

[Erny]

She is all bluff and I know she wouldn't hurt anyone ...

How do you know?

When you were happy with her response to the occasional man in a hoodie, you wouldn't have foreseen it to escalating to what it is now (or you would have done something about it back then).

So now you think she is "all bluff" and "wouldn't hurt anyone". But it is from this level that the behaviour can spring board. Just like it did from the "occasional man in a hoodie" to a broader range of people and a higher frequency.

IMO you should have someone out to help you. Please don't toy with this by trying to train over the internet. This is where the behaviours that land dogs and people in really deep poo, begin. It is worth getting some professional tuition and guidance now - whilst the behaviour is not as bad as it can get and before it gets worse.

[persephone]

She is all bluff and I know she wouldn't hurt anyone ...

How do you know?

When you were happy with her response to the occasional man in a hoodie, you wouldn't have foreseen it to escalating to what it is now (or you would have done something about it back then).

So now you think she is "all bluff" and "wouldn't hurt anyone". But it is from this level that the behaviour can spring board. Just like it did from the "occasional man in a hoodie" to a broader range of people and a higher frequency.

IMO you should have someone out to help you. Please don't toy with this by trying to train over the internet. This is where the behaviours that land dogs and people in really deep poo, begin. It is worth getting some professional tuition and guidance now - whilst the behaviour is not as bad as it can get and before it gets worse.

X2

[jesomil]

From several of the things you have said, I tend to get the opinion that you really need to work on leadership.

Dogs can start reacting to things out of fear, but then because it works, they get more confident at it.

At a guess, I would say that the dog isnt protecting you but is allowed to get away with a behaviour so it is escalating. The leader is the one that chooses if and when protecting is necessary.

ETA I was still writing when Erny posted so i didnt see it. Ignore my post, Erny says it much better .

Edited September 3, 2010 by jesomil

[dee lee]

Erny, I am sure she wouldn't hurt anyone, she is an extremely soft dog.

Her body language when she does it is still submissive and she pulls up very short from the person.

It's still not acceptable though.

And even in the beginning, whilst I wasn't too bothered, I still didn't tolerate it.

As for getting someone in, the behaviour is so random that it's unlikely that I could show a behaviourist what she does.

From experience, unless I can do that, it's a waste of money.

Jesomil, what specifically have I said that makes you question my leadership?

I am obviously missing something, I have seen behaviourists before and am pretty clued up on what to do.

[Staranais]

What is she getting out of the barking, then? i.e., why is she doing it, what is the reward? There must be a reward or she would not do the behaviour.

Is the reward that the frightening people are "scared off" (in her mind?) Is the reward that the people give a fun reaction when she surprises them (my girl used to do this )? Is the reward that she thinks she has protected her resources from these people (the resources being you or possibly the park?)

I tend to think in general, if you can work out what reward the dog is getting from the behaviour, you have a good chance at stopping the behaviour. If you can't work that out by yourself, that's when hiring an experienced professional is useful. Anyone giving advice over the internet isn't terribly helpful, since no matter how good they are, they haven't actually seen the dog in action.

I think the concern is that she's barking at people to get them to go away, and if one day it doesn't work and the person doesn't go away, she may escalate & bite them. And also that, if she trusted you to look after her, she wouldn't need to drive these strangers away by herself.

If you don't want to get a behaviourist since you don't think you could reproduce the situation for them to see, is there any chance you could capture the behaviour on video to show them?

[Erny]

As for getting someone in, the behaviour is so random that it's unlikely that I could show a behaviourist what she does.

From experience, unless I can do that, it's a waste of money.

Not necessarily. Whilst it can be an advantage to see the behaviour occurring, it doesn't mean a good behaviourist can't glean an understanding of it without seeing it. And there are many times where I have picked up on the smallest of body postures/language that owners haven't or don't pick up, that tells me a story without needing to see the full blown behaviour. Apart from which, the behaviourist should be able to assess your relationship with your dog (from your dog's point of view, rather than yours) and tweak anything that might or can be tweaked. Even dealing with things that to the naked eye are not apparently directly related to the behaviour you describe can make a difference and help.

Thing is, if you don't expect a behaviourist to be able to help you because the behaviourist isn't likely to see the behaviour, what are you expecting to achieve by doing it via the internet, where observation is completely ruled out?

[dee lee]

I was asking in here because I was hoping for some advice on strategies to correct the behaviour from people who have experienced it.

And I have received some good advice.

I will talk to a trainer, specifically the woman I adopted Honey from.

Staranais, yes, that was my thought too, I need to work out her pay off and work to stop that.

Edited September 4, 2010 by ✽deelee

[malsrock]

I was asking in here because I was hoping for some advice on strategies to correct the behaviour from people who have experienced it.

And I have received some good advice.

I will talk to a trainer, specifically the woman I adopted Honey from.

Staranais, yes, that was my thought too, I need to work out her pay off and work to stop that.

Hi Deelee,

My crash hat is on because people are going to hit me over the head from my reply............I do have a hard head though

IMHO and I am speaking from working breed experience, I would look for assistance with a trainer who will use negative reinforcement methods where necessary, a trainer with wide visual scope and a large box of tricks. A trainer using only treats and clickers with the behaviour you have described will take for ever to reach the level of behaviour and control that you are looking to achieve.

Fiona :D

Edited September 4, 2010 by malsrock

[dee lee]

Ok, over the weekend, I took on board all comments about my leadership, had a good honest think and am undertaking to address any deficiencies.

As Honey came from an abusive background and is a very sweet and affectionate dog I can now see that I was letting her get away with a lot of things I should not have.

My previous dog was a LOT of hard work and Honey was a pleasure to own after her. I obviously let my leadership slide as it was so nice not to have dog ownership be a chore. Its testament to Honey's good nature it took so long for things to deteriorate. In addition to the warning off people, she had become very insistent about pats, less compliant to commands and was pulling onlead a bit. All signs that I had barely noticed as they crept up slowly.

The last couple of days I have been getting back on top of things and (so far) I have had no more incidents, she is less pushy and does seem genuinely more relaxed.

Early days but we are hopefully on track.

Thanks guys.

[megan_]

Good news. I know how you feel - my girl used to be a breeding bitch on a puppy farm - it is hard not to just give her everything that she wants because she has lived through hell.

She was barking at people too, but some leadershp and "who's that" means that she's a much happier little girl.

[dee lee]

Its so true Megan, even when she has been a bit naughty it has made me happy because I can see the puppy in her. When we first got her she would "hit the deck" when she was called, afraid she would be hit.

Deep down I knew I was spoiling her, but it didn't seem to be doing any harm for such a long time, I thought that maybe I didn't need to be so strict and could still maintain leadership. Obviously not.

We'll see how we go.

[persephone]

good update .

[aussielover]

Yay beautiful Honey Happy to hear she is doing well now.

It would be hard not to spoil her I reckon!