Ethical Byb?

[Red_BC]

Hi all

I just have a question relating to BYB. I got my first puppy from a BYB (i know that was wrong now and am now pursuing down the path of registered breeders for my next dog) and although the breeder wasn't registered (some of her dogs did come from registered breeders though) can you have an ethical BYB.

This BYB knew so much about this particular breed, did not constantly breed her dogs (one litter every couple of years), fed them on a balanced premium diet, looked after her dogs, checked out homes before she sold someone a puppy and did many other things that registered breeders do.

So is this just a one off or are some BYB a lot better than others?

[ravenau1]

I think it really depends on what you consider a BYB. Some seem to consider a BYB to be someone that breeds without showing. Others consider a BYB to be someone who breeds without a prefix. I think there can be great and ethical breeders in both these scenarios. Working dogs for farms etc can often be bred under these circumstances.

If you consider a BYB to be some 'Joe Blow' who throws together a couple of dogs regardless of breed etc just to make some pups with the idea of making a few bucks, then I would say no.

Just my opinion

[D & D]

This BYB knew so much about this particular breed, did not constantly breed her dogs (one litter every couple of years), fed them on a balanced premium diet, looked after her dogs, checked out homes before she sold someone a puppy and did many other things that registered breeders do.

What health tests did she carry out on her dogs?

If she knew so much about them, surely there would have been some testing done?

What type of 'return policy' (for want of a better term) did she have?

What type of 'after you bring home your puppy' advice did she offer?

[Remarkabull]

I really struggle with this one. I do believe that there are people out there that have the knowledge and the right attitude to breeding dogs that are not registered breeders. Having a prefix doesn't make you ethical. Not having one doesn't make you unethical.

I personally would love to breed dogs (Dobes) one day, however I am not as interested in showing as I once was (for a number of reasons). I would never breed unless and until I could do all the relevent health testing, be able to offer help and assistance after the purchase of the pup and also be able to take the pup back if needed. I am not interested in it for making money, but because I am passionate about Dobes and and I think that in the right home they are the best family companions and can bring so much joy and happiness to our lives.

It will be many years before I would even consider doing this, however, and there is ALOT to learn and think about in the meantime.

[asal]

when did the mentality of "if you dont show your unethical" start up?

i know its getting pretty accepted now. met a lad who thought showing is mandatory if you want to become a member of dogs nsw.

so he had certainly got the message.

[poodlefan]

I do believe that there are people out there that have the knowledge and the right attitude to breeding dogs that are not registered breeders. Having a prefix doesn't make you ethical. Not having one doesn't make you unethical.

I agree. Provided you fully attend to the welfare of your dogs, health test breeding animals, whelp and raise litters properly and vet puppy homes carefully, then even a crossbreed breeder could be "ethical".

However the theory and the reality of BYBers seem to vary greatly. I've heard of a handful of poodle x breeders who might make the grade and the odd one or two others but that's it.

[Red_BC]

What health tests did she carry out on her dogs?

If she knew so much about them, surely there would have been some testing done?

What type of 'return policy' (for want of a better term) did she have?

What type of 'after you bring home your puppy' advice did she offer?

I'm not really here to talk about the particular breeder its more of just a general question. But I do know she had CL and CEA testing done.

As for advice she presented us on socialising the pup, feeding, crate training, grroming and many other things. Although some people would just dismiss her as a BYB i would have no hesistation on calling her for advice (which I have done in the past including once at at 1am in yhe morning). She is happy to help whenever she can.

But I dont want to turn this into a discussion on what I have done wrong it is more of a general can it happen type question

[Nekhbet]

I dont understand why someone would go to all that trouble and not be a registered breeder. Not being registered limits her access to registered dogs and bloodlines so in essence all she can really use is dogs she swindles from registered breeders (or buys from unethical ones as no ethical reg breeder would sell a dog to be used for unregistered breeding) or unregistered dogs of dubious background. Health testing goes back more then just doing the basic tests on your current breeding stock. To me, it's still not totally kosher. Ethics has more to do then just raising puppies well and health testing your immediate stock. She's still breeding for profit as she can not use her dogs for the betterment of the breed and gene pool as a whole.

[Sunnyflower]

I personally think that if a 'non registered' breeder was to follow the exact guidlines of what the 'registered' breeders did then no harm done! That is "MY" opinion and I am entilted to make my own. Unfortunately there is so much stigma around people who aren't registered breeders that everyone conforms to what the majority like!!

If I was to ever purchase a puppy from a non registered breeder I would want all the same health certificates supplied and shown to me the same as a 'good' registered breeder would show!

There are crappy registered breeders out there so just as likely as fantastic non registered breeders out there! They WILL be frowned upon though because they aren't registered.

[Staranais]

I think it really depends on what you consider a BYB. Some seem to consider a BYB to be someone that breeds without showing. Others consider a BYB to be someone who breeds without a prefix. I think there can be great and ethical breeders in both these scenarios. Working dogs for farms etc can often be bred under these circumstances.

I agree.

[poodlefan]

I dont understand why someone would go to all that trouble and not be a registered breeder. Not being registered limits her access to registered dogs and bloodlines so in essence all she can really use is dogs she swindles from registered breeders (or buys from unethical ones as no ethical reg breeder would sell a dog to be used for unregistered breeding) or unregistered dogs of dubious background. Health testing goes back more then just doing the basic tests on your current breeding stock. To me, it's still not totally kosher. Ethics has more to do then just raising puppies well and health testing your immediate stock. She's still breeding for profit as she can not use her dogs for the betterment of the breed and gene pool as a whole.

Not every breed out there is registered. Emerging breeds or types are the same.

Breeds like the Tenterfield Terrier were bred for generations without breed recognition. Ditto for the Murray River Curly, the Bull Arab etc. A breeder prefix is no guarantee of ethics either, sadly.

[Sunnyflower]

I dont understand why someone would go to all that trouble and not be a registered breeder. Not being registered limits her access to registered dogs and bloodlines so in essence all she can really use is dogs she swindles from registered breeders (or buys from unethical ones as no ethical reg breeder would sell a dog to be used for unregistered breeding) or unregistered dogs of dubious background. Health testing goes back more then just doing the basic tests on your current breeding stock. To me, it's still not totally kosher. Ethics has more to do then just raising puppies well and health testing your immediate stock. She's still breeding for profit as she can not use her dogs for the betterment of the breed and gene pool as a whole.

The only way an ethical breeder can guarantee their dogs to never be used for breeding outside of their own kennels or agreements with other registered breeders is to desex the pups prior to rehoming to 'pet homes'. I do know that some breeders put contracts in place but that still isn't fool proof.

Edited August 27, 2010 by Sunnyflower

[Nekhbet]

There isnt recognition but even these not ANKC breeds have worked to genetically test and recognise their stock, provide their own pedigree paperwork etc for their animals. Most members are also working towards a goal not just breeding whatever.

I know a breeder prefix is not a guarentee of ethics, I have proof of that lounging about my house right now. But if 'ethical' people want to be so called why not join and make their own behaviour an example? Why limit what lines and genetics you can use to provide the healthiest pups possible in the long term? Because it costs money and takes effort. Then what about those pups going on to be bred from. And their pups (if we get that far)

An ethical breeder is one that breeds under best practice for the health of not only the immediate stock, but ensuring quality pups and further progeny that have the ability to contribute to a healthy gene pool in AUstralia. Anyone who doesnt think that far is simply a BYBer. Remember ethics and personal beliefs are two different things.

[poodlefan]

An ethical breeder is one that breeds under best practice for the health of not only the immediate stock, but ensuring quality pups and further progeny that have the ability to contribute to a healthy gene pool in AUstralia. Anyone who doesnt think that far is simply a

I can't disagree with that.

[RallyValley]

There isnt recognition but even these not ANKC breeds have worked to genetically test and recognise their stock, provide their own pedigree paperwork etc for their animals. Most members are also working towards a goal not just breeding whatever.

I know a breeder prefix is not a guarentee of ethics, I have proof of that lounging about my house right now. But if 'ethical' people want to be so called why not join and make their own behaviour an example? Why limit what lines and genetics you can use to provide the healthiest pups possible in the long term? Because it costs money and takes effort. Then what about those pups going on to be bred from. And their pups (if we get that far)

An ethical breeder is one that breeds under best practice for the health of not only the immediate stock, but ensuring quality pups and further progeny that have the ability to contribute to a healthy gene pool in AUstralia. Anyone who doesnt think that far is simply a BYBer. Remember ethics and personal beliefs are two different things.

+1

[Red Fox]

Hi all

I just have a question relating to BYB. I got my first puppy from a BYB (i know that was wrong now and am now pursuing down the path of registered breeders for my next dog) and although the breeder wasn't registered (some of her dogs did come from registered breeders though) can you have an ethical BYB.

This BYB knew so much about this particular breed, did not constantly breed her dogs (one litter every couple of years), fed them on a balanced premium diet, looked after her dogs, checked out homes before she sold someone a puppy and did many other things that registered breeders do.

So is this just a one off or are some BYB a lot better than others?

Of course some BYB are going to be better than others, but if the "breeder" is already going to all that effort then why not just apply for a prefix and do it properly

[Steve]

Hi all

I just have a question relating to BYB. I got my first puppy from a BYB (i know that was wrong now and am now pursuing down the path of registered breeders for my next dog) and although the breeder wasn't registered (some of her dogs did come from registered breeders though) can you have an ethical BYB.

This BYB knew so much about this particular breed, did not constantly breed her dogs (one litter every couple of years), fed them on a balanced premium diet, looked after her dogs, checked out homes before she sold someone a puppy and did many other things that registered breeders do.

So is this just a one off or are some BYB a lot better than others?

Of course some BYB are going to be better than others, but if the "breeder" is already going to all that effort then why not just apply for a prefix and do it properly

Thats easy because they dont want to be a CC member.

Part of what I do as a registered breeder is to ensure that my pedigrees are registered to enable any one else - and me- to be able to enter health and temperament issues so that is able to be used in future generations. I could simply resign from Dogs NSW and continue to do exactly as I have been doing for 35 years without the need to register my puppies. Would I instantly become unethical overnight because I do that - I don't think so.

I can still sell them with a pedigree - just not a registered pedigree but that means it stops there. No other breeder can use what Ive bred to improve on what they have and I don't breed for anything as a priority other than that. Because Im not just considering this litter and these puppies Im considering what comes next - not just next litter but how what I do now may impact on the breed and therefore families who live with dogs for generations. I dont see someone who has a different goal to me as being automatically unethical but I think if we are interested in breeding great healthy dogs we need to do that with science and not just luck .Without the registered pedigree system then it will either sooner or later become just luck.

There is good and bad in every group and when we start to believe thats not possible we become the rednecks.

[Haley]

When it comes to a pedigree I dont think you will ever find a "ethical byb" Im sure there are a few byb that have very good intentions and try their best to breed a good type of dog for the breed, but there are many good reasons to why Australia and many other countries have clubs, groups with strict regualtions and guidelines when it comes to breeding.

I personally have not yet bred a litter for myself but I plan to in the near future. I am only half way through the process to having a registered litter, there is so much involved but at least you know you are doing everything you can to do the right thing ( but not all registered breeders do the right thing too! )

Good luck with your dog and hope with the next pup you will consider buying from a registered breeder.

[Red_BC]

I just wanted to make it clear that yes now I know buying from a non-registered breeder is not the right way to go. And yes I have started the process of getting my next dog from an ethical registered breeder.

I was not trying to advocate BYB just wanted opinions.

[WreckitWhippet]

What a shame, if this person knew so much about the breed and was ticking the right boxes, that they didn;t take that one step further and become a registered breeder.

Any good work that they may have done, is wasted and if they were managing to produce quality pup that conformed to the breed standard, they are worthless and have been lost to the breed gene pool.