Traumatic Experience

[Aidan3]

Perhaps it would help if you defined what socialisation means to you, Malsrock? The suggestion seems to be that dogs end up at one end or the other of extremes if allowed to socialise, so I'm just wondering whether you are referring to puppy free-for-alls or dog park derbies, or something more sensible?

[Golden Rules]

The prevailing opinion here seems to be that reactive, aggressive dogs are fine and normal, whereas friendly, sometimes rude dogs have horrible owners who never train them

But I agree with Aidan, no blame is needed here, dogs are dogs and accidents happen.

;)

Hi Aussielover,

Can you explain why you think it's important for off leash interactions with other dogs please I am looking to understand the benefits of doing so and what is achieved above a dog that isn't permitted such an experience or freedom.

Thanks

Fiona

Don't want to answer for her, but for me the reason is enrichment and enjoyment. The same reason I give them different and challenging toys, or teach them tricks, or take them to new places on the weekend.

to all of the above, and also teaching your dog to deal with certain behaviours which aren't always 'acceptable'.

I'm not making any presumptions about whose fault it was in the OP.

I just like to post this article when discussions such as these come up as I think it's a gem.

He Just Wants to Say Hi!

I love that this gets held up so often as an example and yet so often we hear you can't compare dogs and humans, it apples and oranges

[malsrock]

I am not purposely being offensive to anyone but considering these type of situations come up regularly the simple answer to these scenarios is "don't do it". Don't take your dog to off leash dog parks etc to mingle with strange dogs because it's an accident waiting to happen. We can't control or know how other peoples dogs may behave and there is always the chance of people owning reactive dogs which they can't control or can't be bothered to control being there also that can and will attack your dog. It's bad enough counteracting off leash dogs in leashed areas on the street and paths, but letting your dog loose amoungst strange dogs to play gives me shivers up my spine just thinking about the risks involved in these practices.

Just my honest thoughts on the matter in general

Fiona

I could not agree with you more.

Why people use dog parks is beyond my imagination.

Dog Parks to me are disasters waiting to happen.

To prove my point just read all about them on DOL.

Yes, there are too many dog park stories for my liking too and likewise believe it is a disaster waiting to happen, totally agree it's playing roulette with your pet's safety IMHO

Fiona ;)

JMHO

[Staff'n'Toller]

The prevailing opinion here seems to be that reactive, aggressive dogs are fine and normal, whereas friendly, sometimes rude dogs have horrible owners who never train them

But I agree with Aidan, no blame is needed here, dogs are dogs and accidents happen.

;)

Hi Aussielover,

Can you explain why you think it's important for off leash interactions with other dogs please I am looking to understand the benefits of doing so and what is achieved above a dog that isn't permitted such an experience or freedom.

Thanks

Fiona

Don't want to answer for her, but for me the reason is enrichment and enjoyment. The same reason I give them different and challenging toys, or teach them tricks, or take them to new places on the weekend.

to all of the above, and also teaching your dog to deal with certain behaviours which aren't always 'acceptable'.

I'm not making any presumptions about whose fault it was in the OP.

I just like to post this article when discussions such as these come up as I think it's a gem.

He Just Wants to Say Hi!

I love that this gets held up so often as an example and yet so often we hear you can't compare dogs and humans, it apples and oranges

Sometimes we have to anthropomorphise, so people 'get it'. ;)

[malsrock]

The man with the vicious dog should not be in there, even if he is on the edge of the park!!! Why would you even tempt fate by doing this? He should also have his dog muzzled at all times.

unfortunately you can't control what other people do. Yoiu can only control what you do.

I do go to an offleash park, but at the crack of dawn or late evening (when we have day light savings time). I don't let my dogs play with stangers, but let them play with the dogs that they know. If they tried to approach other dogs (which they generally don't) I call them and they come running back to me. If there is any dog that looks like it isn't being controlled I leave immediately - even if they are on the other side of the park.

I believe dogs need off leash time. My dogs lenjoy playing with their friends. You just have to try to minimise the risks.

Sheridan - on leash doesn't mean "under control". If your dog attacks another dog then it isn't under effective control.ETA: AussieLover - the OP said that the skin was broken. Even if it wasn't, just because skin isn't broken doesn't mean that an attack didn't happen. My girl attacked my boy a few months ago - it was full on and there was no denying her intention - no skin was broken because he was due for a clip and she got a good dose of fur instead.

That's incorrect. A leashed dog will "ALWAYS" have priority in benefit of the doubt over an unleashed dog invading it's personal space. You will never win a court judgement with an incident involving an unleashed dog versus one restrained on a leash ;)

Fiona

[labsrule]

Why does it always have to be someone's fault? She was in an off-leash area, mistakes happen.

Of course it is someone's fault you should know there can never be any mistakes/accidents with dogs, particularly at offleash areas ;) - these type of threads always deteriorate

Its the evil Labs I tell ya! Someway, somewhere, sometime an evil bouncing lab managed to cause this incident, all the other incidents and global warming!!!

;) Just as well our poor evil labbies have big shoulders , they have to bear the burden of causing so many problems bouncing around the dog parks greeting all those unfriendlies Just think how boring the dog parks would be without one of our evil labbies in it stirring up trouble let alone how quiet these type of threads would be without a Lab being mentioned

[malsrock]

Whatever you do, do not start avoiding socialisation with other dogs because that's when you will start to have a problem. So if you're not going to go to the dog park anymore socialise with dogs you know or only let your dog off at the park with trusted dogs.

Perhaps do some work with a trainer/behaviourist to help you manage situations when they occurs?

I disagree totally with stereotypical "socialisation" and the need for dogs to interact with others, IMHO they don't. They need to be aware of other dogs and learn to ignore them is best. When they learn the enjoyment of other dogs, is when they play up seeing one and misbehave on the leash. Friendly dogs want to play, reactive dogs want to fight and the way I like it, is a dog that doesn't care about other dogs and has no interest in them taking the sighting of other dogs in their stride.

Fiona ;)

They don't need to ignore them - that's what you want - and that is fine if that is the method of training you conduct.

HOWEVER for a dog that has had a bad experience ceasing all socialising is NOT a good thing.

Edited: When I say socialising I'm not neccessarily talking about dog parks (I'm not a fan of them personaly).

I believe in neutralisation of dogs especially if you want them to work with you - BUT the average joe blogs likes their dogs to have dog mates and go to parks so if they're going to do that and don't know how to handle their dog in-case of an incccident a session with a Behaviourist would not go astray.

When people start AVOIDING that is when problems start after an inccident.

So....next time you wanna jump on the bandwagon can I suggest you don't make assumptions as to what you believe people meant - maybe ask a few more questions?

Hi Sas,

I haven't provided a view about handling a dog after a bad experience which appears the essence of you post I explained the way I like my dogs to ignor other dogs and to brutally honest, if the OP's dog was conditioned/trained as mine are, this post and others pertaining to similar incidents and circumstances wouldn't exist. Socialise, socialise, socialise, is driven home to dog owners in a cult like fashion who think they are doing the responsible thing in their dog's best interest that above all else, they must learn to play together. But my question in opposition to that is: What for and what does it achieve???.

I have provided my opinion and explanation to the contrary and I would love to hear other opinions for the reasons why dogs learning to play together is a good thing and hopefully I will learn something from what others with alternate opinions can share.

Fiona

[malsrock]

[sheridan - on leash doesn't mean "under control". If your dog attacks another dog then it isn't under effective control.

megan

The on lead dog was as under control as it could be! The off lead dog obviously wasn't under control as it was bounding over to the other dog. The on lead dog was minding its own business and would not have done anything if the off lead dog hadn't come over.

Correct

[Golden Rules]

to brutally honest, if the OP's dog was conditioned/trained as mine are, this post and others pertaining to similar incidents and circumstances wouldn't exist.

That to me is such an unrealistic expectation - to think that all dogs could be perfectly trained and never a 'dog park incident' thread ever happen again.

The world isn't perfect and neither will every dog or dog owner be (because they don't all read DOL )

... Socialise, socialise, socialise, is driven home to dog owners in a cult like fashion who think they are doing the responsible thing in their dog's best interest that above all else, they must learn to play together. But my question in opposition to that is: What for and what does it achieve???.

I have provided my opinion and explanation to the contrary and I would love to hear other opinions for the reasons why dogs learning to play together is a good thing and hopefully I will learn something from what others with alternate opinions can share.

Fiona ;)

Fiona, I have a dog who is not interested in other dogs. I don't take him to the dog park to play with other dogs - we go so he is exposed to lots of other dogs. That to me is the socialisation and in a less structured environment than say an obedience class.

There have been dogs that have run up to him and put themselves in his face. I have seen his body language and he's not comfortable but he learns to deal with it 'politely' and I am always close by watching.

I have also had dogs that have thoroughly enjoyed playing with other dogs and that is a joy to watch the dogs having so much fun.

[malsrock]

[sheridan - on leash doesn't mean "under control". If your dog attacks another dog then it isn't under effective control.

megan

The on lead dog was as under control as it could be! The off lead dog obviously wasn't under control as it was bounding over to the other dog. The on lead dog was minding its own business and would not have done anything if the off lead dog hadn't come over.

I don't dispute this. I was replying to Sheridan's post to dogmad. I think that, if you hava a reactive, aggresive dog, you should avoid taking it to the park when there are lots of people about.

As per my previous post, I agree that the OP should never have let her dog approach the other one.

I also don't think that the onlead dog was as under control as it could be. If the dog had displayed this behaviour previously, the owner should have put a muzzle on it?

Megan, I do agree with your view that the owner of a known aggressive dog should keep it away from off leash areas as I walked myself in those shoes for nearly 15 years with my old GSD. I knew with the law of averages, an unleashed dog would rush up to us and my boy would fire up so I kept him away from areas like that where dogs were expected to be running loose.

Fiona

[malsrock]

I don't think you should have to muzzle your dog just because it reacts to an off leash dog bounding up to it while it is being walked on leash

The owner was doing everything he could to keep his dog safe and others safe - walking at the edge of the park with his dog on lead not causing a problem.

Sure maybe not walking at a park where other dogs are likely to be (if he knew his dog was likely to react like that) would have been safer. Or to leave when he saw the other dog at all.

One of mine does not like other dogs at all. I don't go to parks at all or anywhere we are likely to come across off lead dogs, but we have the odd off lead encounter when walking along a very busy 4 lane highway (who knows why you would let your dog off along a main road ;) ). I do not think she needs to be muzzled. We keep our distance from others - pull into a driveway or cross the road if possible, and she is kept on lead and I work on getting her attention on me.

I agree Kavik, I think your approach is spot on

Fiona

[dancinbcs]

I'm not making any presumptions about whose fault it was in the OP.

I just like to post this article when discussions such as these come up as I think it's a gem.

He Just Wants to Say Hi!

Great article. Thanks for posting the link.

[malsrock]

Actually it's quite unhelpful and upsetting the way this thread has turned into a blame game 'it's the OP who was at fault' or it was the man at the edge of the park.

As I have explained above a few times, this is an unprecedented event. Hannah was turning around to come back to me. She did not 'get in the dogs face' but stopped in front of the dog.

I am not going to explain and justify it. OBVIOUSLY it was not a good thing that she ran over there but she doesn't do this often, in the last year this has not happened and she is usually very cautious.

Again, as I have explained, it happened much too quickly for me to be able to do anything about it. So it wasn't like I 'allowed' this to happen and therefore I am to blame.

Honestly I was so upset by this last night and just needed a little bit of understanding without everyone jumping to conclusions about what an irresponsible dog owner I am.

I did not judge the guy at the edge of the park, and no, i don't think he was as responsible as he could be. His dog did SERIOUS damage , there were puncture wounds and a deep wound on Hannah's face as well as a large lump. It could have been worse. A dog like that is not just 'telling off' another puppy, it is aggressive. If that was a child, it would have been a whole different story. I don't know if this was the first time for the dog or not, but if it wasn't, that dog should be muzzled. It is a public park, and these situations are sometimes unavoidable, things like this do happen and if the owner knows his dog is so aggressive, then i would suggest an offlead park with lots of dogs running around and one of them bound to do something unpredictable is not the best place for it. But I don't want to cast judgement on the man because i don't know if he was aware of this dog doing this in the past or not.

Anyway I used to love going on this forum and learning things but honestly this will be the last time i will be visiting it. I have seen how these threads can get so vicious and it's completely unacceptable.

Hi Poochiemama,

I think we all understand how you are feeling especially if our dog gets injured and of course it's upsetting, but isn't good to thrash things around a bit to learn from others and devise a plan to best avoid a re-occurrence???

It does happen quick which is the problem and by the time you have the opportunity to react it's often too late no matter how good a handler you are or how well you are supervising your dog and the situation. If the leashed dog was known to be reactive/aggressive which the owner should know that, I personally wouldn't take a dog like that anywhere near a place where off leash dogs are expected to be, but perhaps as Aiden said, it was one off and the dog reacted out of character which dog's can do, the dog may have caught his owner with his pants down so to speak. If it was a known aggressive dog I agree that the guy shouldn't have had him there speaking responsibly.

But to put things sensitively, you can never trust other dogs, even dogs you know well 100%, anything can cause a trigger reaction when dogs run and play together that could result in an aggressive response and injury. I don't think you can eliminate the potential of dog to dog attacks other than keeping a distance between them where they can't physically make contact which is difficult in an off leash dog park area.

The risk is there at dog parks more so than anywhere else, and it really depends upon the assessment of risk each and every dog owner is willing to take.

Fiona

[all that glitters]

The man with the vicious dog should not be in there, even if he is on the edge of the park!!! Why would you even tempt fate by doing this? He should also have his dog muzzled at all times.

He might not have been "vicious".

Exactly!!! Sheesh.

The number of ratty little dogs I have had race up to me with Shyla responsibly ON LEAD and physically RUN INTO HER and make contact with her, it asounds me. I go OFF at the owners because of the risk involved, they are idiots!!! My dog is fine yes, but what if she wasn't? What if she reacted out of fright?? Nothing angers me more and when I see offleash dogs I automatically get mad at the thought of them rushing my onleash dog.

If she was to bite one in retaliation, what, she gets called dangerous? I get done in court?

[malsrock]

Perhaps it would help if you defined what socialisation means to you, Malsrock? The suggestion seems to be that dogs end up at one end or the other of extremes if allowed to socialise, so I'm just wondering whether you are referring to puppy free-for-alls or dog park derbies, or something more sensible?

Hi Aidan,

Socialisation to me is an awareness program for the dog to see new things and experience all different atmospheres. It's not to play with other dogs except my own or for other people to interfere with them outside of immediate family and friends. Socialisation is to expose them to all different situations but the fun and focus is derived by handler interaction which IMHO sets the foundation for a more trainable and focused dog.

Fiona

[malsrock]

I'm not making any presumptions about whose fault it was in the OP.

I just like to post this article when discussions such as these come up as I think it's a gem.

He Just Wants to Say Hi!

Great article. Thanks for posting the link.

Me too, a great read

[malsrock]

to brutally honest, if the OP's dog was conditioned/trained as mine are, this post and others pertaining to similar incidents and circumstances wouldn't exist.

That to me is such an unrealistic expectation - to think that all dogs could be perfectly trained and never a 'dog park incident' thread ever happen again.

The world isn't perfect and neither will every dog or dog owner be (because they don't all read DOL )

... Socialise, socialise, socialise, is driven home to dog owners in a cult like fashion who think they are doing the responsible thing in their dog's best interest that above all else, they must learn to play together. But my question in opposition to that is: What for and what does it achieve???.

I have provided my opinion and explanation to the contrary and I would love to hear other opinions for the reasons why dogs learning to play together is a good thing and hopefully I will learn something from what others with alternate opinions can share.

Fiona ;)

Fiona, I have a dog who is not interested in other dogs. I don't take him to the dog park to play with other dogs - we go so he is exposed to lots of other dogs. That to me is the socialisation and in a less structured environment than say an obedience class.

There have been dogs that have run up to him and put themselves in his face. I have seen his body language and he's not comfortable but he learns to deal with it 'politely' and I am always close by watching.

I have also had dogs that have thoroughly enjoyed playing with other dogs and that is a joy to watch the dogs having so much fun.

Golden Rules,

I don't think it's overly difficult to train a dog to ignor other dogs, but most you would find in a dog park I doubt would have had any such training, or have probably been ecouraged to interact and play where the dog learns that any dog they see is a potential playmate. It is unrealistic to expect that dogs will all mind their business at a dog park I agree, but when a dog is conditioned to run up and greet any dog they see, there will be that one dog one day to cause them grief by doing so which is what happens. People really need to just acknowledge the risks of entering a dog park as the odds a high that one day there is bound to be a problem. I think it's more good luck than good manangement that more incidents don't happen at those places as from what I have seen sometimes is basically a free for all with dogs all over the place.

Fiona

[malsrock]

The man with the vicious dog should not be in there, even if he is on the edge of the park!!! Why would you even tempt fate by doing this? He should also have his dog muzzled at all times.

He might not have been "vicious".

Exactly!!! Sheesh.

The number of ratty little dogs I have had race up to me with Shyla responsibly ON LEAD and physically RUN INTO HER and make contact with her, it asounds me. I go OFF at the owners because of the risk involved, they are idiots!!! My dog is fine yes, but what if she wasn't? What if she reacted out of fright?? Nothing angers me more and when I see offleash dogs I automatically get mad at the thought of them rushing my onleash dog.

If she was to bite one in retaliation, what, she gets called dangerous? I get done in court?

Yeah, epidemic proportions of them Shelle..............."where's your leash you moron" is my favorite stamp of disapproval ;) Last Sunday afternoon in a 40 minute walk we were rushed at 5 times by off leash dogs around suburban streets and pathways 3 of those occasions were kids with their dogs on the front lawn, no leashes of course and then they can't catch the dog so they go inside and leave dog racing around the street chasing me, lucky it was a little Oodle thing and not very threatening, but it's not the point.

Fiona

[poochiemama]

This thread has completely degenerated.

Now it's become a bashing of dogs on lead vs dogs off lead. 'Where's your lead you moron' and incidents of dogs running up to other dogs on a walk through the suburbs.

This was an OFFLEASH dog park.

As for socialisation, maybe if some of these dogs were more socialised, this sort of thing wouldn't happen. My dogs are socialised, friendly, NOT RUDE/BOISTEROUS (again more assumptions and judgemental opinions in what's become lynch mobbing) and yet dog owners like me are now being accused of 'too much socialisation', 'too friendly'.

Not to mention all the crap about labradors; i am SO SICK of lab-bashing; I have a lab myself as have many other people, and I don't need to list their virtues. It amazes me that labs are blamed for being 'exuberant' 'overfriendly' when nothing is said about the rude and aggro dogs who haven't been socialised and can't handle a dog coming up to sniff them, which IS normal dog behaviour.

I agree that it is good to bounce ideas around to find the best solutions for our dogs, but this thread is NOT that - this is a 'i'm right , you're wrong, my dog is so well-trained, yours is not' kind of thread. There is no constructive debate going on.

My original post did not ask for sympathy. I just asked for TWO things:

1. Is this going to traumatise Hannah in the future?

2. How do you best break up a dog fight?

There have been some supportive people on this thread and I thank you for that; because there are some lovely people on the forum, i'm not going to let this put me off the forums. But there are also a lot of self-righteous people who just want to prove a point.

[huski]

Not to mention all the crap about labradors; i am SO SICK of lab-bashing; I have a lab myself as have many other people, and I don't need to list their virtues. It amazes me that labs are blamed for being 'exuberant' 'overfriendly' when nothing is said about the rude and aggro dogs who haven't been socialised and can't handle a dog coming up to sniff them, which IS normal dog behaviour.

There is a HUGE difference between a dog politely approaching another one and sniffing it and a dog rushing up to another dog, getting in its face, completely disregarding the other dogs body language, and being plain rude. I see this with labs ALL the time, and no its not just restricted to that breed, but if I hear one more person with an over the top, rude dog who allows it to rush up and get in the face of whatever dog it pleases, tell me their dog is "just being friendly and saying hello" I will have to shoot someone