Food Possesive

[Guest]

I have a 2 year old Lhasa Cross, whom I rescued from the pound about 6 months ago. As you can imagine "Micky" had some issues when we first got him, most of which with a lot of love, patience and hard work we have worked through. I have also had the help and advice of an RSPCA Dog Behaviourist and Trainer who has helped me immensely. I have also emailed her about this "behaviour", but thought it couldn't hurt to get other opinions/advice.

Micky is very food motivated, so I have been using the Clicker to train him. He is not a snatcher of food, he takes food gently from your hands. If food falls on the floor, he does not make a fuss if I hold him back or make him stay until the mess has been cleaned away. I have also conquered the "Triangle of Temptation", making him sit and wait until I give the signal that he can have his 'dinner'. Only last night was different, I gave him his food and then the signal for him to eat, he went straight to the bowl and started eating and I stroked his fur down his back saying "good boy". I felt, rather than heard a low growl, so I stroked him again and this time I heard the growl. I knew I had to win this stand off, but there was no way I was going to put my hand in to grab the bowl, with out really thinking whether it was the right thing to do, I grabbed the broom and pushed him back away from the bowl (I did not use the broom to swat, hit or any other violent act, I didn't want him to get a complex with the broom), he then got really nasty, not towards me, he was trying to get back to the bowl. When he was far enough away I picked the bowl up (it still had food in it), I made him sit again and then allowed him to eat from the bowl while I held it in my hands. He was calm and placid, allowing me to scratch his head and ears while eating.

It's obvious I have been lax in picking this up in the past, thinking that his gentleness towards food when training just followed through to his dinner (but obviously it does not). What can I do to try and modify this behaviour?

Just letting you know that even though he is a rescue dog, his issues are not one of abuse. More like neglect, according to the expert, it seems that he was left to his own devices for long periods of time, so had no idea of training, learning or basic manners. He also looks as though he's been rough housed. Someone has been really rough while playing with him to the point where he would use his teeth to play. I've nearly eradicated that behaviour all together. Overall he's a very confident dog, bordering on a dominant personality, which is another aspect of his personality we are working on. But in general, he is a very loving dog, who just loves being loved and tries hard to please. He definitely deserves a second chance.

I'd appreciate any comments, advice or opinions on what I should do about the food possessiveness at dinnertime.

MM

[aussielover]

I don't think shooing him away with a broom was helpful and I am not surprised he reacted aggressively towards this, he was probably quite confused as to what was happening.

I do not agree with interfering with the dog at meal times, but I guess that is your decision.

I would not liked to be touched while I was trying to eat and perhaps this makes him feel nervous. Can I ask why you stroke him while he is eating?

I practice food exchange with my dog regularly, just in case an incident ever occured where I did need to take the food away in a hurry.

Your trainer will be able to tell you more about food exchange and assess whether it will be suitable with this dog.

I am glad you are seeing a behaviourist though as every dog responds to things differently.

[persephone]

When dogs are eating- I don't touch them-or their food ... that said- I know that I COULD take it with no probs- we always practice "Swaps" .. where they give me a toy or a bone , and they get something in return .... so when I ask/tell... there is no problem.

I think your action with the broom was unnecessary ..and has possibly now taught him that you are not to be fully trusted

Please get a trainer in to help with this- personal help, where someone can witness the dog and behaviours is the only way to get advice/help tailored to your problem :D

[Jacquiboss&scoop]

I think its a little bit of resource protective behaviour from what you have outlined

I have to say at the outset that I do not handle any of my animals when they eat their meals , and I expect them to leave me alone when I am eating mine.

We do take things we have not given them away from them without issue they have a give and leave command that they follow all the time I suppose we could use this with their dinner bowl should we need to.

If you feel that he has to give way on this then there are a few ways forward that are not likely to get you into a confrontation

Use the TOT method for each bit of food he gets , he gets not one bite without working for it ,

the growl was most likely leave me and my dinner alone , he is most likely differentiating between dinner and treats ie work for treat get to eat treat , work for dinner get to eat dinner. you gave it to me is now mine ,

If you cannot effect an instant short correction (IE taking hold of Collar and removal of bowl and walk away ) then do the TOT method for him to regain it.

Long complicated corrections can make it hard for the dog to understand what it was that set of the correction.

[TsarsMum]

im someone who thinks you should be able to grab there food/bowl/bones etc as one day you might have too. i do this from a pup so i cant help you with this issue.

maybe a trainer or someone close who could

[persephone]

you should be able to grab there food/bowl/bones etc as one day you might have too.

No argument from me :D BUT they need to be trained up to it ... to see that it is no big deal .... and touching a dog/trying to remove food without all the groundwork is asking for a reaction

[TsarsMum]

No argument from me :D BUT they need to be trained up to it ... to see that it is no big deal .... and touching a dog/trying to remove food without all the groundwork is asking for a reaction

absolutly agree 110%

[aussielover]

im someone who thinks you should be able to grab there food/bowl/bones etc as one day you might have too. i do this from a pup so i cant help you with this issue.

maybe a trainer or someone close who could

There is also difference between taking the food away calmly and stroking the dog whilst eating. I see no reason why stroking the dog when it is eating is necessary, it seems a little strange to me.

[Guest]

For those of you wondering why I petted him while eating=It is not a habit, but at that particular point in time he had performed a good stay while waiting for his food, with his eyes on me instead of the food bowl, ( as petting is a form of reward as well as food) so as well as the food reward I stroked him and told his he was a "good dog". I too think that dogs should be left alone while eating, but if the need should arise I would like to feel confident that I can pick up his bowl without fear of being bitten.

I did say myself that the broom was not a well thought out plan, I just wanted to get the bowl before it was empty of food. This was not what I was asking; I would like advice on how I can make "Micky" allow me to take his bowl without incident.

Aussielover mentioned something about practicing "Food exchange", can you please elaborate.

I am in agreement with dogluva101, and in the past have always started off with puppies, so this has never been an issue. I know that I still have a long way to go with Micky before he starts to realize that he is now in a good place, rather than somewhere where violence is a daily occurance. I'm hoping that the broom incident has not made him fearful, I did use the broom around him today with no back lash, so fingers crossed. I know I did the wrong thing with the broom, but it is something I can't change now. I would like advice on "swaps, food exchange' or other methods that have worked for you.

[persephone]

re: swaps

we start off with a toy.. I see a pup carrying something, and ask what they have, and tell them how wonderful it is, etc etc... (make sure you have treats handy..but not visible) get them to sit, and then offer a yummy something ..as they open their mouth, or move toward it, I say SWAP..and take the toy..replacing it with food & praise ;) repeat, repeat,repeat with toys and eventually bones etc.

I also teach YUK! when they pick up something dangerous/forbidden....same sort of thing, but more urgent, and they just drop /spit out what they have . It has various success rates

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

I don't believe in interfering with a dog that's eating. I've had well over 100 foster dogs in the last 5 or so years. Some are food aggressive and some aren't. I don't punish them for it, sometimes they've come from a place where they've been forced to compete. Eventually they often learn that food is going to come regularly and frequently they improve. I don't believe as the owner that I have to be able to stick my hand in their food!

It sounds like he's a very good dog overall so I hope you enjoy him for the rest of his days.

[aussielover]

re: swaps

we start off with a toy.. I see a pup carrying something, and ask what they have, and tell them how wonderful it is, etc etc... (make sure you have treats handy..but not visible) get them to sit, and then offer a yummy something ..as they open their mouth, or move toward it, I say SWAP..and take the toy..replacing it with food & praise repeat, repeat,repeat with toys and eventually bones etc.

I also teach YUK! when they pick up something dangerous/forbidden....same sort of thing, but more urgent, and they just drop /spit out what they have . It has various success rates

What persepone said, except I say "give"

You can do this with food as well, I would start with something very low value though such as a rawhide chew or a bowl of dry food. You have to swap it with something of greater or equal at least equal value.

I often practice with two schmackos, just alternating between the two. I also sometimes do this with bones. When I actually need to take away the bone, i offer some bbq chicken (spoilt much lol!!!) for the exchange.

Having said that my pup has never shown any sign of aggression around food. It is harder once they have started resource guarding.

You can also just add in some yummy meat or chicken into the food bowl whilst they are eating if they will tolerate it. It teaches them that hands in food bowl= more yummy food.

Good luck, I;m sorry i didn't mean to sound nasty or anything, good on you for taking on Micky, he sounds like a sweet dog.

[pixie_meg]

I don't think its acceptable at all that he growled. We had this problem when our boy was a 12 week old pup. We saw a behaviourist and there was no pussy footing around the issue. the behaviourist and us took a pack leader stance. if my boy didn't relinquish the food to us then we used a lead and made him. It was all about who was the at the head of the pack. I now have a dog who instantly moves away from his food if i go near him. I don't tease and i don't take his food away but he recognises me as being higher. I'd highly suggest seeing a trainer/behaviourist about this matter.

[Guest]

I don't think its acceptable at all that he growled. We had this problem when our boy was a 12 week old pup. We saw a behaviourist and there was no pussy footing around the issue. the behaviourist and us took a pack leader stance. if my boy didn't relinquish the food to us then we used a lead and made him. It was all about who was the at the head of the pack. I now have a dog who instantly moves away from his food if i go near him. I don't tease and i don't take his food away but he recognises me as being higher. I'd highly suggest seeing a trainer/behaviourist about this matter.

I have seen a Trainer/behaviourist, she has been out to see Micky and I. After discussing this issue with her, she has given me the same advice as aussielover.

I agree that an owner should be able to take away their dog's bowl without incident.

Thanks for your input.

MM

[Guest]

re: swaps

we start off with a toy.. I see a pup carrying something, and ask what they have, and tell them how wonderful it is, etc etc... (make sure you have treats handy..but not visible) get them to sit, and then offer a yummy something ..as they open their mouth, or move toward it, I say SWAP..and take the toy..replacing it with food & praise ;) repeat, repeat,repeat with toys and eventually bones etc.

I also teach YUK! when they pick up something dangerous/forbidden....same sort of thing, but more urgent, and they just drop /spit out what they have . It has various success rates

What persepone said, except I say "give"

You can do this with food as well, I would start with something very low value though such as a rawhide chew or a bowl of dry food. You have to swap it with something of greater or equal at least equal value.

I often practice with two schmackos, just alternating between the two. I also sometimes do this with bones. When I actually need to take away the bone, i offer some bbq chicken (spoilt much lol!!!) for the exchange.

Having said that my pup has never shown any sign of aggression around food. It is harder once they have started resource guarding.

You can also just add in some yummy meat or chicken into the food bowl whilst they are eating if they will tolerate it. It teaches them that hands in food bowl= more yummy food.

Good luck, I;m sorry i didn't mean to sound nasty or anything, good on you for taking on Micky, he sounds like a sweet dog.

'

Sorry, didn't mean to sound stroppy, it's just I have worked so hard with Micky in the last 6 months (I am on a disability pension, so that's 24/7 4 hours a day).

I just want to make sure that I am doing the correct thing for him. I have read anything I can get my hands on regarding Dog Behaviour, spoken to trainers/behaviourists and had one on one sessions. I want Micky to reach his full potential, not just for me, but to see how far he can go coming from such a rotten start to life.

Again, apologies again, I value your input greatly.

MM