Multigeneration Labradoodle?

[Tapferhund]

I was under the impression that for a breed to be 'recognised' it must produce True to type for a certain number of generations, I thought 5, but could be wrong, just going by what I was told by someone, somewhere! With the 'labradoodle' this has not happened, there are just too many variations in conformation, coat and temperament from litter to litter and variations within the same litter apparently.

Recognised by whom? (or who?)

Also, I don't think that is the sole or only criteria otherwise the Mini Foxy and others I mentioned in an earlier post would be recognised by now if 'recognised' means by the ANKC.

The Mini Foxie is recognised.....they're now called TT's. When most of the MF clubs were wanting ANKC recognition they were told 'not under the name of MF so change it'......which is what they did. They also had to keep their own registry ...and breeders had to breed 5?7? generations true to type before they could be reciognised. They did this and now the breed is recognised.

Those, clubs and fanciers who chose to stay with the name MF ........are not recognised.

It such a shame the whole lot didn't come on board under the name TT.......as there are some lovely MF bloodlines that are now lost to the gene pool of TT's.

As to labradoodles...they're cross breeds made purely to make money.

Now you and I both know that this is a point of contention amongst the TT breeders and the MF breeders. I don't plan on entering into the debate in that regard, however, they are recognised by both groups as separate breeds and they have separate registries accordingly.

As for your other flippant statement, that's all it is. Flippant and factless.

No Anne , not flippant or factless. The breed(not) was originally designed to try and produce a Guide dog for the blind that had a 'non allergic' coat for clients who were dog allergic..so they could have a Guide dog without worry of suffering allergies. At the time, the media got wind of the "labradoodle" litter and ran extensive coverage on it in papers and on TV ....causing huge interest to the point EVERYONE wanting one of those cute little fluffy puppies.......which resulted in greedy BYB's jumping on the labradoodle bandwagon because they saw an easy way to make big bucks...which many are still doing today. The few so called 'caring'(BS) breeders who breed these dogs today, are STILL making big bucks by charging outrageous prices for dogs which are nothing more than crossbreeds...be it from lab X poodle OR labradoodle X labradoodle.

[WoofnHoof]

I initially thought the name was a barrier and that it should be changed but in reality the name is only an issue for dog purists. In the general public branding is very important and if you try to introduce a new name (ie brand) you have to work very hard to get tat brand or name recognized. The general public already has the 'conept' of the labradoodle in their minds as a non shedding dog with a lab temperament, the trouble has been producing the dog that fits the criteria and breeds true but this could also be in part due to the fact that selective breeding in the modern interpretation is far less severe than in the past. When new breeds were developed in the past any pups that couldn't do the job were culled, these days dogs that don t fit the standard can still be sold as pets and so you have more of the dogs carrying the name but not conforming to the standard than you would in a breed that was 'working' in a different capacity.

Ultimately the main difference I see is that we are living in a different world and different culture than we were when many of our other breeds were being developed.

[Red Fox]

There are 6 parent breeds that make up the "Australian Labradoodle" according to their webpage info.

http://www.laa.org.au/ala-breeder/parentbreeds.htm

They also have their own registry, standard and COE.

Given this info they do seem to be legit and there is obviously much more to a "registered ALA breeder" than there is to a BYB F1 poodle x lab and no doubt you can buy a "multigeneration labradoodle" through this organisation.

But the standard also has 3 accepted sizes and 2 accepted coat types. Different sizes and coat types can be born into the same litter (and no doubt there are still other coat types appearing in those litters that dont meet the written standard).

http://www.laa.org.au/ala-breeder/standard.html

If they are unable to produce a reasonably uniform litter (as in at least all of the same size) one would think that they are still reasonably far away from recognition?

It probably doesn't help that there are so many BYBs cashing in on the trend either and the public belief that a "labradoodle" is simply a lab x poodle, when it appears that it is not.

[Staranais]

If they are unable to produce a reasonably uniform litter (as in at least all of the same size) one would think that they are still reasonably far away from recognition?

This is the case for belgians. Only one size, I admit, but four coat types. From what I understand some countries let the varieties interbreed freely, some not at all, & some only with special permission. Especially in the countries where you can interbreed, you apparently do get malinois popping up in tervuerens litters, tervuerens popping up in groenendael litters, as well as strange combinations like black malinois & laekenois.

[Red Fox]

If they are unable to produce a reasonably uniform litter (as in at least all of the same size) one would think that they are still reasonably far away from recognition?

This is the case for belgians. Only one size, I admit, but four coat types. From what I understand some countries let the varieties interbreed freely, some not at all, & some only with special permission. Especially in the countries where you can interbreed, you apparently do get malinois popping up in tervuerens litters, tervuerens popping up in groenendael litters, as well as strange combinations like black malinois & laekenois.

True, and the same with some other breeds (hairless and powderpuff chinese crested dogs for example) but the variation in litters not to the extreme of the labradoodle IMO.

And with belgians being a working breed I'd think that given the right circumstances, interbreeding is acceptable? (as in you're breeding for working ability of the dogs rather than looks) - plus you're not going to get 3 standard Tervuerens, 2 medium Malinois and 3 mini groenendael in a Belgian litter

Some of the litters listed on the ALA site have for example:

COAT TYPES :: Fleece and Wool

SIZE :: Miniature to Medium

while others have size listed as standard/large or miniature/large miniature along with one or two types of coats, along with mulitudes of different colours and patterns.

It seems like a lot of variation..

[Staranais]

And with belgians being a working breed I'd think that given the right circumstances, interbreeding is acceptable? (as in you're breeding for working ability of the dogs rather than looks) - plus you're not going to get 3 standard Tervuerens, 2 medium Malinois and 3 mini groenendael in a Belgian litter

LOL, mini groenendaels would be funny! I think they're allowed to interbreed here in the varieties with small gene pools, but only certain combinations, e.g. mally & laekenois is allowed, but laekenois & groenendael is not allowed (in case you end up with black curlies). Not sure that the WL mally would benefit from having any other variety introduced, but in general I'm a big fan of allowing inter-variety breeding in sensible combinations.

[Sheridan]

There are 6 parent breeds that make up the "Australian Labradoodle" according to their webpage info.

http://www.laa.org.au/ala-breeder/parentbreeds.htm

They also have their own registry, standard and COE.

Given this info they do seem to be legit and there is obviously much more to a "registered ALA breeder" than there is to a BYB F1 poodle x lab and no doubt you can buy a "multigeneration labradoodle" through this organisation.

But the standard also has 3 accepted sizes and 2 accepted coat types. Different sizes and coat types can be born into the same litter (and no doubt there are still other coat types appearing in those litters that dont meet the written standard).

http://www.laa.org.au/ala-breeder/standard.html

If they are unable to produce a reasonably uniform litter (as in at least all of the same size) one would think that they are still reasonably far away from recognition?

It probably doesn't help that there are so many BYBs cashing in on the trend either and the public belief that a "labradoodle" is simply a lab x poodle, when it appears that it is not.

To be fair, there are differences in some recognised breeds, too, including size and coat type. It's what keeps breed afficionados entertained.

Edited September 4, 2010 by Sheridan

[yarracully]

Don't they have to produce a certain number of litters (generations, not from the same parents) that stay true to the standard aimed for? I thought that was one reason Don B had the s#*!ts with the powers that be because he was close to having the Tenterfield Terrier recognised and then there was a litter that were nothing like the standard?

Don Burke had NOTHING to do with the Tenterfield Terrier being recognised. That was acheived through the hard work of the Tenterfield Terrier club of Australia and its dedicated members. We had to have a true record of five documented generation of true type. AS well there is also a 150 year history to the breed prior to recognition with photos and documentation

Mister Burkes sole contribution was to suggest a name for the breed, that is where his contribution ended. The name was put up for voting on (along with a few others) which was then voted on by the club members.

Edited September 4, 2010 by yarracully

[yarracully]

Don't they have to produce a certain number of litters (generations, not from the same parents) that stay true to the standard aimed for? I thought that was one reason Don B had the s#*!ts with the powers that be because he was close to having the Tenterfield Terrier recognised and then there was a litter that were nothing like the standard?

The Tentie is recognised and is breeding true.

Thank you Anne

[yarracully]

I was under the impression that for a breed to be 'recognised' it must produce True to type for a certain number of generations, I thought 5, but could be wrong, just going by what I was told by someone, somewhere! With the 'labradoodle' this has not happened, there are just too many variations in conformation, coat and temperament from litter to litter and variations within the same litter apparently.

Recognised by whom? (or who?)

Also, I don't think that is the sole or only criteria otherwise the Mini Foxy and others I mentioned in an earlier post would be recognised by now if 'recognised' means by the ANKC.

The Mini Foxie is recognised.....they're now called TT's. When most of the MF clubs were wanting ANKC recognition they were told 'not under the name of MF so change it'......which is what they did. They also had to keep their own registry ...and breeders had to breed 5?7? generations true to type before they could be reciognised. They did this and now the breed is recognised.

Those, clubs and fanciers who chose to stay with the name MF ........are not recognised.

It such a shame the whole lot didn't come on board under the name TT.......as there are some lovely MF bloodlines that are now lost to the gene pool of TT's.

As to labradoodles...they're cross breeds made purely to make money.

Different standards. The ANKC standard for a Tenterfield Terrier is different to the standard put in place by the Mini Foxie club.

[yarracully]

But the standard also has 3 accepted sizes and 2 accepted coat types.

There are a few pure breeds that come in differnet sizes and coats such as the Dachie. However the combination within a litter is an area of concren for me. Especially if labelling as a purebred.

[~Anne~]

I was under the impression that for a breed to be 'recognised' it must produce True to type for a certain number of generations, I thought 5, but could be wrong, just going by what I was told by someone, somewhere! With the 'labradoodle' this has not happened, there are just too many variations in conformation, coat and temperament from litter to litter and variations within the same litter apparently.

Recognised by whom? (or who?)

Also, I don't think that is the sole or only criteria otherwise the Mini Foxy and others I mentioned in an earlier post would be recognised by now if 'recognised' means by the ANKC.

The Mini Foxie is recognised.....they're now called TT's. When most of the MF clubs were wanting ANKC recognition they were told 'not under the name of MF so change it'......which is what they did. They also had to keep their own registry ...and breeders had to breed 5?7? generations true to type before they could be reciognised. They did this and now the breed is recognised.

Those, clubs and fanciers who chose to stay with the name MF ........are not recognised.

It such a shame the whole lot didn't come on board under the name TT.......as there are some lovely MF bloodlines that are now lost to the gene pool of TT's.

As to labradoodles...they're cross breeds made purely to make money.

Now you and I both know that this is a point of contention amongst the TT breeders and the MF breeders. I don't plan on entering into the debate in that regard, however, they are recognised by both groups as separate breeds and they have separate registries accordingly.

As for your other flippant statement, that's all it is. Flippant and factless.

No Anne , not flippant or factless. The breed(not) was originally designed to try and produce a Guide dog for the blind that had a 'non allergic' coat for clients who were dog allergic..so they could have a Guide dog without worry of suffering allergies. At the time, the media got wind of the "labradoodle" litter and ran extensive coverage on it in papers and on TV ....causing huge interest to the point EVERYONE wanting one of those cute little fluffy puppies.......which resulted in greedy BYB's jumping on the labradoodle bandwagon because they saw an easy way to make big bucks...which many are still doing today. The few so called 'caring'(BS) breeders who breed these dogs today, are STILL making big bucks by charging outrageous prices for dogs which are nothing more than crossbreeds...be it from lab X poodle OR labradoodle X labradoodle.

I am well aware of how the concept of a Labradoodle evolved. Making oversized and factless allegations that all Labradoodle breeders (or all bybs for that matter) are only breeding for money shows a very limited and poorly thought out argument. It is like saying all APBTs are aggressive dogs.

[~Midniara~]

If they are unable to produce a reasonably uniform litter (as in at least all of the same size) one would think that they are still reasonably far away from recognition?

This is the case for belgians. Only one size, I admit, but four coat types. From what I understand some countries let the varieties interbreed freely, some not at all, & some only with special permission. Especially in the countries where you can interbreed, you apparently do get malinois popping up in tervuerens litters, tervuerens popping up in groenendael litters, as well as strange combinations like black malinois & laekenois.

True, and the same with some other breeds (hairless and powderpuff chinese crested dogs for example) but the variation in litters not to the extreme of the labradoodle IMO.

And with belgians being a working breed I'd think that given the right circumstances, interbreeding is acceptable? (as in you're breeding for working ability of the dogs rather than looks) - plus you're not going to get 3 standard Tervuerens, 2 medium Malinois and 3 mini groenendael in a Belgian litter :D

Some of the litters listed on the ALA site have for example:

COAT TYPES :: Fleece and Wool

SIZE :: Miniature to Medium

while others have size listed as standard/large or miniature/large miniature along with one or two types of coats, along with mulitudes of different colours and patterns.

It seems like a lot of variation..

And with belgians being a working breed I'd think that given the right circumstances, interbreeding is acceptable? (as in you're breeding for working ability of the dogs rather than looks) - plus you're not going to get 3 standard Tervuerens, 2 medium Malinois and 3 mini groenendael in a Belgian litter

LOL, mini groenendaels would be funny! I think they're allowed to interbreed here in the varieties with small gene pools, but only certain combinations, e.g. mally & laekenois is allowed, but laekenois & groenendael is not allowed (in case you end up with black curlies). Not sure that the WL mally would benefit from having any other variety introduced, but in general I'm a big fan of allowing inter-variety breeding in sensible combinations.

Sorry a little here.

Up until a few years ago we used to be able to intervariety breed Belgians but only between the following combinations:

Groenendael x Tervueren

Tervueren x Malinois

Malinois x Laekenois

Now intervariety breeding is prohibited in Australia UNLESS the mating is approved by the ANKC. This can be done by preparing a submission at least 6 months prior to the proposed mating giving reasons why the proposed mating would be of benefit to the breed.

For the rarer variety like the Laekenois such a case would be easier to prove than the more common varieties such as the Groenendael and Tervuerens.

Edited September 4, 2010 by ~Midniara~

[whitka]

Aidan you have been pretty spot on there.

The founders have tried to change the name and set up many organstions to help set up a standard and protect the dogs but there was always someone who wanted to do things there way and so back to square one.

I dont know about the others but the founders used 4 different breeds for different purposes at different times to help create a breed type.

[WoofnHoof]

I've seen it mentioned a few times that the labradoodle is only being bred for looks (ie as opposed to the more 'legitimate' purpose working ability) however it's important to remember that the lab is one of the most popular and well known breeds so if people want a lab temperament but not the lab coat what do they do? People always suggest other breeds with non shedding coats but to my understanding most if not all of those breeds do not share the temperament of the labrador.

Just a thought that temperament and coat suitability for a pet might be just as legitimate a purpose as working ability given that a lot of the 'work' of most dogs these days involves being a pet.

[Red Fox]

I've seen it mentioned a few times that the labradoodle is only being bred for looks (ie as opposed to the more 'legitimate' purpose working ability) however it's important to remember that the lab is one of the most popular and well known breeds so if people want a lab temperament but not the lab coat what do they do? People always suggest other breeds with non shedding coats but to my understanding most if not all of those breeds do not share the temperament of the labrador.

Just a thought that temperament and coat suitability for a pet might be just as legitimate a purpose as working ability given that a lot of the 'work' of most dogs these days involves being a pet.

Not sure I agree with this. Often (in the buyers mind) the 'non shedding' coat is a matter of convenience rather than necessity. If they are wanting a lab without the coat then they are obviously not wanting a lab after all and should look for a more suitable breed. Chances are that if they do buy a labradoodle then not only will it still shed but the coat will be a LOT more work for them.

Think about it, if something as minor as a shedding coat is going to be an inconvenience for someone what's the rest of the dog going to be?

If the non shedding coat is a genuine necessity (due to owner suffering severe allergies, asthma, etc.) then you would think they would be spending a great deal of time looking into suitable breeds that are guaranteed not to shed - it is their health after all.

[Sheridan]

I've seen it mentioned a few times that the labradoodle is only being bred for looks (ie as opposed to the more 'legitimate' purpose working ability) however it's important to remember that the lab is one of the most popular and well known breeds so if people want a lab temperament but not the lab coat what do they do? People always suggest other breeds with non shedding coats but to my understanding most if not all of those breeds do not share the temperament of the labrador.

Just a thought that temperament and coat suitability for a pet might be just as legitimate a purpose as working ability given that a lot of the 'work' of most dogs these days involves being a pet.

And what if they want a lab temperament and not the lab coat so get a labradoodle but they get the poodle temperament and the lab coat?

Just a thought ...

[baykinz]

I've seen it mentioned a few times that the labradoodle is only being bred for looks (ie as opposed to the more 'legitimate' purpose working ability) however it's important to remember that the lab is one of the most popular and well known breeds so if people want a lab temperament but not the lab coat what do they do? People always suggest other breeds with non shedding coats but to my understanding most if not all of those breeds do not share the temperament of the labrador.

Just a thought that temperament and coat suitability for a pet might be just as legitimate a purpose as working ability given that a lot of the 'work' of most dogs these days involves being a pet.

And what if they want a lab temperament and not the lab coat so get a labradoodle but they get the poodle temperament and the lab coat?

Just a thought ...

Surely, though, the purpose of attempting to legitimise an Australian Labradoodle breed is to eventually prevent this pot luck nature of buying a puppy by developing a dog that breeds true to the desired temperament and coat type?

However, I think that even if people did manage to refine the breed so that it was breeding true and was accepted by the ANKC, the average pet puppy buyer interested in labradoodles wouldn't understand or be interested in researching the difference between a 'purebred Australian Labradoodle' and a Poodle x Labrador when the latter is so readily available.

[Shmurps]

I've seen it mentioned a few times that the labradoodle is only being bred for looks (ie as opposed to the more 'legitimate' purpose working ability) however it's important to remember that the lab is one of the most popular and well known breeds so if people want a lab temperament but not the lab coat what do they do? People always suggest other breeds with non shedding coats but to my understanding most if not all of those breeds do not share the temperament of the labrador.

Just a thought that temperament and coat suitability for a pet might be just as legitimate a purpose as working ability given that a lot of the 'work' of most dogs these days involves being a pet.

Not sure I agree with this. Often (in the buyers mind) the 'non shedding' coat is a matter of convenience rather than necessity. If they are wanting a lab without the coat then they are obviously not wanting a lab after all and should look for a more suitable breed. Chances are that if they do buy a labradoodle then not only will it still shed but the coat will be a LOT more work for them.

Think about it, if something as minor as a shedding coat is going to be an inconvenience for someone what's the rest of the dog going to be?

If the non shedding coat is a genuine necessity (due to owner suffering severe allergies, asthma, etc.) then you would think they would be spending a great deal of time looking into suitable breeds that are guaranteed not to shed - it is their health after all.

Exactly.

And the owners that I have seen with the poodle crosses have no idea how to look after them.

It was only yest after popping in to a friends grooming salon that this persons 12 month old labradoodle,for the 3rd time, had to have it's whole

coat taken off virtually in one peace as was just one big mat.

This is why I don't call in there too often because it's every time.

[poodlemum]

I've seen it mentioned a few times that the labradoodle is only being bred for looks (ie as opposed to the more 'legitimate' purpose working ability) however it's important to remember that the lab is one of the most popular and well known breeds so if people want a lab temperament but not the lab coat what do they do? People always suggest other breeds with non shedding coats but to my understanding most if not all of those breeds do not share the temperament of the labrador.

Just a thought that temperament and coat suitability for a pet might be just as legitimate a purpose as working ability given that a lot of the 'work' of most dogs these days involves being a pet.

And what if they want a lab temperament and not the lab coat so get a labradoodle but they get the poodle temperament and the lab coat?

Just a thought ...

You mean a smartarse dog that sheds like nothing on earth?

Seriously, though, people have a strange idea of what the Poodle temperament is. Poodles were, after all, originally bred for water retrieving and can still be all-purpose utility dogs. Amongst dogs I have bred are those with Tracking titles, Herding titles & general Obedience titles. Poodles are also VERY people-orientated.