Traumatic Experience

[malsrock]

Dogs parks are risky places, that is for sure. However, I'm serious when I say that if a particular dog is dog aggressive, whether it's with all other dogs in all situations or just when it is approached whilst on lead in a dog park and it is likely to do serious damage to the other dog, it shouldn't be there.

When walking my dogs, I'm approached by off leash dogs in the street regularly and that's a different story and they have been attacked. Of course the owners should not let their dogs wander, they can be attack or be attacked by dogs who are being walked on lead by responsible owners or hit by a car.

Taking a dog aggressive dog to a dog park, even if on the lead is not responsible. It's like giving a paedophile a job in a kindergarten - something's likely to happen sooner or later.

At one of our large local dog off leash parks a couple of years ago I saw a woman with a staffy on a lead in the middle of the park. I was picking up one of my dog's poop and walking towards the bin when I heard a yelp. Yes, it was one of my friendly little dogs weighing about 4.5 kilos who'd gone up to say hello to the staffy (not bounce, not attack but yes, guilty of being friendly with other dogs). I rushed over and the woman said "My dog doesn't like other dogs, I told your dog to go away but he didn't".

Should I have walked in reverse towards the bin so I could have watched 100% of the time? It's not realistic.

I still cannot understand why she put everyone elses' dogs at risk and told her just that. Antisocial dogs don't belong there.

I totally agree Dogmad, but we can't control who visits a dog park and what type of dog will be taken there and sure enough one day, someone's dog will cop a flogging. My point is, my dog will never cop one in a dog park because I don't visit dog parks to expose my dogs to risks of high probability.

Fiona

[aussielover]

Not to mention all the crap about labradors; i am SO SICK of lab-bashing; I have a lab myself as have many other people, and I don't need to list their virtues. It amazes me that labs are blamed for being 'exuberant' 'overfriendly' when nothing is said about the rude and aggro dogs who haven't been socialised and can't handle a dog coming up to sniff them, which IS normal dog behaviour.

There is a HUGE difference between a dog politely approaching another one and sniffing it and a dog rushing up to another dog, getting in its face, completely disregarding the other dogs body language, and being plain rude. I see this with labs ALL the time, and no its not just restricted to that breed, but if I hear one more person with an over the top, rude dog who allows it to rush up and get in the face of whatever dog it pleases, tell me their dog is "just being friendly and saying hello" I will have to shoot someone

I feel the same way Huski

:D I agree Huski. I have lost count the amount of times i have heard the old 'my dog is friendly/ just wants to say hello'. Thats ok but not my problem when my very reactive dogs bites your friendly dog on the nose.

If your dog is "very reactive" shouldn't you have it muzzled?

It is normal for dog to have a sniff when greeting, even if a dog is boisterous or over enthusiastic, I would expect a balanced dog to at most, give a "telling off" not a full on bite.

If my dog had ever injured another dog, no way would i take it to an off leash park unless muzzled.

[Guest Clover]

Not to mention all the crap about labradors; i am SO SICK of lab-bashing; I have a lab myself as have many other people, and I don't need to list their virtues. It amazes me that labs are blamed for being 'exuberant' 'overfriendly' when nothing is said about the rude and aggro dogs who haven't been socialised and can't handle a dog coming up to sniff them, which IS normal dog behaviour.

There is a HUGE difference between a dog politely approaching another one and sniffing it and a dog rushing up to another dog, getting in its face, completely disregarding the other dogs body language, and being plain rude. I see this with labs ALL the time, and no its not just restricted to that breed, but if I hear one more person with an over the top, rude dog who allows it to rush up and get in the face of whatever dog it pleases, tell me their dog is "just being friendly and saying hello" I will have to shoot someone

I feel the same way Huski

:D I agree Huski. I have lost count the amount of times i have heard the old 'my dog is friendly/ just wants to say hello'. Thats ok but not my problem when my very reactive dogs bites your friendly dog on the nose.

If your dog is "very reactive" shouldn't you have it muzzled?

It is normal for dog to have a sniff when greeting, even if a dog is boisterous or over enthusiastic, I would expect a balanced dog to at most, give a "telling off" not a full on bite.

If my dog had ever injured another dog, no way would i take it to an off leash park unless muzzled.

Not when i am walking somewhere that dogs are suppose to be onlead, or allowed off lead but under control . Mine is under control he is with me, bot off bothering anyone else. We dont go to dog parks for the simple reason is most think it a big free for all and let their dogs run feral.

[malsrock]

Ok, from another perspective and taking everything discussed into account, how can the dog park situation be fixed so that every dog who enters is safe???

What's the plan of action in an area that can be accessed freely by anyone???

Fiona

[labsrule]

Ok, from another perspective and taking everything discussed into account, how can the dog park situation be fixed so that every dog who enters is safe???

What's the plan of action in an area that can be accessed freely by anyone???

Fiona

This thread is now bordering on the ridiculous, it's like asking how can we make everyone safe in the world - it aint going to happen. I don't know why you want to prolong this discussion as you don't even take your perfect dogs to a dog park/unleashed area and let them play with other dogs, so why bother asking for the impossible :D

[Staranais]

Ok, from another perspective and taking everything discussed into account, how can the dog park situation be fixed so that every dog who enters is safe???

What's the plan of action in an area that can be accessed freely by anyone???

Fiona :D

Nice idea but IMO impossible! Hence why I don't go to most dog parks.

There will always be people who take aggressive dogs to dog parks.

There will always be people who let dogs without an effective recall run off leash.

There will always be people who don't supervise their dogs properly.

There will always be people who expect every dog in the park to be completely non-reactive.

There will always be people at the park who can't read dog body language and have no idea what appropriate play is.

Edited to add: and all these people will probably always continue to blame each other for incidents in the dog park!

Edited September 4, 2010 by Staranais

[malsrock]

Ok, from another perspective and taking everything discussed into account, how can the dog park situation be fixed so that every dog who enters is safe???

What's the plan of action in an area that can be accessed freely by anyone???

Fiona :D

Nice idea but IMO impossible! Hence why I don't go to most dog parks.

There will always be people who take aggressive dogs to dog parks.

There will always be people who let dogs without an effective recall run off leash.

There will always be people who don't supervise their dogs properly.

There will always be people who expect every dog in the park to be completely non-reactive.

There will always be people at the park who can't read dog body language and have no idea what appropriate play is.

Edited to add: and all these people will probably always continue to blame each other for incidents in the dog park.

That's an excellent summary of the situation Staranais and is really the cold hard facts of the dog park situation unfortunately, and people just have to assess for themselves if it's right for them. The problem is, you can't fix it and it's simply the way it is.

Fiona

Edited September 4, 2010 by malsrock

[poochiemama]

I agree Huski. I have lost count the amount of times i have heard the old 'my dog is friendly/ just wants to say hello'. Thats ok but not my problem when my very reactive dogs bites your friendly dog on the nose.

If your dog is "very reactive" shouldn't you have it muzzled?

It is normal for dog to have a sniff when greeting, even if a dog is boisterous or over enthusiastic, I would expect a balanced dog to at most, give a "telling off" not a full on bite.

If my dog had ever injured another dog, no way would i take it to an off leash park unless muzzled.

Not when i am walking somewhere that dogs are suppose to be onlead, or allowed off lead but under control . Mine is under control he is with me, bot off bothering anyone else. We dont go to dog parks for the simple reason is most think it a big free for all and let their dogs run feral.

i don't think letting dogs run in a dog park, PLAYING with each other, is really letting them run 'feral'. To me, feral is when a dog can't handle another dog coming up to it and gives it a nasty bite for saying hello. I understand there are reactive dogs around, that's just life, but i think it's twisted logic to blame the friendly dogs for coming up to them. I'm sorry, i just don't get that logic. Flame me all you want.

[huski]

i don't think letting dogs run in a dog park, PLAYING with each other, is really letting them run 'feral'. To me, feral is when a dog can't handle another dog coming up to it and gives it a nasty bite for saying hello. I understand there are reactive dogs around, that's just life, but i think it's twisted logic to blame the friendly dogs for coming up to them. I'm sorry, i just don't get that logic. Flame me all you want.

But what is your definition of a dog "coming up to say hello"?

I have lost count of the number of owners whose "friendly" dogs are anything but.

[poochiemama]

Look, I can understand if the dog is in the other dogs personal space , jumping near it, trying to play with it when its' on leash. But in this situation, my dog , yes, she did run over there as he was quite far away but she stopped short of his personal space, she was actually walking behind him and trying to sniff him and he turned around and snapped.

I just heard the whole 'the dog is rude and in his face' reason used as an excuse SO many times when a dog has bitten another as i have said in previous posts - there were serious attacks at my old dog park which i witnessed by dogs which have been aggressive time and time again, with very little stimulus required from other dogs to precipitate this. It just really upsets me that this is used as a reason to excuse people taking their dog reactive/dog aggressive dogs to these sort of places.

I love dogs, reactive or not, and if I had a dog reactive dog, yes, I would be anxious about dogs coming up to it too, of course. But i would do my utmost to take my dog to places this is unlikely to happen. And if my dog did bite another dog, you can be sure i wouldn't be blaming the other dogs, no matter HOW exuberant or friendly. If my dog did the biting, I would take responsibility for that because I put him in a situation where it was likely to happen.

I know dog-aggression and human-aggression are two different things. But would you take your child-aggressive dog to a kindergarden? And if it bit a kid, would you blame the kid for getting in his face?

I feel very strongly about this issue, not just because of Hannah, but on principle. I think we make too many excuses for our dogs and need to take responsibility for their actions. I took responsibility for Hannah's actions; I agree that it wasn't a great idea for her to run over there. However, it gets my back up when people with dog reactive dogs then started saying it's never their dogs fault if it bites, and things like 'if your 'friendly dog' comes up to mine, don't be surprised if it gets a nasty bite on the nose' like it's something to be proud of.

[huski]

I'm not commenting directly on what happened with you and your dog, poochiemama, because I wasn't there to see what happens. I am talking about dogs generally, not yours specifically.

The problem is that it is completely normal for a dog to tell another one off for being rude (again I'm not saying this is what happened to you). All too often I see what Suzanne Clothier described in her article play out: a dog blamed for being 'reactive' when it was simply telling a rude and inappropriate dog to back off.

My youngest dog is pretty unreactive. The vast majority of the time she has little interest in other dogs and apart from the odd sniff will tend to completely ignore them. However, even she will snap at a dog that gets too in her face or tries to do something like hump her, would you class her as 'reactive' simply because she will respond to another dog's rude behaviour?

I agree with you that far too many make excuses for their dogs bad behaviour, or at least they are too ignorant of canine body language to know how to read a situation clearly. I've seen dogs who snap at others grabbed and punished by their owners, when the snapping was totally warranted and the other dog was clearly the instigator. Sometimes it feels like unless and dog is being obviously aggressive (i.e. bites another dog) any other behaviour is classed as socially acceptable and 'just dogs being dogs' by their owners.

Edited September 4, 2010 by huski

[poochiemama]

I'm not commenting directly on what happened with you and your dog, poochiemama, because I wasn't there to see what happens. I am talking about dogs generally, not yours specifically.

The problem is that it is completely normal for a dog to tell another one off for being rude (again I'm not saying this is what happened to you). All too often I see what Suzanne Clothier described in her article play out: a dog blamed for being 'reactive' when it was simply telling a rude and inappropriate dog to back off.

My youngest dog is pretty unreactive. The vast majority of the time she has little interest in other dogs and apart from the odd sniff will tend to completely ignore them. However, even she will snap at a dog that gets too in her face or tries to do something like hump her, would you class her as 'reactive' simply because she will respond to another dog's rude behaviour?

I agree with you that far too many make excuses for their dogs bad behaviour, or at least they are too ignorant of canine body language to know how to read a situation clearly. I've seen dogs who snap at others grabbed and punished by their owners, when the snapping was totally warranted and the other dog was clearly the instigator. Sometimes it feels like unless and dog is being obviously aggressive (i.e. bites another dog) any other behaviour is classed as socially acceptable and 'just dogs being dogs' by their owners.

Huski i do agree with this post completely.

I would classify as 'rude' if a dog is trying to hump another dog, or jumping on another dog who is on lead. I agree that sometimes 'snapping' or a 'warning growl' is completely natural and warranted in some situations. Hannah herself does this when she's overwhelmed by a young puppy for instance or when a dog is repeatedly humping her (whilst dog owner just stands around chatting of course); i don't punish her for this as its natural. If she was the one humping/jumping etc she would be told off.

I wouldn't classify these dogs as 'reactive'. But a warning is a very different thing to a full on attack and bite with injury, especially when the situation does not seem to warrant that.

These are the dogs I am worried about walking around in offlead parks. Whether or not they are on lead, they can cause serious injury. And then the cycle perpetuates, with dogs becoming fear aggressive etc

I don't think there are any solutions to these things. I really am considering not taking them to these dog parks anymore.

[Sheridan]

i don't think letting dogs run in a dog park, PLAYING with each other, is really letting them run 'feral'. To me, feral is when a dog can't handle another dog coming up to it and gives it a nasty bite for saying hello. I understand there are reactive dogs around, that's just life, but i think it's twisted logic to blame the friendly dogs for coming up to them. I'm sorry, i just don't get that logic. Flame me all you want.

Logic: if you'd hadn't allowed your dog to bounce up to the other dog, the incident wouldn't have happened.

[malsrock]

'poochiemama' date='4th Sep 2010 - 11:02 PM' post='4789037'

I feel very strongly about this issue, not just because of Hannah, but on principle. I think we make too many excuses for our dogs and need to take responsibility for their actions. I took responsibility for Hannah's actions; I agree that it wasn't a great idea for her to run over there. However, it gets my back up when people with dog reactive dogs then started saying it's never their dogs fault if it bites, and things like 'if your 'friendly dog' comes up to mine, don't be surprised if it gets a nasty bite on the nose' like it's something to be proud of.

You are missing the point Poochiemama, it's too late to argue about who is right or wrong when your dog has an eye missing or half it's snout bitten off and right or wrong won't undo the trauma that either you and your dog has suffered. You WILL encounter aggressive dogs in dog parks along with the irresponsible owners who take them there which is a problem beyond your control.

There are two options..........keep going to dog parks and take a punt that your dog will be safe, or make alternative arrangements for exercising your dog somewhere else that is safer. Your dog will be far happier long term lacking in the stereotypical socialisation of dog parks, than having the fun of doing so and the trauma of having half it's face ripped off in the process.

Fiona

Edited September 4, 2010 by malsrock

[poochiemama]

malrock, i'm with you on that one, i don't think blaming is the answer here, i have reiterated this in my posts again and again.

And I AM seriously rethinking the dog park issue.

But I have had to respond to people like sheridan who insist on passing the blame and making this a finger-pointing issue. It's unhelpful. But frankly sheridan i have address the sort of comment you just made multiple times so i'm not going there again, you havent seem to have gotten the point and i'm banging my head against a brick wall.

[Bubitty]

Look, I can understand if the dog is in the other dogs personal space , jumping near it, trying to play with it when its' on leash. But in this situation, my dog , yes, she did run over there as he was quite far away but she stopped short of his personal space, she was actually walking behind him and trying to sniff him and he turned around and snapped.

I just heard the whole 'the dog is rude and in his face' reason used as an excuse SO many times when a dog has bitten another as i have said in previous posts - there were serious attacks at my old dog park which i witnessed by dogs which have been aggressive time and time again, with very little stimulus required from other dogs to precipitate this. It just really upsets me that this is used as a reason to excuse people taking their dog reactive/dog aggressive dogs to these sort of places.

I love dogs, reactive or not, and if I had a dog reactive dog, yes, I would be anxious about dogs coming up to it too, of course. But i would do my utmost to take my dog to places this is unlikely to happen. And if my dog did bite another dog, you can be sure i wouldn't be blaming the other dogs, no matter HOW exuberant or friendly. If my dog did the biting, I would take responsibility for that because I put him in a situation where it was likely to happen.

I know dog-aggression and human-aggression are two different things. But would you take your child-aggressive dog to a kindergarden? And if it bit a kid, would you blame the kid for getting in his face?

I feel very strongly about this issue, not just because of Hannah, but on principle. I think we make too many excuses for our dogs and need to take responsibility for their actions. I took responsibility for Hannah's actions; I agree that it wasn't a great idea for her to run over there. However, it gets my back up when people with dog reactive dogs then started saying it's never their dogs fault if it bites, and things like 'if your 'friendly dog' comes up to mine, don't be surprised if it gets a nasty bite on the nose' like it's something to be proud of.

I completely and utterly agree with this post. Being on Dol and hearing of so many "reactive" dogs I NEVER let my dogs run up to any strange dog, to say hello, bounce or otherwise. BUT as far as good breeding and good temperaments go I expect my dogs to be able to handle a dog bouncing up to them and not lose the plot. My breeder would be deeply concerned if one of the dogs she sold me bit another dog simply because it bounced up to her/him.

I do not let my dogs get harassed or heckled in the dog park. They are always supervised and I step in to protect them if they are being hassled, however I expect them to be tolerant enough not to bite another dog just because it happens to be rude. I too am sick of people acting like their DA/"reactive" dog is perfectly normal!

[Sheridan]

malrock, i'm with you on that one, i don't think blaming is the answer here, i have reiterated this in my posts again and again.

And I AM seriously rethinking the dog park issue.

But I have had to respond to people like sheridan who insist on passing the blame and making this a finger-pointing issue. It's unhelpful. But frankly sheridan i have address the sort of comment you just made multiple times so i'm not going there again, you havent seem to have gotten the point and i'm banging my head against a brick wall.

Given that the post I responded to was in part this:

i think it's twisted logic to blame the friendly dogs for coming up to them.

I'd say you're the one who doesn't get it and probably never will, so I'll leave you to it.

[malsrock]

malrock, i'm with you on that one, i don't think blaming is the answer here, i have reiterated this in my posts again and again.

And I AM seriously rethinking the dog park issue.

But I have had to respond to people like sheridan who insist on passing the blame and making this a finger-pointing issue. It's unhelpful. But frankly sheridan i have address the sort of comment you just made multiple times so i'm not going there again, you havent seem to have gotten the point and i'm banging my head against a brick wall.

I would definitely re-think any situation if my dogs were injured and try and work how I can lessen the risk in the future. The dog park routine is fine for a few known friendly and non reactive dogs to zoom around with each and play if you and your dog enjoy that, BUT it's the other element that dog parks also attract which are of an unknown quantity often determined when it's too late to respond and a dog has already been injured.

If I was in your shoes Poochiemama, I think I would say phewww, I was lucky and my dog's injuries could have been worse and from now on, I will make sure that she never suffers like that again???.

Fiona

[malsrock]

Look, I can understand if the dog is in the other dogs personal space , jumping near it, trying to play with it when its' on leash. But in this situation, my dog , yes, she did run over there as he was quite far away but she stopped short of his personal space, she was actually walking behind him and trying to sniff him and he turned around and snapped.

I just heard the whole 'the dog is rude and in his face' reason used as an excuse SO many times when a dog has bitten another as i have said in previous posts - there were serious attacks at my old dog park which i witnessed by dogs which have been aggressive time and time again, with very little stimulus required from other dogs to precipitate this. It just really upsets me that this is used as a reason to excuse people taking their dog reactive/dog aggressive dogs to these sort of places.

I love dogs, reactive or not, and if I had a dog reactive dog, yes, I would be anxious about dogs coming up to it too, of course. But i would do my utmost to take my dog to places this is unlikely to happen. And if my dog did bite another dog, you can be sure i wouldn't be blaming the other dogs, no matter HOW exuberant or friendly. If my dog did the biting, I would take responsibility for that because I put him in a situation where it was likely to happen.

I know dog-aggression and human-aggression are two different things. But would you take your child-aggressive dog to a kindergarden? And if it bit a kid, would you blame the kid for getting in his face?

I feel very strongly about this issue, not just because of Hannah, but on principle. I think we make too many excuses for our dogs and need to take responsibility for their actions. I took responsibility for Hannah's actions; I agree that it wasn't a great idea for her to run over there. However, it gets my back up when people with dog reactive dogs then started saying it's never their dogs fault if it bites, and things like 'if your 'friendly dog' comes up to mine, don't be surprised if it gets a nasty bite on the nose' like it's something to be proud of.

I completely and utterly agree with this post. Being on Dol and hearing of so many "reactive" dogs I NEVER let my dogs run up to any strange dog, to say hello, bounce or otherwise. BUT as far as good breeding and good temperaments go I expect my dogs to be able to handle a dog bouncing up to them and not lose the plot. My breeder would be deeply concerned if one of the dogs she sold me bit another dog simply because it bounced up to her/him.

I do not let my dogs get harassed or heckled in the dog park. They are always supervised and I step in to protect them if they are being hassled, however I expect them to be tolerant enough not to bite another dog just because it happens to be rude. I too am sick of people acting like their DA/"reactive" dog is perfectly normal!

Not all dogs found at the dog park to contend with will be of stable breedings with quality temperaments Bub, which is the problem when you can't prevent those dogs and their owners from entering the park and mingling with others???

Fiona

[poochiemama]

Yeah malsrock,

I am rethinking it. I am loathe to stop the dog park experience altogether, maybe i'll take them at quieter times. Although at the moment, i can't do it as i'd be too nervous.

Bub, thank you for your support - it's nice to know i'm not the only one who feels this way. by the way your dogs are adorable!

wow, i cant' believe how much debate this thread generated . it's a heated issue I guess.