Traumatic Experience

[malsrock]

Thanks guys...

I am in two minds about the dog park thing...

I know there are some dog owners who have a coffee and chat while the dogs are running around, not knowing where the dogs are, but we are actually so obsessed with our dogs that we are always looking out at what they are doing and where they are and often we intervene very early if there is any evidence that the play is getting too rough or leave the park at the first sign of trouble. But this was so sudden and unpredictable.

In fact, in a way, we were lucky becausethe owner of the dog was actually semi-responsible ; he had him on a leash, he really stepped in to separate them, he was absolutely mortified and apologised a million times. I said 'it's ok, she's fine' (even though i was horrified) and he said 'no , this is not ok. i'm so sorry'. But not all owners are like this.

The good thing is, she immediately went back to playing and I just let her do that so that she doesn't know something is wrong.

spottychick, real shame you are not in victoria as i love dallies.

I agree in some ways Fiona about the concept of socialisation - some dogs are 'over' socialised and my dogs are guilty of this - they love playing with other dogs and they get so excited on the leash if they see another dog. They are getting better but i don't know if they'll get to the point of 'ignoring' other dogs.

I'm sorry your dog was hurt but the owner of the other dog wasn't semi-responsible, he was completely responsible walking along with his dog on a lead at the edge of the park, minding their own business. He wasn't at fault at all, I'm afraid you were for letting your dog run up to his without an invitation. Many otherwise friendly dogs will guard their owners from strange dogs and quite a few have no tolerance for strange dogs getting in their face. They don't go looking for trouble so they are not dog aggressive, they are just dogs being dogs.

No off lead dog should ever be allowed to run up to a strange on lead dog, ever, no matter where you are. It is just asking for trouble and is completely unfair to expect all dogs to welcome the attention of strange dogs.

Yes, I do agree completely dancinbcs. I posted on a another thread, my old GSD boy badly injured a small off leash dog that attcked us biting my boy on the leg which had to PTS due to the injuries my dog caused him from retaliation of the attack. Although I was legally cleared of any wrong, it was still a devistating experience that took me some time to get over. I would almost freeze at the sight of unleashed dogs approaching us afterwards transmitting my fear down the leash and the old boy would flare up even though I had muzzled him in public for some time after the attack, it still left my stomach tied in knots with paranoia about off leash dogs. Time heals this stuff, but I never wish to experience anything like that again......once is enough.

Fiona

[malsrock]

Thanks guys...

I am in two minds about the dog park thing...

I know there are some dog owners who have a coffee and chat while the dogs are running around, not knowing where the dogs are, but we are actually so obsessed with our dogs that we are always looking out at what they are doing and where they are and often we intervene very early if there is any evidence that the play is getting too rough or leave the park at the first sign of trouble. But this was so sudden and unpredictable.

In fact, in a way, we were lucky because the owner of the dog was actually semi-responsible; he had him on a leash, he really stepped in to separate them, he was absolutely mortified and apologised a million times. I said 'it's ok, she's fine' (even though i was horrified) and he said 'no , this is not ok. i'm so sorry'. But not all owners are like this.

The good thing is, she immediately went back to playing and I just let her do that so that she doesn't know something is wrong.

spottychick, real shame you are not in victoria as i love dallies.

I agree in some ways Fiona about the concept of socialisation - some dogs are 'over' socialised and my dogs are guilty of this - they love playing with other dogs and they get so excited on the leash if they see another dog. They are getting better but i don't know if they'll get to the point of 'ignoring' other dogs.

Hi Poochiemama,

A lot of people really get into me over my thoughts on socialisation and tell me I am totally WRONG, but sometimes socialisation done incorrectly creates DA dogs I have found. In theory it's good, but some puppy classes I have seen, there are dominant puppies belting up submissive one's etc and although it looks like harmless fun, not all the puppies are happy and are beginning to act defensively to some degree. Quite a few people have done all the socialising routines to the letter, and suddenly their dog becomes reactive out of blue and they are left scratching their head why it happened. ;) There is some merit in socialising, but I don't see it as important as many people do.

My Malinios is 12 months old and the only dog he runs with is my 8 year old GSD and is the only dog apart from his litter mates he has ever interacted with. He wanted to chase other dogs and play probably bite them too and bounce around like an idiot on the end of the leash when younger seeing them, but I have almost got him to the point where he ignors them now which is good for handler control. Providing other people's dogs are calm, he just walks past with a glance and seeing another dog is not an issue for him. My GSD is the same and only had my old boy as his doggy friend growing up and he just has no interest in dogs at all to create distractions for him to make training and focus difficult.

A lot of the well socialised dogs you see are complete nut cases at the sight of other dogs totally out of control until they get their doggy fix and the owners can't do a thing with them with such a high distraction. I guess too, my dog's are strong dogs if they go off, pull and lunge in distraction, they pull you off your feet with a few scars to prove that ;) , but other dogs being an instinctive major distraction especially if they are conditioned to enjoy their company, is a huge training disadvantage to create handler focus and break them of the habit. So, establishing the point where they ignor other dogs competely I have found takes away the necessity to try and break the bad habits associated with over socialised excitable behaviour which is pain in the butt to fix

Fiona

Very well explained

My dogs have always had all the socialisation they need meeting other on lead dogs at shows and obedience training but they rarely "play" with other dogs not owned by me. The puppy pre-school I use concentrates on teaching puppies to ignore other dogs and concentrate on their owner. I am happy for them to socialise on lead with another friendly dog so long as they bring their attention back to me immediately when asked. Letting them play with dogs they don't live with is a nightmare if you want reliable show or obedience dogs. The last thing you need is them wanting to run off and play when they should be concentrating.

That is exactly my thoughts on the extent of socialisation that provides the good results, great post

[wuffles]

While I agree that the method a lot of people mentioned above is good, it is not for everyone. I have socialised the heck out of my dogs and think they are better dogs for it. Just my opinion, and my way of doing things.

My dogs may get excited when they see another dog on walks, but... if an off leash dog rushes up to them on leash they are completely comfortable with that. When other dogs nip or snap or growl at them; they react by either ignoring the other dog or submitting. I am confident that in pretty much any random or unexpected situation, they would act appropriately, and this takes a lot of worry out of our walks.

My youngest LOVES other dogs and she LOVES other people. Yet at obedience training, I have no issues with her running off to see other dogs. The exercises we undertake off leash, she does well and is focused on me. Sure, she may not be as reliable as a dog who has been neutralised to other dogs, but I enjoy her sociability so this works for us. I'm sure it works for plenty of other people as well.

[aussielover]

Whatever you do, do not start avoiding socialisation with other dogs because that's when you will start to have a problem. So if you're not going to go to the dog park anymore socialise with dogs you know or only let your dog off at the park with trusted dogs.

Perhaps do some work with a trainer/behaviourist to help you manage situations when they occurs?

I disagree totally with stereotypical "socialisation" and the need for dogs to interact with others, IMHO they don't. They need to be aware of other dogs and learn to ignore them is best. When they learn the enjoyment of other dogs, is when they play up seeing one and misbehave on the leash. Friendly dogs want to play, reactive dogs want to fight and the way I like it, is a dog that doesn't care about other dogs and has no interest in them taking the sighting of other dogs in their stride.

Fiona

So you don't agree with letting dogs interact with their own kind?

[Staranais]

To me it's a balance of risk and too often, I think people who seriously cannot control an off leash dog think an unleashed area is a free for all and anything goes The problem is, people do take known reactive and DA dogs into those places for a run thinking they have a right to do so which is what worries me.

Or they take dogs that are rude, boisterous, completely out of control but "friendly". I had a bad experience a few years back with a huge labrador that systematically approached & rudely challenged every single dog that entered the dog park. The owner was convinced it was being friendly since it did not bark or growl while doing this.

Having said that, not all dog parks are created equal. I will take my dogs to offleash parks or beaches that are huge with very few dogs in, but I go to give the dog a run, not to socialise her. The little poky dog parks where you can't but help run into other dogs I avoid like the plague.

I am lucky in that I have access to (and have worked to create access to) farm land & bush areas where she can run offleash unimpeded & not encounter other dogs.

[Kavik]

As I have said previously on this topic, I think a lot depends on the temperament of the dog.

Diesel enjoys meeting other dogs and playing with them and I have to work to keep his attention on me when training around other dogs, but he is the most relaxed about strange dogs coming up to him at the park.

Kaos is more interested in working with me than in other dogs. He wasn't all that interested in other dogs even when a puppy. He will have a sniff and some dogs he likes to have a run with, but not wrestle with. He gets on best with other dogs of the same breed or type, and does not like exuberant dogs getting in his face.

[aussielover]

Letting them play with dogs they don't live with is a nightmare if you want reliable show or obedience dogs. The last thing you need is them wanting to run off and play when they should be concentrating.

I really can't agree with this statement. I think they are intelligent enough to tell the difference beetween when they are required to "work" and when they are allowed "playtime" with other dogs.

Lots of working dogs, eg. guide dogs, assistance dogs, customs dogs are allowed to play with other dogs at dog parks, starting from a very young age and continuing throughout their working life.

When they are working they know to ignore other people and dogs.

I do think it is important for dog to have off lead interaction with other dogs, especially for those coming from only-dog households. Obviously, it is safer to only let them play with known dogs, but not always practical.

To the OP: I am sorry your dog was attacked, it is a very scary experience but it seems your dog has suffered no lasting damage. The fact she was back playing with other dogs very quickly is a good indication that she wasn't too traumatised.

Personally I wouldn't let my dog run up to an on-leash dog, as some dogs that are usually nice, become aggressive on leash. But sometimes things happen very quickly and we all make mistakes, we are only human after all.

Edited September 2, 2010 by aussielover

[Aidan]

Socialisation is where dogs learn appropriate social skills. If it is uncontrolled then inappropriate social skills can be learned (and you do take that chance even at the best of times), however if a dog is more interested in other dogs than the task at hand surely that would be a training and motivation issue rather than a reason to avoid socialisation?

My personal opinion is that the best socialisation comes from walking with other dogs. Even if you're not walking with anyone specifically, if everyone keeps moving dogs don't get themselves into as many troubles. Socialisation need not (should not?) be devoid of training that is appropriate for the level of development of the pup in that situation either.

With regard to the OP's problem, if your dog is well socialised then you have a good buffer against this sort of problem. The majority of dogs will learn to discriminate between dogs who are comfortable with them and dogs who are uncomfortable with them.

My preference for breaking up a dog fight is to grab the back legs of the dog who is holding on and pull up and back very hard and sharply. If you're concerned about breaking a leg you're using about the right amount of force. If you pussy-foot around you will make things worse. Then keep walking backwards so the dog has to work to stay on his front paws.

Many dog fights will end more quickly and more smoothly if everyone just stays completely calm and backs off (good luck with that). You need to make a quick assessment to see if serious injury might occur before you decide to step in and risk making things worse.

Edited September 2, 2010 by Aidan

[Aidan]

The man with the vicious dog should not be in there, even if he is on the edge of the park!!! Why would you even tempt fate by doing this? He should also have his dog muzzled at all times.

He might not have been "vicious".

[TsarsMum]

I have 2 times been the person with the dog on the lead doing the right thing and the person with the other dog was not. My old boy was not DA but would have acted the same way if a a dog came bounding up to him while on a lead. He was a extreamly domminate dog (the difference being he would have let go the min i yelled) he also would have pinned and not bitten.

My hubby was walking him and our other dog and this stupid guy with his german shep pup no lead letting it run riot on a road came bounding up and started jumping all over our dogs (these dogs are 50kg plus each) my hubby made both dogs sit pinned there mouth shut or there would haven not been anymore puppy left (this puppy would have been about 6 months. my hubby said if his hands were not busy he would have decked the guy. the guy just slowly walked up and said oh he is only a pupp WTF that does not matter when our 2 dogs rip it to shreads. I was sooo glad it was not me walking them that day as i would not have been able to hold them.

This pup will be trained sooo differently. as the rotti has dommance issues from poor 'puppy play crap'. i wont do it again

[Bubitty]

I know that people say dogs get over it and it is us owners who are more traumatised than the dogs, but just wondered if any one had any experiences like this and how their dogs turned out? Also what if this happens again, what is the best way of separating the dogs?

I wouldn’t fret too much poochiemama.

My Bubby has been attacked by various crazies 4 times in his life (while minding his own business) and he is a perfectly fine dog who is not dog aggressive at all.

I don’t ever let either of my dogs run up to any other dogs unless we know the dog.

[Silvawilow]

The man with the vicious dog should not be in there, even if he is on the edge of the park!!! Why would you even tempt fate by doing this? He should also have his dog muzzled at all times.

Are you serious?????? I must have missed the part in the first post where it said the man's dog was agressive - IMO it was simply reacting to a situation where it was on lesh, unable to get away from another uncontrolled dog rushing at it.

By what the OP has said in their first post they were in the wrong as they let their uncontrolled unleshed dog rush up to the dog on lesh.

[aussielover]

The man with the vicious dog should not be in there, even if he is on the edge of the park!!! Why would you even tempt fate by doing this? He should also have his dog muzzled at all times.

He might not have been "vicious".

I doubt the dog was vicious. It didn't even break the skin as far as i'm aware?

It probably did not enjoy having a random dog bound up to it whilst it was restrained and couldn't escape.

The did the right thing by walking on the edge and keeping his dog on leash. For all we know, the dog could be perfectly friendly when off leash.

[oakway]

I am not purposely being offensive to anyone but considering these type of situations come up regularly the simple answer to these scenarios is "don't do it". Don't take your dog to off leash dog parks etc to mingle with strange dogs because it's an accident waiting to happen. We can't control or know how other peoples dogs may behave and there is always the chance of people owning reactive dogs which they can't control or can't be bothered to control being there also that can and will attack your dog. It's bad enough counteracting off leash dogs in leashed areas on the street and paths, but letting your dog loose amoungst strange dogs to play gives me shivers up my spine just thinking about the risks involved in these practices.

Just my honest thoughts on the matter in general

Fiona

I could not agree with you more.

Why people use dog parks is beyond my imagination.

Dog Parks to me are disasters waiting to happen.

To prove my point just read all about them on DOL.

JMHO

[sas]

Whatever you do, do not start avoiding socialisation with other dogs because that's when you will start to have a problem. So if you're not going to go to the dog park anymore socialise with dogs you know or only let your dog off at the park with trusted dogs.

Perhaps do some work with a trainer/behaviourist to help you manage situations when they occurs?

I disagree totally with stereotypical "socialisation" and the need for dogs to interact with others, IMHO they don't. They need to be aware of other dogs and learn to ignore them is best. When they learn the enjoyment of other dogs, is when they play up seeing one and misbehave on the leash. Friendly dogs want to play, reactive dogs want to fight and the way I like it, is a dog that doesn't care about other dogs and has no interest in them taking the sighting of other dogs in their stride.

Fiona

They don't need to ignore them - that's what you want - and that is fine if that is the method of training you conduct.

HOWEVER for a dog that has had a bad experience ceasing all socialising is NOT a good thing.

Edited: When I say socialising I'm not neccessarily talking about dog parks (I'm not a fan of them personaly).

I believe in neutralisation of dogs especially if you want them to work with you - BUT the average joe blogs likes their dogs to have dog mates and go to parks so if they're going to do that and don't know how to handle their dog in-case of an incccident a session with a Behaviourist would not go astray.

When people start AVOIDING that is when problems start after an inccident.

So....next time you wanna jump on the bandwagon can I suggest you don't make assumptions as to what you believe people meant - maybe ask a few more questions?

Edited September 3, 2010 by sas

[Sheridan]

The man with the vicious dog should not be in there, even if he is on the edge of the park!!! Why would you even tempt fate by doing this? He should also have his dog muzzled at all times.

Hang on, wasn't poochiemama's dog off lead and the man's dog on lead? Did poochiemama allow her dog to 'bound up' to the other dog and get in its face? This is poochiemama's fault for not having her dog under control not the other owner.

[megan_]

The man with the vicious dog should not be in there, even if he is on the edge of the park!!! Why would you even tempt fate by doing this? He should also have his dog muzzled at all times.

unfortunately you can't control what other people do. Yoiu can only control what you do.

I do go to an offleash park, but at the crack of dawn or late evening (when we have day light savings time). I don't let my dogs play with stangers, but let them play with the dogs that they know. If they tried to approach other dogs (which they generally don't) I call them and they come running back to me. If there is any dog that looks like it isn't being controlled I leave immediately - even if they are on the other side of the park.

I believe dogs need off leash time. My dogs lenjoy playing with their friends. You just have to try to minimise the risks.

Sheridan - on leash doesn't mean "under control". If your dog attacks another dog then it isn't under effective control.

ETA: AussieLover - the OP said that the skin was broken. Even if it wasn't, just because skin isn't broken doesn't mean that an attack didn't happen. My girl attacked my boy a few months ago - it was full on and there was no denying her intention - no skin was broken because he was due for a clip and she got a good dose of fur instead.

Edited September 3, 2010 by megan_

[aussielover]

Oops didn't see that, sorry.

I know a few dogs who appear to be extremely aggressive on lead, but off they are absolutely lovely and play really well. Which is why I don't let my dog near on lead dogs.

[Sheridan]

Sheridan - on leash doesn't mean "under control". If your dog attacks another dog then it isn't under effective control.

No, it doesn't but the fact remains that the off lead dog should not have been allowed to bounce up to the other dog. Bounce up is the OP's words, mind. I've read enough times here the opposite complaint where an off lead dog is allowed to rush up to an on lead dog and the off lead dog owner is thoroughly condemned for allowing it to happen. How is this any different?

[Kavik]

[sheridan - on leash doesn't mean "under control". If your dog attacks another dog then it isn't under effective control.

megan

The on lead dog was as under control as it could be! The off lead dog obviously wasn't under control as it was bounding over to the other dog. The on lead dog was minding its own business and would not have done anything if the off lead dog hadn't come over.