What Do You Think ?

[Sandra777]

Um, I am assuming this breed isn't MEANT to have a reverse scissor bite? We all do know that there are some breeds where "undershot" is actually correct.

[Cupcakes r yum]

Um, I am assuming this breed isn't MEANT to have a reverse scissor bite? We all do know that there are some breeds where "undershot" is actually correct.

The breed does require a scissor bite, when we were looking at pups our first choice of breeder was not planning a litter for 12 months and could not offer us anything until the litter was 5 - 6 months due to "moving mouths" in her lines, and obviously it is in our dogs lines too which is unrelated to the first breeder we contacted.

[SnoPaws]

I think this is the the breed standard?

Jaws strong with a perfect, regular and complete scissor bite, i.e. Upper teeth closely overlapping lower teeth and set square to the jaws.

[Bonduca]

I would have to agree with the earlier post on page one of "Not being happy if I was the breeder" and I hear what the OP is saying about her daughter wanting to show their dog.

What I would suggest is to look around for a show quality puppy, if you already have 2 dogs another is not going to make a difference, should your daughter is serious about wanting to be involved in showing and by the sounds of what you have written it sounds like she has the bug I would then promise her to opportunity for next years show, as I am sure it will come again. In the mean time until you find this puppy keep encouraging her participation with the opportunities that are currently being presented to her with respect to her handling other peoples dogs. This way she can enhance and learn the skills and once the puppy comes along and the shows rolls around again next year she will be further skilled have more confidence and will be showing her own puppy with the blessing of a good breeder I see this as a win/win situation, maybe not immediately but definately over the longer term.

Hope this helps in some way

[Debyork2]

I'm a bit loathe to join in this debate.....it's a bit heated but I'm inclined to think there would be no great harm in showing the dog, as long as the OP's daughter understands the ramifications of the fault her dog has, when I started at just a bit older than the girl in question I had no idea! I was approached in the street by a member of the local KC when I was walking my Mum's dog and asked if I was interested in showing him, she told me how to enter etc and off I went, this was many, many years ago, like another poster, long before internet, mentoring...it was 'learn as you go', now that particular dog never won a single thing but he was an entry into showing dogs, I got used to NOT winning-always a good thing- and it made winning with other dogs later on even more of a thrill! In my experience breeders are more likely to sell you a show prospect if you have a bit of experience under your belt. I have shown a dog with this particular fault who was good in all other aspects and never had any 'humiliating' experiences-even picking up a BOB on one occasion, sure it's a serious fault(tho' perhaps not as serious in some breeds) but they all have faults and very few people start out with a whizz bang show dog-I just think, given the circumstances, it may be a chance for the girl to see if she really is keen to continue showing before commiting to a 'proper' show dog. I've seen some VERY ordinary dogs being shown-not just by Newbies either-so it's not as if it's groundbreaking stuff!

[ellz]

Believe me, this ISN'T heated!!!!!

[Diva]

I would have to agree with the earlier post on page one of "Not being happy if I was the breeder"

The breeder has approached the owner to breed from the dog.

As far as I am concerned, that negates any right the breeder may have had to get upset that it's shown in a local ag show. Breeding from a dog with a bad bite is much more serious to me than taking it around the ring at your local.

Edited September 2, 2010 by Diva

[ellz]

I would have to agree with the earlier post on page one of "Not being happy if I was the breeder"

The breeder has approached the owner to breed from the dog.

As far as I am concerned, that negates any right the breeder may have had to get upset that it's shown in a local ag show. Breeding from a dog with a bad bite is much more serious to me than taking it around the ring at your local.

+1

Although having said that....a lot would depend upon WHY a mouth is bad. There is a big difference between a malocclusion of teeth and the jaw being out of alignment. I was fortunate to have had Dr Harry Spira give me an impromptu "lesson" on bites many years ago. It has stuck with me ever since and is one of the reasons I need to see a dogs' bite before I will make a snap judgement.

And again, degrees come into play. My definition of "severe" could be completely different to somebody elses. I have in fact bred from a dog with a bad bite and was very careful to breed it to a dog with a good bite, from generations of good bites. Because I don't allow a lot of puppies to enter a gene pool from my breeding program, I felt fairly confident that I could stop the issue from "taking over" and I succeeded.

[Showpony]

Our breed has few number at this show every year so l could pretty much guarantee she would be the only one in the class and l would not have her go in for challange she just wants to be part of it all. What do you think ?

If she did end up tjhe only one in her class then you would have to go in for the challenge.

Then if she's the only one how would she react if the judge refuses the CC ?

Listening to comments by some judges there are many breeds that have exhibits with incorrect mouths.

You just need to be fully aware that going in the ring with an obvious fault handicaps you right from the

start.

cheers

Hi,

Does your Agi show dog section have Junior Handler classes? If so this could be the solution to your problem....the dog would have to be entered in it's breed class.........but it doesn't have to be shown in this class. Then let your daughter take the dog in the Handler class. Get some help and training for your daughter before the show so she is a little bit more prepared as to what will happen. Good Luck

[conztruct]

Wow - this has become quite an interesting topic with lots of good and different viewpoints.

I guess the easy answer from where I view this is that it's fine for your daughter to take the dog into the ring but if you are taking a dog with a known and obvious fault you have to be prepared for the worst case consequences.

Some judges can be quite scathing.

If you are pretty certain your daughter wants to show, a couple of things I'd consider are:

• Have you asked the breeder if they think it's ok to show the dog - this is something I'd do as a courtesy
  
• Have you talked to your daughter about the possible outcomes - eg the judge may refuse the class award or challenge and talk about why
  
• Is this the right dog? When most people are starting out it's sometimes better for them to take a proven showdog into the ring to make their first handling experiences as easy as possible - I'm not saying that's what you have to do but it may help as your daughter develops her handling skills.
  

I wouldn't say that I necessarily agree with those saying don't show it but it would depend if an incorrect bite is a disqualifying fault for your breed - if it is, you just need to be aware that you'll be refused. I've shown dogs with faults before because the breeder and I both thought they were still a worthy exhibit but I've always been prepared for the fact that I may be refused - fortunately, it's only ever happened once. I don't necessarily agree with the notion that a dog shouldn't be shown due to a fault unless the standard states it's an automatic disqualification - but you need to realistically assess the dog and probably ask for a few opinions from impartial people before you make your decision.

Some really good advice in this thread on both sides of the debate - one thing I'd encourage you to do is take it all on board - embracing different viewpoints in coming to your decision usually results in a better more objective decision and this is what's great about the forum. You may find some of the comments direct but very few are intentionally being rude and trust me, it's much better just to hear things like they are.

[Bonduca]

I would have to agree with the earlier post on page one of "Not being happy if I was the breeder"

The breeder has approached the owner to breed from the dog.

As far as I am concerned, that negates any right the breeder may have had to get upset that it's shown in a local ag show. Breeding from a dog with a bad bite is much more serious to me than taking it around the ring at your local.

I am responding to this, as per page one post, on a personal level as a breeder that I would not be happy for one of my puppies to be presented to a judge as the best example of my breeding because this would not be the case. As far as the breeder wanting to use this pup in it's breeding programme........well that's a whole other can of worms which on this occassion I am not prepared to enter into as this was not the OP question. ;)

Hope this clarifies this post for the posters reading and replying

[Parkeyre]

An incorrect bite is a reasonably major fault in my opinion, it's not like you're taking a dog into the ring that might be slightly long in foreface or the like.

Many judges, breeders etc are unforgiving of an incorrect bite.

I would have to agree with the earlier post on page one of "Not being happy if I was the breeder"

The breeder has approached the owner to breed from the dog.

As far as I am concerned, that negates any right the breeder may have had to get upset that it's shown in a local ag show. Breeding from a dog with a bad bite is much more serious to me than taking it around the ring at your local.

+1

[becks]

I see no reason why your daughter shouldn't use this dog to have a go at showing and see if she likes doing it. If she does, then you could put your names down for a show quality pup in the future.

many of us started with a dog who wasn't up to the quality of the champ show winners, but they were dogs that taught us how to handle, groom and how to accept the judges decisions. i've seen a few come and go just as quickly who arrived in the ring with a good dog and as soon as the 2nd dog didn't win as much they were gone from the sport.

[Shaar]

Ummm I hate to be a negative nancy but forget about the bad mouth, this breeder is breeding mixed breed dogs... surely that says a lot about her. The dog might not be show quality even if the mouth was good (no offense towards you at all cupcake)

If she really wants to show her then that's your decision but make sure you prepare her for the worst, make sure she knows about the dogs mouth and what could happen if the judge picks up on it.

Junior Handlers is so much fun for the kids, it's also a great confidence builder. I used to love it and it was great ptrep for when I started showing dogs in the actual competition. Give the club a call and see if they are offering handlers competitions at the show.

[yarracully]

Fifi, thanks for your reply and explanation. Your approach makes alot of sense and would be the right way to go about it.

Depending on your location. We often show in Victoria and I am more than happy to let a learner handle my dogs. It helps me as I have in the past been stuck with a dog that won't work for anyone but me, which is a problem for challenge runoffs etc. So I want my dogs to be used to being handled by anyone.

[Alyosha]

Hi Cupcakes. A slightly different perspective from me. This is a subject I have a little personal experience in...

My daughter at the same age (12) wanted to get into showing. She fell in love with a particular breed and we bought a pup for her. We weren't after a world beater, just something she could have fun with.

At her very first show a competitor came and spoke to her when she was toileting her baby, and asked to look at the puppy. This competitor looked in pups mouth (yes, rude!) and found a reverse scissor bite - puppy teeth mind you. The resulting hoo-ha and general scene made, this exhibitor bringing it to the attention of everyone in the vicinity etc was dreadfully demoralising to our daughter. She was put in the spotlight and made to feel horibbly exposed and humiliated no matter what we said to her or the other exhibitor. To their credit other people were very good about it - but that mattered not.

Upshot of the situation? She has never been back in the showring, and I doubt she ever will. The puppy was eventully desexed as two teeth remained out of alignment and we ended up rehoming her. I think the whole relationship between my daughter and her was tainted - as much as she loved that pup she was a constant reminder of feeling humiliated and exposed. Which in a pre-teen girl can be a very BAD thing indeed.

Show people can be heartless and lack tact and concern about children and their feeling when their own winning or competing is involved.

Your daughter might be the stubborn resilient type who would take such an experience and build on it. But if not, I would hate to see another young interested person put off showing.

edit - sp

Edited September 4, 2010 by Alyosha

[Gayle.]

Hi Cupcakes. A slightly different perspective from me. This is a subject I have a little personal experience in...

My daughter at the same age (12) wanted to get into showing. She fell in love with a particular breed and we bought a pup for her. We weren't after a world beater, just something she could have fun with.

At her very first show a competitor came and spoke to her when she was toileting her baby, and asked to look at the puppy. This competitor looked in pups mouth (yes, rude!) and found a reverse scissor bite - puppy teeth mind you. The resulting hoo-ha and general scene made, this exhibitor bringing it to the attention of everyone in the vicinity etc was dreadfully demoralising to our daughter. She was put in the spotlight and made to feel horibbly exposed and humiliated no matter what we said to her or the other exhibitor. To their credit other people were very good about it - but that mattered not.

Upshot of the situation? She has never been back in the showring, and I doubt she ever will. The puppy was eventully desexed as two teeth remained out of alignment and we ended up rehoming her. I think the whole relationship between my daughter and her was tainted - as much as she loved that pup she was a constant reminder of feeling humiliated and exposed. Which in a pre-teen girl can be a very BAD thing indeed.

Show people can be heartless and lack tact and concern about children and their feeling when their own winning or competing is involved.

Your daughter might be the stubborn resilient type who would take such an experience and build on it. But if not, I would hate to see another young interested person put off showing.

edit - sp

That's disgusting. Truly disgusting. Some people have to realise it's only a dog show, in the grand scheme of things it's not all that important.

[Alyosha]

Yep Gaylek you're exactly right. Disgusting.

What people need to realise and be careful with kids stepping into adult competitive worlds, is that damage done is damage done.

[ellz]

Yes, but hopefully people also know their children and their limits.

I for one would never put my children into a situation that was beyond their ability to cope....hence why they've never been encouraged to show an interest in Junior Handlers. In some ways, this can be worse for a sensitive child than full-on competition in the breed ring.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Yep Gaylek you're exactly right. Disgusting.

What people need to realise and be careful with kids stepping into adult competitive worlds, is that damage done is damage done.

Unfortunately I have concluded that in the breed in question, many know this perfectly well and either do not care or actively use it to further their own ends.

For some, nothing but NOTHING is more important than making a negative point about someone's lines. Nothing. Grief at a favourite dog's death, kids, newbies - none of it is off limits if points are to be scored.

For the OP i think it's fairly situation specific and breed specific, but if there is even an outside chance that she will be put through what Alyosha's daughter went through I would not do it. There's a good article in the latest Dog News Australia by Andrew Brace that covers, among other things, the importance of finding a good dog for a young handler. Adults can go into a situation knowing they are beating their head against a brick wall (rare breed, rare coat type, unpopular colour etc) and choose to tough it out. As Alyosha mentions, kids and adolescents need more careful handling and support.