How To Decrease The Value Of Food Carrying Strangers

[lovemesideways]

So my dog Rover. Is a Labrador, and therefore he is obsessed with food.

The problem is, he's a basically a food whore, and will go up to anyone and everyone who has some form of food pouch/bum bag/ hand in pocket that may contain food. Then he sits, and begs for a treat. More often than not now he will not get food off people as I am watching him constantly and won't let him go towards them. The problem is he still wants to. Given the chance he's off and begging.

Doesn't matter that I have food, he has learned that he can get food off complete strangers, and hes going to try.

I'm looking at doing agility or maybe flyball with him. The problem is he will race off and throw himself at anyone with a treat bag or who might feed him. He has been on lead and lunged at a stranger with a treat bag to try and sit at their feet in the hopes of a treat. We will be walking and he will hop into heel next to some random person in the hopes of being fed.

The behavior has come about because my mum basically thinks its cute that he goes up to complete strangers for food. I hate it and really dislike the behaviour. My boy Riddick has been on a "Only treats come from me" policy from pretty much day one. Works great for him.

I have considered putting Rover on the same thing. Problem is mum won't do the same thing when she takes him out, she lets him go to strangers and thinks "its cute".

How can I increase the value for me, to the point where other people and their potentially treat filled pockets are of no real interest. Is it possible?

[RubyStar]

Only thing I can recommend is get your clicker out. Any time Rover so much as looks at you, click and treat. Soon he realises looking at mum without being asked to means treat. Introduce people, click/treat when he looks in your direction. He should be coming back to YOU for treats, they catch on pretty quick with this game. Just last night Ruby was sitting in front of a fellow trainer/DOLer like a good little girl to score a treat. I started clicking her when she looked at me and then she wouldn't leave me. I sometimes palm Ruby off to others arming them with a handful of treats so she can work for them so she knows treats can come from others too, click C/T for looking at you and when he is calm about it should help with the mugging others for food.

At Rover falling into heel with strangers to score a treat. Smart fella

Oh and to How can I increase the value for me, to the point where other people and their potentially treat filled pockets are of no real interest. Is it possible? - he's a Lab, I don't think it is possible! But it is manageable

Edited August 31, 2010 by RubyStar

[Staranais]

I have considered putting Rover on the same thing. Problem is mum won't do the same thing when she takes him out, she lets him go to strangers and thinks "its cute".

You'll find it hard to fix the issue when she's doing this.

If she won't stop, then I'd personally approach the issue by instigating a working time cue, and teach him that when he hears the cue, the only way to get high value rewards is through working with you. Same as we do with a high prey drive dog. When dog hears the cue to work, she learns that a high value reward is available, but ONLY through obeying her owner.

ETA: if this were my dog, I would also correct her for it. It is not acceptable for her to beg off strangers - it's bad manners, & unsafe - goodness knows what they might decide to feed her! But I don't think it's fair for you to correct your dog for begging if he's allowed or even encouraged to beg when your mum is around. Perhaps you need to correct your mum instead.

Edited August 31, 2010 by Staranais

[TerraNik]

I agree with the Staranais - there needs to be consistency.

You can also recruit some 'strangers' or even people he knows to help teach him that food carried by others is never something that he's going to get no matter what he does. I'm sure that Shell, Woofen, Agentvee and I are all happy to help out with this. But basically have other people carrying food in their hands or even offering it to him. If he goes for it, the hand closes and goes away and he gets nothing. Obviously this also needs to be paired with him being successful with you. Just an idea of something you might like to try.

[corvus]

As long as he's being intermittently rewarded for it he's likely to continue. He's essentially on a variable reward schedule, and we all know how attractive that is (pokies, anyone?).

Kivi will fall into a heel with random strangers hoping for food as well, but is easily convinced to bet on us instead. He's not much of a gambler. He always goes for the surer bet. If my dogs are in food mode, they are just waiting for a signal that means they will get food. A bridge or conditioned reinforcer is perfect at this point. I haven't tested it for a while, but usually their recalls are actually best when someone else is handing them food, because I reward recalls with high value food.

You could use the clicker as an interruptor for this problem a la the Look At That game from Control Unleashed. The clicker interrupts the behaviour and causes the dog to look at you, and then you pop them a treat. Because the treat comes when they are looking at you, you are rewarding that behaviour rather than the preceding behaviour. Once you have their attention you can leave it at that, or start clicking and treating for a glance in the direction of the person with food. If you keep at it, the sight of someone with a treat pouch can become a signal to look at you. This might become a problem in some environments! Pays to think about what behaviour you might want him to be doing instead before starting. :D There are lots of LAT variations depending on what people want from their dogs.

You can still do set-ups, and it's only gonna help. However, if you can't control the environment so the behaviour is never being rewarded in the meantime, it could be an uphill battle, especially if you have a chronic gambler (Erik, I'm looking at you).

[lovemesideways]

Only thing I can recommend is get your clicker out. Any time Rover so much as looks at you, click and treat. Soon he realises looking at mum without being asked to means treat. Introduce people, click/treat when he looks in your direction. He should be coming back to YOU for treats, they catch on pretty quick with this game. Just last night Ruby was sitting in front of a fellow trainer/DOLer like a good little girl to score a treat. I started clicking her when she looked at me and then she wouldn't leave me. I sometimes palm Ruby off to others arming them with a handful of treats so she can work for them so she knows treats can come from others too, click C/T for looking at you and when he is calm about it should help with the mugging others for food.

At Rover falling into heel with strangers to score a treat. Smart fella :D

Oh and to How can I increase the value for me, to the point where other people and their potentially treat filled pockets are of no real interest. Is it possible? - he's a Lab, I don't think it is possible! But it is manageable ;)

Haha.. yes he is too smart for his own good . I've seen him sit in someone path to physically stop them walking, so they might give him a treat! He is very inventive...

I'll have a think about the C/T, I have done clicker training with him, so he certainly knows what it means. Problem I would have is I have to call him away from people, so if I call him, then click. I'm only rewarding him really for that recall, not for making the choice of looking at me.... I'll have to watch him like a hawk and start C/T for any attention paid to me. Hmmmm...

Do you find that treats coming from others are consider higher value to Ruby? Or is it super special when they come from you.

I have considered putting Rover on the same thing. Problem is mum won't do the same thing when she takes him out, she lets him go to strangers and thinks "its cute".

You'll find it hard to fix the issue when she's doing this.

If she won't stop, then I'd personally approach the issue by instigating a working time cue, and teach him that when he hears the cue, the only way to get high value rewards is through working with you. Same as we do with a high prey drive dog. When dog hears the cue to work, she learns that a high value reward is available, but ONLY through obeying her owner.

ETA: if this were my dog, I would also correct her for it. It is not acceptable for her to beg off strangers - it's bad manners, & unsafe - goodness knows what they might decide to feed her! But I don't think it's fair for you to correct your dog for begging if he's allowed or even encouraged to beg when your mum is around. Perhaps you need to correct your mum instead.

I agree its just bad manners, it really annoys me. Its also so unsafe you're right! God know what people feed their dogs, or what they've been handling.

What sort of correction would you consider in that situation? A leash correction on his usual flat collar really does not even make him blink (through mum jerking it around a bit to much). Plus he is usually off leash in these situations. Plus I agree in that I don't think its really fair to tell him off for doing something when he doesn't know what he's supposed to be doing. Mum likes to say he can speak more than one language. I think thats kinda bullshit and he should have one set of rules for everything.

How would you go about instigating a working time cue? Ideas would be much appreciated!

;) I wish I could correct mum! I've tried bringing it up for her and she is much more cooperative now then she used to be. I doubt that I'll be able to have her take Rover out when I'm not around, and not let people feed him though.

I agree with the Staranais - there needs to be consistency.

You can also recruit some 'strangers' or even people he knows to help teach him that food carried by others is never something that he's going to get no matter what he does. I'm sure that Shell, Woofen, Agentvee and I are all happy to help out with this. But basically have other people carrying food in their hands or even offering it to him. If he goes for it, the hand closes and goes away and he gets nothing. Obviously this also needs to be paired with him being successful with you. Just an idea of something you might like to try.

Would love for you guys to help me out with this. Will have to think about how to do it though. Any ideas?

I could incorporate that into the C/T training. C/T for whenever he turns away from one of you guys holding out food and he gets something super tasty from me. (though for Rover pretty much anything is super tasty, except microwave popcorn.)

I'm pretty sure you've seen how he throws himself at peoples feet when they have food. I don't take it personally, but that level of plain ignoring my existence for someone that may have food really does annoy me .

I can't imagine doing flyball or agility with him currently, since no matter how into the exercise he is, if someone was to walk past holding a piece of chicken he would be at their side in an instant.

Problem is hes so dam cute about it, I need to make him a bandana or something "I'm not actually starving, do not feed me!"

[aussielover]

So my dog Rover. Is a Labrador, and therefore he is obsessed with food.

The problem is, he's a basically a food whore, and will go up to anyone and everyone who has some form of food pouch/bum bag/ hand in pocket that may contain food. Then he sits, and begs for a treat. More often than not now he will not get food off people as I am watching him constantly and won't let him go towards them. The problem is he still wants to. Given the chance he's off and begging.

Doesn't matter that I have food, he has learned that he can get food off complete strangers, and hes going to try.

I'm looking at doing agility or maybe flyball with him. The problem is he will race off and throw himself at anyone with a treat bag or who might feed him. He has been on lead and lunged at a stranger with a treat bag to try and sit at their feet in the hopes of a treat. We will be walking and he will hop into heel next to some random person in the hopes of being fed.

The behavior has come about because my mum basically thinks its cute that he goes up to complete strangers for food. I hate it and really dislike the behaviour. My boy Riddick has been on a "Only treats come from me" policy from pretty much day one. Works great for him.

I have considered putting Rover on the same thing. Problem is mum won't do the same thing when she takes him out, she lets him go to strangers and thinks "its cute".

How can I increase the value for me, to the point where other people and their potentially treat filled pockets are of no real interest. Is it possible?

But he is cute! I have been the focus of his "please, please, I am starving" look and it is pretty cute. At least he is not jumping on people like some naughty black labrador puppies...

Mindy is too ditzy to realise that she can get treats off other people. She will beg if she sees other dogs are begging, but I try to overcome this by calling her away with a better treat. So perhaps try to carry really really yummy treats?

Does your mum actually let him receive treats off other people or just go up to them?

I have had a few dogs do this to me, it is a bit sad because they spend the whole time begging, not exercising at the park!

[W Sibs]

I am no help but I want to say that I love treating Rover.. he is so cute

I even have pig ears in my cupboard just for him (and Riddick)...

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

could you tell your mum that rover has developed an allergy and that you both need to make sure he only eats what you control and not to let him eat from strangers as it is bad for him.

a white lie that is good for rover

[Nekhbet]

correction for 1) ignoring you and 2) for begging. Food only comes on command from you. He'll soon learn. Off lead you can use an e-collar if he disobeys you and runs off for food.

Another point is to just tell your mother no, no walks if she behaves in this manner.

[lovemesideways]

correction for 1) ignoring you and 2) for begging. Food only comes on command from you. He'll soon learn. Off lead you can use an e-collar if he disobeys you and runs off for food.

Another point is to just tell your mother no, no walks if she behaves in this manner.

Poor mum, no walks for her!

When you say food only comes on command from me, what do you mean?

What are some ways you would say to increase my value above the food. I know you aren't one for using food rewards. How would you do it?

Also what are ways I could perhaps increase the impact of a correction on him? (if I was to correct later on)

Edited September 1, 2010 by lovemesideways

[bedazzledx2]

Don't you think this a little extreme?????? The dog has a history of random re-enforcement which cements in behaviour quite nicely. Now a good trainer can modify this behaviour with positive re-enforcement so that he learns that other people means the reward comes from his owner and later modify that again to certain (trained) circumstances. Correction without careful teaching will result in a confused dog and who could blame him?

correction for 1) ignoring you and 2) for begging. Food only comes on command from you. He'll soon learn. Off lead you can use an e-collar if he disobeys you and runs off for food.

Another point is to just tell your mother no, no walks if she behaves in this manner.

[Nekhbet]

What is extreme - if your dog pulls over to a person and starts begging for food and you correct it, then redirect it back to pay attention to you? No, not at all.

What are some ways you would say to increase my value above the food. I know you aren't one for using food rewards. How would you do it?

Thats a big assumption. I do use food rewards, as well as prey rewards and pack rewards. I just dont limit myself to ONLY that. Positive reinforcement is very important in dog training, I just choose to use the other options available to me as well. Correction unwanted behaviour adds to your value, limiting availability of resources to only come from you does this also exponentially.

Correction without careful teaching will result in a confused dog and who could blame him?

and a food obsessed dog with no boundries or consequences to its actions puts the owner in the place they are in now. Lovemesideways has done the NDTF course she should not be a total noob with corrections and reinforcement scedules.

Food on command - the dog can expect food when you say so. So attach a command to all eating activities with the dog. Attaching a command shows the dog it will only get food from a person when commanded to do so, expectations of receiving food goes down unless in conditioned circumstance and the begging starts to extinguish itself. Every time you offer some food 'eat' or whatever you want to use. Teach the dog the leave command also, so when you dont want it to touch/eat something - LEAVE. I do it by starting with food in my fist, offer it to the dog and they will snuffle and lick your hand, eventually they give in and lean back not touching your hand 'GOOD, LEAVE!' then wait a couple of seconds "EAT, GOOD DOG" give reward. So dog is learning 1) just because it is in front of its face does not mean its to be eaten immediately (eventually, if at all) and 2) it can have rewards but on command of the handler. You then progress this to food from other people, if the dog will not turn away or goes for the grab, correct.

As for the corrections - If the dog breaks and pulls over to a person, correct it. Thats just plain bad manners. Might be confused a few times but when is there not some confusion when we are trying to change behaviour? It's part of the learning process. The e-collar is for off lead when you have no physical or verbal control over the dog. Shoot off for food somewhere and get a light stim until you turn around and come back to me for fabulous rewards. Dont try and outcompete other food sources with more food unless you plan on simply carrying the best raw, fresh and stinking food around. Even then your dog will probably go for other people if it wants what they have instead of yours or you accidentally run out. The point is here the dog has learned bad behaviour. We need to show it that it is totally unacceptable and there is a required alternative we want every time.

Poor mum, no walks for her!

She can walk as long as she agrees not to let him beg at people. The point is here do you want consistancy from your dog or are you happy with things the way they are with your mothers contribution. Maybe show her some tricks using food and show her how cool it is that the dog ONLY pays attention to the person commanding feeding from the dog (like high 5's, beg, roll over etc)

[lovemesideways]

What is extreme - if your dog pulls over to a person and starts begging for food and you correct it, then redirect it back to pay attention to you? No, not at all.

What are some ways you would say to increase my value above the food. I know you aren't one for using food rewards. How would you do it?

Thats a big assumption. I do use food rewards, as well as prey rewards and pack rewards. I just dont limit myself to ONLY that. Positive reinforcement is very important in dog training, I just choose to use the other options available to me as well. Correction unwanted behaviour adds to your value, limiting availability of resources to only come from you does this also exponentially.

I meant you aren't one for Only using food rewards. You use a lot of other things and don't just focus on food. So what other ways would you go about rewarding a dog like this?

Correction without careful teaching will result in a confused dog and who could blame him?

and a food obsessed dog with no boundries or consequences to its actions puts the owner in the place they are in now. Lovemesideways has done the NDTF course she should not be a total noob with corrections and reinforcement scedules.

Food on command - the dog can expect food when you say so. So attach a command to all eating activities with the dog. Attaching a command shows the dog it will only get food from a person when commanded to do so, expectations of receiving food goes down unless in conditioned circumstance and the begging starts to extinguish itself. Every time you offer some food 'eat' or whatever you want to use. Teach the dog the leave command also, so when you dont want it to touch/eat something - LEAVE. I do it by starting with food in my fist, offer it to the dog and they will snuffle and lick your hand, eventually they give in and lean back not touching your hand 'GOOD, LEAVE!' then wait a couple of seconds "EAT, GOOD DOG" give reward. So dog is learning 1) just because it is in front of its face does not mean its to be eaten immediately (eventually, if at all) and 2) it can have rewards but on command of the handler. You then progress this to food from other people, if the dog will not turn away or goes for the grab, correct.

As for the corrections - If the dog breaks and pulls over to a person, correct it. Thats just plain bad manners. Might be confused a few times but when is there not some confusion when we are trying to change behaviour? It's part of the learning process. The e-collar is for off lead when you have no physical or verbal control over the dog. Shoot off for food somewhere and get a light stim until you turn around and come back to me for fabulous rewards. Dont try and outcompete other food sources with more food unless you plan on simply carrying the best raw, fresh and stinking food around. Even then your dog will probably go for other people if it wants what they have instead of yours or you accidentally run out. The point is here the dog has learned bad behaviour. We need to show it that it is totally unacceptable and there is a required alternative we want every time.

Yes I know about corrections, reinforcement schedules and training dogs. Really just because I ask a question about a situation doesn't mean I have no idea what to do. I'm just getting other peoples perspective on the matter. Rover is great dog (ask anyone who's met him), well trained, good manners. Its not like he is an out of control food obsessed dog who will ignore me. He will come back when recalled away from anyone or anything. Even if someone was to call him, if I then called, he would turn around to come back to me. Its just that he goes to get the food in the first place. I want to get rid of that behaviour of running to random strangers and sitting at their feet for a piece of food. Rather than just having to watch him like a hawk so I can call him back any time he tries it. Or that I can get him to focus on me when there is somewhere there with food, but its more of a he has to, rather than he really wants to. I would like to him want to pay attention to me more so than anyone else.

He knows the leave command. You can put a bone in his mouth and he won't even budge until give the word for eat it. What are way to get it to transfer over to other people though? If a random stranger was to offer him food, he'll take it straight away. Just like if they tell him to sit, he'll leave after a reward, when with me he knows that any command means you stay there until released. I'm guessing its just what Nik was saying, I need to set it up so that, if he tries to get food of strangers, doesn't work. if he ignores that food, he then gets loads of yummy treats of me!

Also if I'm training and using food rewards, and I'm not giving him a command to eat then, rather just tossing him rewards for different behaviours, will that make it more confusing for him?

Poor mum, no walks for her!

She can walk as long as she agrees not to let him beg at people. The point is here do you want consistancy from your dog or are you happy with things the way they are with your mothers contribution. Maybe show her some tricks using food and show her how cool it is that the dog ONLY pays attention to the person commanding feeding from the dog (like high 5's, beg, roll over etc)

He isn't solely my dog. Riddick is mine, and mums happy to listen to every rule I put out for Riddick. Rover is more hers though, I'm not in a place to say "don't do this with him". If I piss her off, she can turn around and say "I don't want you training rover anymore" and I would have to respect that.

She isn't a noob when it comes to training either, has owned and trained a lot of dogs over the years. Just her priority's are different than mine. It does not bother her that he goes to get food of people. As long as he comes when called, doesn't pull on lead and is generally very well mannered.

If I can get to a point where, when I'm around, he won't even go to other people for food because my value is just so much greater. Then it won't even matter if mum lets him get fed when I'm not there.

[aussielover]

Well if he is her dog, then realistically, you're probably not going to be able to do much without her co-operation, especially seeing as she doesn't really consider Rover's begging for food as a problem.

I do sympathise with you about it being annoying though.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Guilty of not reading the whole thread but I would base my answer on the "it depends on your goals and your dog" principle.

Some of the guys doing my Distance Program have had some stunning results using drive that have made taking rewards or even being distracted virtually eliminated in most situations and this is what I would use on a dog that was competing and needed all the drive it could get, over using a correction.

There are some great video's of Terraniks Ahsoka, Rivskys Zuma, GSD dog 2?s Indi and Super Ed doing some extraordinary work under big distraction...

On the other hand, if it was a dog that just needed some minor obedience, there isnt anything wrong with a correction or two either, just depends on the goals really....

[Paulp]

He knows the leave command. You can put a bone in his mouth and he won't even budge until give the word for eat it. What are way to get it to transfer over to other people though? If a random stranger was to offer him food, he'll take it straight away. Just like if they tell him to sit, he'll leave after a reward, when with me he knows that any command means you stay there until released. I'm guessing its just what Nik was saying, I need to set it up so that, if he tries to get food of strangers, doesn't work. if he ignores that food, he then gets loads of yummy treats of me!

I would co-opt some people he may not know to help you out by offering food in a controlled situation so you can command him to leave it (they musn't actually let him have it, I never let my dogs have something I have commanded them to leave, the treat for obeying is always a different type of food, the original offering goes away, if they are going to get the original offering I use "wait" instead). Teach it the same way you would have originally taught leave it, small steps making sure the treat for obeying is a higher value treat than that being offered by the stranger, this way your dog will learn to look to you if they think somebody else has something because you will have something better.

[Tapua]

Put mum on a behavioural contract ... just kidding

I think it is timing - my Labs are disturbingly attracted by food and dool when presented with it - great look when in the show ring a great big golly hanging off my baby whilst the judge is going over him.

My guys are very sensitive to voice correction and would turn away and return is I went UT!!! or something distinctive to distract them on their journey for food - as soon as they responded to the voice correction my voice would revert to praise and a food reward when they were close to me.