What Do You Think ?

[SnoPaws]

A child decides they want to show dogs and what ................. mum whos only experience with dogs is the pound puppies they rescue from RSPCA can't really book in for lessons at the local show dog school. It's not an easy world for the uneducated to break into ;)

New exhibitors have it easy these days, when I started showing I had no help at all, there was no internet, no show training classes, no Dogzonline, I just bought a dog and took it into the ring. My first dog was very average and that's putting it mildly, he was refused challenges and once a class win. In the end someone took me aside and explained that the dog wasn't show quality and that he was never going to win anything and I'm glad they did even though I was very upset about it at the time. It didn't put me off showing however, I actually benefitted from the experience, found myself a better dog and kept going. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.

;)

Huh, isn't that a bit contradictory.

So you're saying your first dog wasn't show quality but you actually benefitted from the experience but this girl shouldn't show her pet quality dog. Or am I reading that wrong

And just for the record before I get abused, my advice would be for your daughter to not take this dog in the ring either

Scampers away because it is scary in here

[Miranda]

Huh, isn't that a bit contradictory.

So you're saying your first dog wasn't show quality but you actually benefitted from the experience but this girl shouldn't show her pet quality dog. Or am I reading that wrong

I benefitted from the experience of having a complete stranger come over and tell me that my dog wasn't show quality and pointing out his faults. However this wouldn't be acceptable these days, anyone who did that would be classed as a 'nasty dog show person'. What I'm saying is that it's sometimes better to tell things like they are instead of tippy toeing around issues and sugar coating everything. A dog with a bad mouth shouldn't be taken into the show ring, end of story.

[Sandra777]

Oh doG forbid that a dog with an actual (swoon) fault should be in the show ring. The rings would be pretty damn empty if all the dogs with (gasp) faults were taken out.

OP - if the breeder is OK with you showing the dog then do it, and since they wanted to breed from her I guess they're not too fussy about that sort of thing BUT.......

Is your daughter old enough and mentally mature enough to cope with coming last (out of 2 or 20, last is still last)?

Is your daughter able to cope with the idea that a judge may tell her, either politely or rudely, that her much loved pet is not going

to be any good in the show ring?

Is your daughter OK with total strangers being incredibly rude to her, staring at her and her much loved pet and turning their back on her?

When I started showing the breeder of my dog lived a looong way away - almost an hour's drive

I got help from a woman much closer who had a similar breed who showed me how to fill in an entry form, how to stack my dog and what to practice at home. I had a lot of fun and that dog actually turned out to be a big winner and every dog I now own bar one is descended from him.

I have shown dogs with quite obvious faults and whoever said an undershot dog won't win is wrong! For good judges who actually know something about the breeds they're judging the virtues of the dogs in front of them far outweighs their faults - and so it should be.

Nope, I doubt you have the next BIS winner there, but if your daughter is keen and sensible then it could be the start of a life long passion for dog shows.

[Aziah]

An incorrect bite is a reasonably major fault in my opinion, it's not like you're taking a dog into the ring that might be slightly long in foreface or the like.

Many judges, breeders etc are unforgiving of an incorrect bite.

Edited September 2, 2010 by Aziah

[Miranda]

An incorrect bite is a reasonably major fault in my opinion, it's not like you're taking a dog into the ring that might be slightly long in foreface or the like.

Many judges, breeders etc are unforgiving of an incorrect bite.

Yes exactly, the dog goes into the ring, you stack it, the judge comes up and wham just about the first thing he sees after eye colour is an incorrect bite. It's a glaringly obvious fault. I've shown dogs with faults too, let's face it all dogs have them, but some faults are a lot worse than others. Personally I wouldn't show a dog with a bad mouth and I wouldn't breed from one either.

Edited September 2, 2010 by Miranda

[Oliversmum]

Just out of pure curiosity, what breed of dog do you own Cupcakes?? I know it is irrelevant, but I am curious..

[Sandra777]

Yes exactly, the dog goes into the ring, you stack it, the judge comes up and wham just about the first thing he sees after eye colour is an incorrect bite. It's a glaringly obvious fault. I've shown dogs with faults too, let's face it all dogs have them, but some faults are a lot worse than others. Personally I wouldn't show a dog with a bad mouth and I wouldn't breed from one either.

When the dog comes in the ring the judge should be able to see if it has correct breed type, correct angles (movement tells you this) and basics like correct topline for the breed.

When they approach the dog from the front they should be able to see if it has a correct front, correct depth of brisket, correct forechest.

Up to this point the dog is fabulous - the most stunning thing they have ever seen. They open the lips and find a reverse scissor bite. Dog is now total rubbish to be thrown from the ring in disgrace and banned forever from the sight of people who would be offended by such a serious fault.

While the winner is.... the dog with zero breed type and generic show dog movement.

Oh but wait - it doesn't have any glaringly obvious faults.

Except for one - a total lack of virtue.

[SnoPaws]

Huh, isn't that a bit contradictory.

So you're saying your first dog wasn't show quality but you actually benefitted from the experience but this girl shouldn't show her pet quality dog. Or am I reading that wrong

I benefitted from the experience of having a complete stranger come over and tell me that my dog wasn't show quality and pointing out his faults. However this wouldn't be acceptable these days, anyone who did that would be classed as a 'nasty dog show person'. What I'm saying is that it's sometimes better to tell things like they are instead of tippy toeing around issues and sugar coating everything. A dog with a bad mouth shouldn't be taken into the show ring, end of story.

Ah got ya Miranda

Believe me my mentor / breeder doesn't sugarcoat anything and I prefer it that way but imho that it probably isn't the best way to treat a noob stranger

What does the standard say for this breed?

[ellz]

Going against the grain here. If the dog is of reasonable quality but with only ONE fault, no matter whether anybody considers it to be a major fault or not, it is on Main Registration and has as much right to be in the ring as any other dog. Isn't judging about the total package and NOT fault judging?

Yes, ok, the handler needs a thick skin because most judges will not award it. BUT, on the other hand, the judge on the day may just be one of those who is prepared to judge the dog as a complete package and not pick things out that aren't right. AND unless the bite is a disqualifying fault, at worst the judge may refuse the challenge and at best, they may award it.

If the youngster wants to learn to handle then I say let them go for it. If the breeder doesn't care, then why should the owner?

But do prepare the youngster for the fact that their beloved dog may not make the grade.

Heck, when I look back at what I started with and think about what other people must have been saying about my first show dog I still cringe, but without those experiences, I wouldn't have learned as quickly and I wouldn't have learned how to handle a dog. There is nothing stated anywhere that says that handling a dog without major faults is any different or easier than handling a dog WITH faults so if you think your child has the intestinal fortitude to take the bad with the good, then bugger it, let her show her dog!

[Cupcakes r yum]

Thank you again everyone for all your comments and recommendations. There will be 2 bitchs and two dogs from our breed at the show, it's the same people every year (show usually has about 350 -400 entries), l was advised if l put her in her age group she would be the only one in that class and would get a run around the ring but come time for a challange l should scratch her. My daughter is happy with this she just wants to join in, she is not expecting a ribbon or to be awarded.

l know l can count on the dog to take care of her she will be fine stacking and doing out and back or what ever it is called, before we even considered taking her to the show she was out the back practicing, maybe dog shows should have a fun ring for people starting out and just wanting to give it a go even if their dog does not make the grade like they do at horse shows.

[ellz]

To be honest, even if she wins her class, I wouldn't withdraw her from the challenge lineup. If the judge dislikes the dog enough in the class, they will no award the class. If she has sufficient breed type to get through her class then she has every right to be in the challenge lineup. If there is more than one in the challenge lineup then at worst, the judge may not award a reserve challenge and at best, you never know, she might get it.

The most important thing would be for you to ensure that the dog is groomed and presented correctly for the breed and that it is shown on a suitable lead.

[Diva]

I hope she has fun cupcakes, as long as she can take it in the right spirit and the other people in your breed are pleasant she should do.

Your daughter probably won't win but the breed is unlikely be non-awarded either if the judge has other options, and it doesn't sound like winning is what she is going for. And she may meet some helpful people who will be happy to have her involved at future shows.

Like ellz, I'd encourage you to get advice on grooming and presentation if you feel you need to, unlike the bite that part is on show for all to see and it's nice to look the part.

Edited September 2, 2010 by Diva

[Miranda]

Up to this point the dog is fabulous - the most stunning thing they have ever seen. They open the lips and find a reverse scissor bite. Dog is now total rubbish to be thrown from the ring in disgrace and banned forever from the sight of people who would be offended by such a serious fault.

Isn't this fun, I love these sorts of discussion I know what you mean Sandra, but a reverse scissor bite is a serious fault, it's not just a tooth fault it's a fault with the jaw. One or two teeth slightly out of alignment in an otherwise fabulous dog is forgiveable, but an undershot jaw is a different thing altogether.

Edited September 2, 2010 by Miranda

[Gayle.]

Whereabouts in Vic are you? I would enter my dogs in more shows if I could get someone to take them into the ring for me, even a complete novice. I have two Australian Shepherds....my big girl is lovely and gentle and would be quite easy for a child to show, the puppy might be a bit more of a challenge but he's a happy boy if a bit wriggly.

It's unlikely the judge would say anything to your daughter, they genereally don't give much feedback at all. And I once saw a corgi with a very obvious limp be awarded a dog challenge from a very big lineup, so if that's good enough for points what's a bit of a mouth problem?

[oakway]

Of course the idea is to encourage people to show, I've lost count of the number of new people that I've helped out and I'm helping a young lady at the moment to train and show her baby puppy.

But, you don't encourage people to take dogs with obvious faults, that they've opted to keep as a pet into the ring. If her daughter wants to show , then there are plenty of people who would love the help and the company each weekend.

Naturally the correct answer for DOL would have been " sure go ahead and have a wonderful time " . The OP asked for opinions and they now have them.

Of course we all encourage people to show and have fun.

But we don't encourage you to be fool hardy with a dog in the hands of a child with an incorrect bite.

It's hard enough to win with good ones let alone take one into the ring knowing it had a problem.

[Flaves]

Good luck with whatever you decide to do

I agree with Ellz, if your breeder is happy for you to have a go, then go for it.

If your daughter wants experience in showing, you are in Vic, and go to KCC, ask around i am sure there would be people to let her have a go at handling their dogs.

[fifi]

I do worry about people telling this girl to 'give it a go' with a dog that sounds like it has a very serious fault.

the adults that are advising this might be okay with it, but believe me, the teenage junior handler scene can be competitive !!

I would also like to reiterate the theme of my earlier posts - dog shows are NOT about the handlers winning - its about quality dogs.

Yes, my first showdog was pet quality and he probably did better than he should of (my heart boy) but I was not a child who would have been gutted if I'd been the subject of refusals or comment.

Let her have a positive start with other people's good dogs, and learn to look for quality & get her eye in. Then we may have another to stay in our hobby :-)

fifi

Edited September 2, 2010 by fifi

[ellz]

We're talking about breed competition not junior handlers, different kettle of fish completely. For goodness sakes, we're talking about one local agricultural show not a Royal or a Breed National!!! If the youngster is aware of the fault and understands the ramifications, then they aren't harming anybody. If they do it and decide to take the whole thing personally, then chances are, they wouldn't have a personality which could cope with dog shows and dog show people full stop!

Without the benefit of being able to see what is actually wrong with the dog, I'm afraid I personally don't necessarily count a bad bite as being a MAJOR fault. A fault is a fault is a fault. One man's meat is another man's poison. Unless a breed is one which uses the mouth for a specific purpose and therefore an incorrect bite could prevent them from doing a job OTHER than eating its dinner, then a bite fault is no more of an issue in the ring than slipping patellas, bad toplines, straight or over-angulated rears, excessive coat, excessive skin, lack of chest, long backs, short necks and a zillion other faults which I daresay most of us see in the ring on a regular basis and which would probably have a greater detrimental effect on most dogs.

Maybe the daughter doesn't WANT to handle other people's dogs? Maybe the parent isn't comfortable with the idea of encouraging her daughter to approach strangers?

[fifi]

I guess I thought it would be more positive for a youngster to begin with an experienced show dog, than the possiblily of her first experience being with a dog where there was the chance of being non-awarded.

fifi

[ellz]

Personally I think it depends upon the youngster. She may have an amazing bond with her dog and be incredibly proud of it and want to show it off no matter what the response.

Believe me, I really do "get" where you're coming from but I do think that sometimes the "norm" can be bent slightly and this sounds like a situation where the person concerned would get more from showing the dog they have already. Maybe if they have a positive experience at that show, then her parents may be in a position to consider a "better" dog from another breeder for the youngster to go on with. And as I said, maybe if it all goes pearshaped and despite having asked the question here and receiving a few different viewpoints, then it will be established that dog shows aren't what they wanted to do after all.

As we're all too aware, dog shows do require a certain personality and the ability to look outside the square and not take the decisions of judges too personally.