Question For Breeders About Pet Stores.

[BoStoNmAdNeSs]

Look, theres a whole lot wrong with what you said there and you believing it. About to put dinner on and not going to go into the other 20 things wrong with what you said ...but christ almighty, what a crock of horse shit.

From what I can see, dobesrock has been polite and civilised in articulating her views and has not sought to demean and insult others. Others responding, regardless of whether they agree with her views would do well to emulate such conduct. It doesn't really matter how 'right' a person's convictions are if the message is distorted during the communication process or the person's inability to express himself/herself articulately makes others dismiss that person as an ill-mannered boor.

You're not Kevin Rudd are you..? Swallowed the thesarus? Thanks for your comments, will take them all on board as I stand here with pants around the ankles.

[koalathebear]

You're not Kevin Rudd are you..? Swallowed the thesarus?

You take that back!!! I'm willing to be told to piss off but there are limits ....

No thesaurus swallowing - just some yummy chocolate cupcakes.

Also, don't worry about the undies around the ankles - I now regret posting in any thread that isn't related to puppies and toilet-training. It's lucky my fur is non-flammable

Edited August 29, 2010 by koalathebear

[Remarkabull]

I may be a 'newbie' to this forum but I'm not a newbie as far as animals are concerned. Just because I am not a breeder does not make me clueless. I have worked in the pet industry and if you read my posts you will see that I said I DON'T agree with animals being sold in pet shops, HOWEVER seeing as it's not something that is going away atm I would prefer it to be done by businesses like the one I referred to. The owner is not a friend of mine, I only know her because it's a small town and I frequented the shop for pet supplies. We had many long discussions and based on what I saw and heard I think that she does what she can to make sure that the animals are going to a good home. I have no doubt that the reason she chose to sell animals was to increase her profits and attract more clients but that's the nature of having your own small business and as far as pet shops go this one is definately one of the better ones.

I can guarantee that she has refused to sell animals to some people. I have heard them whinging about it afterwards. Not to say that all the people that buy pets form there are going to be great owners but nobody can guarantee that, not even breeders. I know of a lady that purchased 4 dogs in less than 2 years (2 from registered breeders, different breeds, and 2 from rescue) and all 4 of these dogs are now dead. They got "too big" and they were "too hard to walk" or "they keep going to the toilet inside" and many more reasons why she dumped them at the local RSPCA and they were pts. Apparently she now has 2 new dogs and was refused another at the pet shop I mentioned.

Again, I'm not saying that I agree with it, but if it's going to happen anyway then better it be somewhere like that than like many others.

[labsrule]

Since when were you appointed the DOL Police to monitor and comment on other's posts just because you disagree with the way they communicated their opinion. For godsake this is a public forum and people have differing styles of communication so it's totally unrealistic to expect everyone to be "nice" and articulate themselves in the manner you expect. I really don't think we need a lesson in communication from you. Not being able to articulate their views to your liking does not make them ill-mannered boors

And since WHEN were you appointed the DOL Police to monitor and comment on MY posts..? Yes, its a public forum. Glad you see that.

I think some people need a reality check - this is a public forum where people from all walks of life with many differing views and communication styles will post. We don't need people lecturing us on how to communicate to a particular standard and to be labelled "ill-mannered boors" if that standard is not met by any poster. Pretty condescending methinks :D

Boring. You're doing the same thing.....go off look in the mirror for an hour or so and practice what you preach. :rofl:

Ermm Bull Terrific - labsrule was actually posting in response to koalathebear's posts, not yours. She was actually posting in your favour.

Well, that just makes me look like the tosser then doesnt it... Well, I could go back and delete and try and dig my way out of it or indeed I can let it stand and leave my dacks around my ankles for awhile longer. May as well...wont be the first time Sorry Labsrule...will read a bit more carefully in future ;)

Hey tosser, I think you should leave your dacks around your ankles for a little while longer ;) ;)

Apology accepted :D I'm off to have a look in the mirror

Tks Huski for clarifying who I was responding to

[poodlemum]

I may be a 'newbie' to this forum but I'm not a newbie as far as animals are concerned. Just because I am not a breeder does not make me clueless. I have worked in the pet industry and if you read my posts you will see that I said I DON'T agree with animals being sold in pet shops, HOWEVER seeing as it's not something that is going away atm I would prefer it to be done by businesses like the one I referred to. The owner is not a friend of mine, I only know her because it's a small town and I frequented the shop for pet supplies. We had many long discussions and based on what I saw and heard I think that she does what she can to make sure that the animals are going to a good home. I have no doubt that the reason she chose to sell animals was to increase her profits and attract more clients but that's the nature of having your own small business and as far as pet shops go this one is definately one of the better ones.

I can guarantee that she has refused to sell animals to some people. I have heard them whinging about it afterwards. Not to say that all the people that buy pets form there are going to be great owners but nobody can guarantee that, not even breeders. I know of a lady that purchased 4 dogs in less than 2 years (2 from registered breeders, different breeds, and 2 from rescue) and all 4 of these dogs are now dead. They got "too big" and they were "too hard to walk" or "they keep going to the toilet inside" and many more reasons why she dumped them at the local RSPCA and they were pts. Apparently she now has 2 new dogs and was refused another at the pet shop I mentioned.

Again, I'm not saying that I agree with it, but if it's going to happen anyway then better it be somewhere like that than like many others.

Then why are you supporting it here? My comment stands - you have been on this forum for just over a month - makes you a newbie in my book.

[Remarkabull]

Maybe I'm not writing it correctly but I DO NOT agree with animals being sold in pet shops. If it never happened again I would be thrilled.

However, it is not something that is going to stop happening just because we don't like it (not in the immediate future anyway) and what I am saying is that if animals are going to be sold in pet shops I would at least prefer the shops to be run like the one I knew of. Surely you can see my point. I'm not promoting, condoning it or saying it's great but is a lesser of two evils and in a lose, lose situation it is IMO PREFERABLE to many other pet shops.

[♪♫LMBC♫♪]

Maybe I'm not writing it correctly but I DO NOT agree with animals being sold in pet shops. If it never happened again I would be thrilled.

However, it is not something that is going to stop happening just because we don't like it (not in the immediate future anyway) and what I am saying is that if animals are going to be sold in pet shops I would at least prefer the shops to be run like the one I knew of. Surely you can see my point. I'm not promoting, condoning it or saying it's great but is a lesser of two evils and in a lose, lose situation it is IMO PREFERABLE to many other pet shops.

I do see your point, but if you are shopping there, even just for pet supplies, you are supporting a business that sells puppies, by giving them your money. Of course its not going to stop if people keep supporting these businesses.

If you don't condone it or support it, why shop there?

[snow_wolf]

The way i see it, no responsible breeder does it to make money. I dont even understand how one would make a profit. If by some miracle, you are coming out ahead, then you're probably not paying for something you should be.

[Remarkabull]

Maybe I'm not writing it correctly but I DO NOT agree with animals being sold in pet shops. If it never happened again I would be thrilled.

However, it is not something that is going to stop happening just because we don't like it (not in the immediate future anyway) and what I am saying is that if animals are going to be sold in pet shops I would at least prefer the shops to be run like the one I knew of. Surely you can see my point. I'm not promoting, condoning it or saying it's great but is a lesser of two evils and in a lose, lose situation it is IMO PREFERABLE to many other pet shops.

I do see your point, but if you are shopping there, even just for pet supplies, you are supporting a business that sells puppies, by giving them your money. Of course its not going to stop if people keep supporting these businesses.

If you don't condone it or support it, why shop there?

I don't shop there anymore. A bit hard considering that it's in NSW and I'm in VIC. I shopped there because when I first moved to the town they didn't sell puppies or kittens (only fish) and they ordered in the dog food I wanted. The only other pet shop in town (at that time) was a small, grotty little place that sold tons of puppies. During the years I was there a Pet Goods Direct store opened up and there was no way I was giving them my money and I think thats why she started to sell pups. PGD was taking alot of her business and people were going in there asking for pups so she got them. Not long before I moved a Petstock opened up and the small, grotty shop closed down (a good thing). I would assume, seeing as this shop is a family owned and run business and they have been there for 20 years that they made the decisions they did to keep their business going.

BTW I now purchase my dry dog food through a registered breeder and most of the other pet products come from online.

[jacqui835]

I have yet to see a pet shop selling puppies in a way that I approve of, and in fact the majority of the time I don't even want to get too close to the cages because they smell so bad and the puppies have often had to sleep in their own waste.

That said, reading Goofy's posts, I thought of a bit of a dream I had a while back about my ideal profession lol. I do not really want to breed animals, but that said, I love matching up the right pets with the right owners - I find the experience extremely rewarding. I have helped many friends to pick the breeds or even species for them, as not everyone spends hours of each day reading about the different breeds and what's involved like I do. I am in management consulting as well, so finding out about people and making them aware of products and services that can help them is just what does it for me.

Thing is, I just don't think the way animals are kept in pet shops (except for the mice and fish) is conducive to optimum development, what with the whole sleeping where they defecate etc. So instead, if I had a pet shop, I would focus first on finding breeders that I trusted (and I've learned first hand that just because they're registered and show doesn't mean they're any good) and then on providing a sort of, breed selection service as well as selecting the right puppy for the right people. Like identifying balanced puppies for the people who want an easier time of it, the more dominant ones for those who want to go a bit further with the training etc. And we could have photo and video directories of all the litters we had access to at any time - so no more impulse buying the one that just happens to be there on the day.

I don't know what sort of a market there would be for it, but, I think that having a service that dealt with all breeds instead of just one or two could be very beneficial to the beginner and even advanced dog owners. And then the breeders could focus more on their goals with the breed and produce more puppies that they could be assured would go to good homes. The puppy farmers would die because there just wouldn't be a market for them anymore. It's going to be a more intensive and probably expensive process, but in my area, everyone could afford it and I do think it would reduce the numbers of dogs abandoned, or perhaps even worse, basically just left in the backyards to rot. The number of like, ex beauty queen type mums I see with kelpies (the silver blue ones are popular right now) who bought them off the top breeders in the country but just look like they're constantly struggling with their dogs drives me crazy.

Anyway, just a thought, probably not one anyone else is going to think is any good lol.

[~Anne~]

Maybe I'm not writing it correctly but I DO NOT agree with animals being sold in pet shops. If it never happened again I would be thrilled.

However, it is not something that is going to stop happening just because we don't like it (not in the immediate future anyway) and what I am saying is that if animals are going to be sold in pet shops I would at least prefer the shops to be run like the one I knew of. Surely you can see my point. I'm not promoting, condoning it or saying it's great but is a lesser of two evils and in a lose, lose situation it is IMO PREFERABLE to many other pet shops.

To be honest, I think you sound like you have a balanced and well adjusted idea on the issue.

[Remarkabull]

Maybe I'm not writing it correctly but I DO NOT agree with animals being sold in pet shops. If it never happened again I would be thrilled.

However, it is not something that is going to stop happening just because we don't like it (not in the immediate future anyway) and what I am saying is that if animals are going to be sold in pet shops I would at least prefer the shops to be run like the one I knew of. Surely you can see my point. I'm not promoting, condoning it or saying it's great but is a lesser of two evils and in a lose, lose situation it is IMO PREFERABLE to many other pet shops.

To be honest, I think you sound like you have a balanced and well adjusted idea on the issue.

Thank you Anne. I was getting frustrated that I wasn't able to make my pov clear to everyone. I'm glad that you 'got' what I meant.

[Dame Aussie]

! Personally I completely disagree. I have sold literally thousands of pups over the years and in the vast majority of cases, it has worked

well you should be ashamed of yourself.

Anyone who says they have sold thousands of pups has no cedibility whatsoever.

Actually I am damn proud of that fact.

What kind of breeder doesn't give a crap about where their puppies go? A good breeder wants to vet homes themselves so they know where their pups are going

Some breeders are smart enough to know that there are a few pet shops out there that can actually do a good job of vetting potential customers.

goofy, how do you know that a purchase is successful? I'm quite sure that a customer is not going to return and tell you that they gave the dog away or dumped it at the pound. Sorry, but you are right - your replies have not changed MY mind one iota.

Nothing like keeping an open mind is there!

As far as knowing most of the sales have been successful, that's easy. The number of return customers and those that come in on recommendation. There are a few that we sell that are given away, I would be telling porkies if I said otherwise. However I believe the numbers are small.... and yes, people do come and say that they have just bought/been given a pup that came from us originally.

As far as dumping them at the pound, I am willing to have a large bet that very few of the pups we sold went that way. Yes, I agree it is a problem with many pet shops, but it was not a big issue with mine. Now how can I state that so categorically? The answer is easy. The local pound support people put up flyers in many of the local shops. The vast, vast majority of those pups listed are not the sort of pups I would have sold. eg. Staffie or X, Rotties or X, GSD or X, Malamute or X, Ridgeback or X, Bull Mastiff or X, Cattle or X, etc etc etc.

Now all this aside, no matter what is said, the accreditation program had the blessing and was run and overseen by Dogs NSW, the state governing body that represents breeders.

Ever think that maybe the pups you sold which were then dumped didnt make it to a flyer and were just PTS immediately as they were not socialised or brought up correctly......

[Dame Aussie]

I'd also like to add that as someone who has worked in a pound, 95% of the dogs surrendered are from pet shops. This is not an exaggeration.

If you have bought from a good breeder they will take the dog back, pet shops will not, so goofy I don't care what you have to tell yourself to sleep at night, but you're wrong.

And yes, I do believe that pups in a glass cage surrounded by strange people will develop issues, I know I would!

But hey, you were in business for 18 years so it's all good...good on you!

[Staranais]

I have never seen a pet shop selling puppies responsibly. I have never seen a petshop selling their "purebred" puppies with pedigrees. I have never seen a petshop give hip or elbow score data for the parents of their pups. I have never seen a petshop offer to take the puppy back for rehoming at any stage in its life if the owner can no longer keep it. I have never seen a petshop do a homecheck on a potential adopter, or ask for references, before rehoming a pup to them.

Of course, there are some registered breeders & some shelters that are also hellishly irresponsible. And it's not OK when that happens either. But, in my experience they are in the minority.

Some petshops are probably better than others, but I've never personally seen one that I'd call responsible.

[all that glitters]

No matter how much care and attention pet shop people give to the puppies they have, it doesn't change the fact that they are kept in small glass confinement areas at such an IMPORTANT stage of puppy development where they should be socializing and learning things etc... Puppies need fresh air, litter mates, new experiences and not confinement in little cabinets

[Red Fox]

In my case however, we did not recommend BB, we tried to help the customers ourselves, and if intensive training was needed, one of my staff is the agility trainer at a local dog school. She would go and visit the customer and charge all of $35 an hour. Talk about being greedy and ripping off customers.

An agility trainer?! For behavioural problems? Are you friggin insane?

So if your child had severe anxiety issues would you bring in the local basketball coach too? Same thing.

I wouldn't touch a breeder who sells pups to pet stores with a ten foot pole. What kind of breeder doesn't give a crap about where their puppies go? A good breeder wants to vet homes themselves so they know where their pups are going.

I agree. In the vast majority of cases a good breeder will have orders placed on the litter before they are even on the ground. They don't need a middle man (pet shop) to do that for them, just reputation and word of mouth. Actually, my dogs litter (like many others) was never even publically advertised, it simply wasn't necessary.

There is a similar problem with dogs. Fred has a GSDxRidgebackxMastif and goes and gets a RidgebackxStaffie and then breeds them and sells the pups for $100 each. This is way below the level of what is often called BYB. At least some of those are 'pleasant' crosses and are frequently chipped and vaccinated etc. Even some of the BYB do an OK job, but those irresponsible owners who don't have their dogs desexed or chipped and breed completely indiscriminately, and flog off the pups cheaply, are flying below the radar and are a very big problem. But does anyone try and do anything about it? Nope, because its to hard. Pet shops are a lot softer target.

So were all puppies sold by your shop desexed? Or sold with a desexing contract in place? And if not how can you be so sure that the new owners didn't go on to "breed completely indiscriminately, and flog off the pups cheaply"

What makes a badly bred Poodle or Maltese or Lab or Cav any more 'pleasant' than a GSD x Ridgeback x Mastif x Staffy? Or a Cav x Beagle bred with a poodle x spaniel (I know of someone who bred this exact combo from their 2 pet shop puppies not that long ago).

Microchipping and vaccinating a pup wont improve bad breeding. And I'll bet "Fred" is not trying to flog off his pups for $350-$500 each as "vet checked designer mixes".

[Linda K]

would not buy one from there, and do not buy any products myself from any shops where they do sell any pups or kittens, on principal. A good breeder would not be abandoning their hard work there, no matter what Goofy says, with no input into finding a good right home for them, and I also bet that he never heard about the issues. Also wondering about the repeat customers comment - were they repeat as they had taken care of te first one, and also the dogs he said that had been passed on to someone new from the previous owner who had bought it from the shop - sounds like those homing attempts went really well. Sorry, I am also another who thinks it is not right for puppies or kittens to be in the shops, end of story, no matter where they are from

Edited August 30, 2010 by Linda K