Larger Litters

[Remblak]

Hi all,

After reading the expected litter thread for Sept got me thinking about the following;

Apart from feeding mum the correct nutritional diet during gestation, what happens when you are faced with a very large litter?

How does mum cope with the huge demand?

Do you suppliment the puppies with extra feeds inbetween? If so, what would you recommend?

What kind of extra food would you recommend feeding to help ensure mum produces enough milk for her puppies?

Sorry lots of questions, our girl is due to whelp in a weeks time and have just confirmed expected number of puppies this morning by xray.

Assuming all goes well with her delievery, etc...we too will be faced with quite a substantial litter.

Look forward to reading your responses.

Cheers,

Melissa

[ellz]

Melissa, Koda had 9 in her maiden litter. She did an amazing job.

I was prepared to supplement if I needed to but it didn't turn out to be necessary. I had Animalac on hand. I prefer this to Divetelac because the milk solid content is higher and it tends to fill the puppies up for longer, enabling a longer time between feeds.

I just made sure that everybody was plugged in and feeding strongly whenever I could. Noted those who tended to get a bit pushed out of the way and plugged them in whenever I could see a spare nipple and stayed with them to make sure they got a good suck.

I weighed daily for the first 3 weeks and then weekly after that so I was able to stay on top of weight gain and act quickly if anybody looked like going backwards.

I just upped Koda's diet to compensate with more of everything, including heaps of naturally sourced calcium products. She soared through the whole thing very easily.

I did start to offer the puppies raw mince off my finger as soon as they started to show an interest in Koda's bowl, just before 3 weeks they were all turning into piranhas and looking for the meaty stuff and from then on, milk took a definite back seat with "real" food being the preference!

[Miranda]

I've had a litter of 12 and did not supplement, milk works on the principle of supply and demand, the more milk is required, the more milk is produced. As long as the bitch is well and coping and is fed plenty of nourishing food, supplementation shouldn't be necessary, although there are exceptions.

ETA I have a large breed.

Edited August 31, 2010 by Miranda

[Remblak]

Thanks Lisa!! We've confirmed 8 puppies on xray with a possibility of 2 hiding - hence "the stressing" is beginning LOL!

Yep, will be weighing them all daily for the first 3wks to ensure weight gain.

What specific foods were you feeding Koda to help with her calcium intake?

Much appreciated Miranda, just interested as with our previous litter from a different bitch whom had 7 and lost one baby, she did well and had no problems producing enough milk for her litter.

I'm just being overly cautious (this is just me) as with this maiden bitch, not having a history for producing a large litter and wanting to be as prepared as one can be

[ellz]

I already feed calcium rich foods such as eggs (with shell), chicken necks and frames and raw meaty bones, sardines and fish frames, cottage cheese, yoghurt etc so it was really just a matter of bumping up on the amount which had the effect of increasing calcium and bulk at the same time.

Funnily enough, when we had Koda xrayed, they couldn't get a clear count. They took 13 shots and three of us still couldn't count them. When she was sectioned, it quickly became apparent why that was the case because the uterine horns were like a USA highway system, all over and under and in and around each other. If you can get at least a reasonably clear count, then barring uterine inertia or traffic jams, I'd say you'll be ok.

[Remblak]

I already feed calcium rich foods such as eggs (with shell), chicken necks and frames and raw meaty bones, sardines and fish frames, cottage cheese, yoghurt etc so it was really just a matter of bumping up on the amount which had the effect of increasing calcium and bulk at the same time.

Funnily enough, when we had Koda xrayed, they couldn't get a clear count. They took 13 shots and three of us still couldn't count them. When she was sectioned, it quickly became apparent why that was the case because the uterine horns were like a USA highway system, all over and under and in and around each other. If you can get at least a reasonably clear count, then barring uterine inertia or traffic jams, I'd say you'll be ok.

Cool, thanks for that Lisa - I'll probably annoy you more over this next week...hope thats ok?

We've also been feeding much the same including a variety like yourself of egg, chicken necks, sardines...not tried yoghurt though and have never tried to feed chicken frames. Do you mince these??

We also feed a fair amount of beef with a combination of cooked chicken meat mixed through with vegies and pasta. My brother in law is a butcher by trade so luckily for us meat for our kids has been fairly easy to get and at a reasonable price.

It was the same deal for us this morning at the vets...you could clearly count 8 puppies but questioned a possible 1 with another in behind the shadows, we'll know soon enough though. Will be home as of tomorrow and have taken a 6wks long service leave Yay!!!

[ellz]

Cool, thanks for that Lisa - I'll probably annoy you more over this next week...hope thats ok?

Annoy away! I'll send you my phone number!!

We've also been feeding much the same including a variety like yourself of egg, chicken necks, sardines...not tried yoghurt though and have never tried to feed chicken frames. Do you mince these??

Nope....everything is fed "as is".

We also feed a fair amount of beef with a combination of cooked chicken meat mixed through with vegies and pasta. My brother in law is a butcher by trade so luckily for us meat for our kids has been fairly easy to get and at a reasonable price.

I never cook chicken for the dogs, rarely feed a lot of beef (other than on bones) but they get a lot of vegetables (usually raw but lots of table scraps as well) but I tend to give them rice rather than pasta.

It was the same deal for us this morning at the vets...you could clearly count 8 puppies but questioned a possible 1 with another in behind the shadows, we'll know soon enough though. Will be home as of tomorrow and have taken a 6wks long service leave Yay!!!

They only guesstimated the 6 in Koda. It took them literally all day to get 13 shots. They'd take one when they had time, look at it and then decide to do another. The first thing the vet said when I arrived was "you'd think with THAT much belly that it would have been easy to take a photo!"

What will be, will be. All you can do is be as well prepared as possible but ready for anything else that might be thrown at you!

I knew Koda was big, but no way did I expect 9. I kept shaking my head looking down at this pile of puppies, haemostats and towels in the centre of the table at the surgery and then when they were all dry I had to keep counting them to believe it was true! I'd NEVER had a litter that size in my entire dog breeding history!!!!

[Sandra777]

I've had two maiden bitches whelp big litters - one of 9 the other 10 (Staffords too). Didn't supplement any of the pups but fed the mothers huge amounts of food. Personally I wouldn't be feeding a lactating bitch much vegetable, IMO they need the room in their stomaches for food they can actually use - lots of meat and bone and I do artifically supplement calcium (Calcium Sandoz) due to once having a bitch with only a smaller litter crash with eclampsia, scary scary scary. She's a daughter of the bitch who had 10 first up and grand dam of the bitch who had 9 (she herself had 9 in her second litter but it was her 3rd and final litter of 5 which caused the problmes).

Sometimes people like to rotate the pups, some in a heated box some with mum, but I've always found this upsets my bitches - it all depends on the bitch I suppose.

[Remblak]

Cool, thanks for that Lisa - I'll probably annoy you more over this next week...hope thats ok?

Annoy away! I'll send you my phone number!!

We've also been feeding much the same including a variety like yourself of egg, chicken necks, sardines...not tried yoghurt though and have never tried to feed chicken frames. Do you mince these??

Nope....everything is fed "as is".

We also feed a fair amount of beef with a combination of cooked chicken meat mixed through with vegies and pasta. My brother in law is a butcher by trade so luckily for us meat for our kids has been fairly easy to get and at a reasonable price.

I never cook chicken for the dogs, rarely feed a lot of beef (other than on bones) but they get a lot of vegetables (usually raw but lots of table scraps as well) but I tend to give them rice rather than pasta.

It was the same deal for us this morning at the vets...you could clearly count 8 puppies but questioned a possible 1 with another in behind the shadows, we'll know soon enough though. Will be home as of tomorrow and have taken a 6wks long service leave Yay!!!

They only guesstimated the 6 in Koda. It took them literally all day to get 13 shots. They'd take one when they had time, look at it and then decide to do another. The first thing the vet said when I arrived was "you'd think with THAT much belly that it would have been easy to take a photo!"

What will be, will be. All you can do is be as well prepared as possible but ready for anything else that might be thrown at you!

I knew Koda was big, but no way did I expect 9. I kept shaking my head looking down at this pile of puppies, haemostats and towels in the centre of the table at the surgery and then when they were all dry I had to keep counting them to believe it was true! I'd NEVER had a litter that size in my entire dog breeding history!!!!

Thanks Lisa, very very much

Will keep you all informed on any progress!!

[Remblak]

I've had two maiden bitches whelp big litters - one of 9 the other 10 (Staffords too). Didn't supplement any of the pups but fed the mothers huge amounts of food. Personally I wouldn't be feeding a lactating bitch much vegetable, IMO they need the room in their stomaches for food they can actually use - lots of meat and bone and I do artifically supplement calcium (Calcium Sandoz) due to once having a bitch with only a smaller litter crash with eclampsia, scary scary scary. She's a daughter of the bitch who had 10 first up and grand dam of the bitch who had 9 (she herself had 9 in her second litter but it was her 3rd and final litter of 5 which caused the problmes).

Sometimes people like to rotate the pups, some in a heated box some with mum, but I've always found this upsets my bitches - it all depends on the bitch I suppose.

How much Calcium Sandoz did you give to the bitch per day?

And would you recommend giving a bitch CS regardless (once she has whelped) to help ensure eclampsia does develop?

[Sandra777]

How much Calcium Sandoz did you give to the bitch per day?

And would you recommend giving a bitch CS regardless (once she has whelped) to help ensure eclampsia does develop?

I have no hassles giving a 15kg bitch 5ml 4 times a day. Generally I give them that much for 3 to 4 days after whelping (until their milk has come in) then drop it back to 5ml twice a day until the pups are abour 10-14 days old, then up it again.

Recommend? Well no, every bitch is different and you have to do what you're comfortable with but for me it gives me peace of mind. I have never had a "nervy" "restless" mum since doing this, always contented and happy so if it's a co-incidence I'm happy with that

Edited August 31, 2010 by Sandra777

[Remblak]

How much Calcium Sandoz did you give to the bitch per day?

And would you recommend giving a bitch CS regardless (once she has whelped) to help ensure eclampsia does develop?

I have no hassles giving a 15kg bitch 5ml 4 times a day. Generally I give them that much for 3 to 4 days after whelping (until their milk has come in) then drop it back to 5ml twice a day until the pups are abour 10-14 days old, then up it again.

Recommend? Well no, every bitch is different and you have to do what you're comfortable with but for me it gives me peace of mind. I have never had a "nervy" "restless" mum since doing this, always contented and happy so if it's a co-incidence I'm happy with that

Thanks for your insight, much appreciated!

[Cockerlover]

My very first litter was 12!!!I made sure the bitch was never without kibble in between all the other things mentioned by op

I also feed ox heart (cooked )to my bitches in whelp & give calcium supplement after each baby is born & for a few days following delivery

[SoL]

Hey Mel, how's it going???

Zulu whelped litters of 8, 9 and 7 and her daughter whelped 7 and 9 pups, boy have you got your work cut out

The most important part I think is the water and calcium but we also use a high quality vitamin/mineral supplement, plus I make a porridge up using oats, water, natural yogurt, honey and raw egg and give that to the mum for brekkie everyday. With large litters we also start to offer scraped meat off the finger to the pups from around the 3 week mark and then begin weaning proper at around 4 weeks.

Don't be too scared though, but is this a maiden whelp or a problem mother? I remember Sunny was quite frightening her first litter, she just didn't want to know and I had to babysit her babysitting her pups, if I moved away so would she! Her second litter, however, was a lot less stressful, for which I was very thankful seeing I was also early pregnant myself I think what I'm trying to say (badly!) is not to stress too much.

If you need to bounce ideas, you have my email and my number and I can't wait to see piccies. Good luck

[zoiboy]

Hi, I am *living* the large litter just now. Womby whelped 14 huge healthy pups 4 weeks ago weighing between 530 grams and 670 grams. This was a natural delivery after a long week of my worrying about her as she was so uncomfortable.

I gave her melted icecream between whelps (as she wanted it) and I did suplement a couple of the pups with divetalac for 2 or 3 days. This annoyed the Bat so I took to just making sure that the couple I was concerned about got a fair shake at the milk bar. We did loose a fat healthy pup to being sat on by his mother on day 4 but aside from that it has all gone well. I have not split the litter at all as that annoyed her so what I have done is just sit and watch when I am not feeding her.

For the first week or so the Bat was drinking 10 liters of milk a day (that went up as did the bowl count when the pups found it) along with 18 eggs as much meat as was on offer, cat bikkies, dog bikkies and table scraps. The Bat's milk supply is up to the task it seems as all the pups are now at around the 3 to 4 kilo mark, eating meat and bikkies 3 times a day as well as milk. So far so good.

Next time Chris does an ultrasound for me I will make sure he looks at *both* horns

Cheers

Linda

[Remblak]

Hey Mel, how's it going???

Zulu whelped litters of 8, 9 and 7 and her daughter whelped 7 and 9 pups, boy have you got your work cut out

The most important part I think is the water and calcium but we also use a high quality vitamin/mineral supplement, plus I make a porridge up using oats, water, natural yogurt, honey and raw egg and give that to the mum for brekkie everyday. With large litters we also start to offer scraped meat off the finger to the pups from around the 3 week mark and then begin weaning proper at around 4 weeks.

Don't be too scared though, but is this a maiden whelp or a problem mother? I remember Sunny was quite frightening her first litter, she just didn't want to know and I had to babysit her babysitting her pups, if I moved away so would she! Her second litter, however, was a lot less stressful, for which I was very thankful seeing I was also early pregnant myself I think what I'm trying to say (badly!) is not to stress too much.

If you need to bounce ideas, you have my email and my number and I can't wait to see piccies. Good luck

Hi Em,

She's a maiden, I am sure she will be ok but its more a shock to the system for me.

Her mother popped her litter out with no problem, mind you her mothers temp did drop, nor did she do any nesting. However was the perfect mother.

So, I am now on long service leave and staying home to keep an eye on this lil puddin.

Molly's temps seem to be on average 37.8-38.1. Fortunately for me her breeder will also be coming down to assist with the delivery of these puppies so that makes me feel much better ;)

Will keep you posted and will definately put up some piccies when the arrive.

Cheers,

Mel

[Remblak]

Next time Chris does an ultrasound for me I will make sure he looks at *both* horns

Cheers

Linda

That made me laugh I was much the same when John did Molly's ultrasound, I kept saying are you sure??? As it is, he was right, but there may be another 1 or 2 hiding...we'll see.

Thanks everyone for your replies

[Baileys mum]

My Australian terrier bitch Brandy had 8 puppies with her maiden litter (which is a huge litter for an Aussie ).

She coped so well & was a fantastic Mother. All pups where so stong & healthy & all gained a good amount of weight each day. I did have Biolac on hand, but I found I did not have to supplement, as she seemed to have plenty of milk & the pups continued to gain weight.

Being a smaller breed with a large litter I was terrified that Brandy would get Eclampsia, so I feed her heaps of natural calcium around the clock. Lots of chicken wings, yoghurt & goats milk, raw eggs with the shell, sardines aswell as Advance puppy kibble & raw pet mince.

She got through it fine, but I did find that round about the 2.5 week stage some of the pups started taking an interest in their mums food (so I wasn't to sure if her milk supply was depleting a little or the pups where just nosy ) but I did decide to start supplementing them with a little solid food at about 3 weeks of age & they continued to put on good weights.

So to conclude it was alot of work & money to keep feeding Brandy around the clock but it was well worth it as she got through it fine, all pups remained alive strong & healthy & all left my home at a nice healthy weight.

Good luck with your litter, I'll be sending positive vibes your way that all will go well, & that your bitch whelps a nice big healthy litter.

[fbc]

Good luck Mel hope allgoes well and trouble free.

Cant wait for bubby pics shes such a pretty bitch Im sure the pups will be lovely

[Remblak]

Thanks everyone, will keep you updated :-)