Question For Breeders About Pet Stores.

[Miranda]

I wouldn't touch a breeder who sells pups to pet stores with a ten foot pole. What kind of breeder doesn't give a crap about where their puppies go? A good breeder wants to vet homes themselves so they know where their pups are going.

I couldn't agree more huski. I would never, ever, under any circumstances sell my puppies to a pet shop, as far as I'm concerned any breeder who doesn't have the "time or inclination" to deal with the general public shouldn't be breeding at all. The thought of handing over a litter of puppies that I've put my heart and soul into planning and raising to a pet shop makes me feel ill. I won't even enter a pet shop that sells live animals, as far as I'm concerned pet shops should sell pet supplies and that's all.

And you are correct Goofy, after reading every one of your posts, nothing you have said has changed my opinion one iota.

[lovemesideways]

So basically, like I said. Puppies are products that you sell and have to make sure are "in stock"

You're proud that you've sold "literally thousands of pups over the years", god knows how many have been put down or are in pounds right now. Probably a high number of the vast majority.

Inspecting the premises was meant to point out the extreme, that is what a rescue will do, a good breeder will spend quite a while emailing and phoning you, to get the general gist of where you live. But again like I said, I guess that the credit card details are plenty :D if you have puppys "in stock" of course!

There has been one recorded incident where you where stupid enough to sell a puppy to a home where it could have been either scarred physically, or mentally scarred for the rest of it life. Ha Ha but is ok right? They got a refund, puppy got sold on. I hope you at least warned the new owners that the puppy was in that situation and may have issues from it.

Oh and I used Bark Busters as a example of a dodgy training company that I know a lot of really horrible pet stores (the awful kind that sell puppies) tend to use. I'm sure your "volunteer agility instructer" is really the person to help when you have a potentially fear aggressive puppy. Good to know you like to keep all the money in store and not recommend out! Don't wanna lose any of that $$ right?

The number of puppies you sell doesn't mean you're doing a good job. It just means its easy as hell for someone to walk in and buy a puppy. Why do you think people order puppies of the internet? Same deal. Its easy and its quick.

Doesn't mean they work. Just means that people don't know what they're doing when supporting BYBs and Puppy farmers (the kind pet stores buy puppys from, like yours )

So you do keep puppies stuck in windows all day. (unless taken out to show of the stock!)

I reckon a puppy can suffer from lack of stimulation, or could develop issues over people being behind a glass wall out of reach constantly.

Of course you didn't change my opinion on anything, because I actually care about my dogs.

They aren't "products" who are used only for their money value. They're mine and my responsibility for life. I see a litter and don't think $$$$!

[Goofy]

! Personally I completely disagree. I have sold literally thousands of pups over the years and in the vast majority of cases, it has worked

well you should be ashamed of yourself.

Anyone who says they have sold thousands of pups has no cedibility whatsoever.

Actually I am damn proud of that fact.

What kind of breeder doesn't give a crap about where their puppies go? A good breeder wants to vet homes themselves so they know where their pups are going

Some breeders are smart enough to know that there are a few pet shops out there that can actually do a good job of vetting potential customers.

goofy, how do you know that a purchase is successful? I'm quite sure that a customer is not going to return and tell you that they gave the dog away or dumped it at the pound. Sorry, but you are right - your replies have not changed MY mind one iota.

Nothing like keeping an open mind is there!

As far as knowing most of the sales have been successful, that's easy. The number of return customers and those that come in on recommendation. There are a few that we sell that are given away, I would be telling porkies if I said otherwise. However I believe the numbers are small.... and yes, people do come and say that they have just bought/been given a pup that came from us originally.

As far as dumping them at the pound, I am willing to have a large bet that very few of the pups we sold went that way. Yes, I agree it is a problem with many pet shops, but it was not a big issue with mine. Now how can I state that so categorically? The answer is easy. The local pound support people put up flyers in many of the local shops. The vast, vast majority of those pups listed are not the sort of pups I would have sold. eg. Staffie or X, Rotties or X, GSD or X, Malamute or X, Ridgeback or X, Bull Mastiff or X, Cattle or X, etc etc etc.

Now all this aside, no matter what is said, the accreditation program had the blessing and was run and overseen by Dogs NSW, the state governing body that represents breeders.

[casowner]

Now all this aside, no matter what is said, the accreditation program had the blessing and was run and overseen by Dogs NSW, the state governing body that represents breeders.[/b]

I think that it is important to note that the Governing Body has approved this and whether or not breeders sell to shops or not, if it was a major concern why would DogsNSW allow it, aren't they supposed to represent the best interests of the purebred dog community? If it is a huge issue I suggest members do something about it.

Lovemesideways you can walk into most shelters in SA and walk out with a shelter dog that day, most of these dogs are strays and have no history either. so it isn't any different. I understand that the eastern states rescuers do a fantastic job including home visits, fostering etc but until our main organisations realise the value of such people this will never change.

Edited August 28, 2010 by casowner

[Goofy]

Three further points I should introduce to the discussion.

Firstly, lets just look at this from a completely different perspective for a moment. Yes, there is no doubt that pet ownership is a huge responsibility and needs to be taken very seriously indeed. But buying a pup from some breeders looks like the exercise has a far more stringent criteria than the decision to have a human baby. For example, if you decide to have a baby, no one has to come out and check if the premises are acceptable. Oh..... and you can't take the baby back if you decide you don't like it either.

Some people are actually capable of making the right decisions themselves without being vetted to make sure they know what they are doing.

Now for the second point. I live in a rural area, and that's very different to a large city. One can't break wind here without it getting round town quickly. (Bad pun intended) So if my shop was one smidgeon as bad as some people would believe, I would not have stayed in business for 18 years.

Yes, it is different in capitol city pet shops where thousands walk past their window everyday, but I would have been lucky to have a couple of hundred a day walk past my shop.

On a very regular basis people stop me in the street and tell me how happy they are with their pups, or how well my staff has looked after them when they bought the pup.

Third point...... pet shops are a very easy target because they are normally highly visible. But there is another issue that is causing a huge number of problems that gets almost no coverage. Lets examine NSW as I am familiar with their laws.

In theory, according to the Companion Animal Act, all pups and kittens have to be registered by 8 weeks or when they change hands. This has been law since 1998. The Act was well intentioned but some sections of it have been a monumental failure. The responsible people comply with the act, but there are many people who are irresponsible and don't. How many times have you seen signs that say "kittens free to good home." Are those chipped as per the law? Not bloody likely, yet I have never heard of one prosecution where the rangers have gone and fined people for doing it.

There is a similar problem with dogs. Fred has a GSDxRidgebackxMastif and goes and gets a RidgebackxStaffie and then breeds them and sells the pups for $100 each. This is way below the level of what is often called BYB. At least some of those are 'pleasant' crosses and are frequently chipped and vaccinated etc. Even some of the BYB do an OK job, but those irresponsible owners who don't have their dogs desexed or chipped and breed completely indiscriminately, and flog off the pups cheaply, are flying below the radar and are a very big problem. But does anyone try and do anything about it? Nope, because its to hard. Pet shops are a lot softer target.

[poodlefan]

Goofy:

Some people are actually capable of making the right decisions themselves without being vetted to make sure they know what they are doing.

I'm sure those who work in DOCS organisations Australia wide would tell you another story.

And the 10's of thousands of pets dumped in pounds ever year are further proof that many people aren't that capable. Why would a caring breeder take any chance with a pup? Most petshops do very little to vet the homes they sell to other than checking credit card ratings.

Get real.

What you did in your pet shop and what happens in the majority of pet shops Australia wide are clearly different. The fact is that the overwhelming majority of pups in pet stores are sourced from commercial scale breeders. Pets Paradise is a case in point. How do I know? Because I asked.

Edited August 28, 2010 by poodlefan

[Rebanne]

If someone had a puppy that develops a genetic disease and costs them thousands, they know they can come to you for help with payment or at least advice?

Do you give health guarantees? Or just offer to take back the "broken" dog and replace it with one of your new fresh batch, just in stock!

We recorded every dog coming in and every dog going out. When ever there were problems we notified the breeder and they took appropriate action. If they didn't we didn't buy from them again.

Yes, we would offer as much help and advise as possible and we got our vet involved too. All our pups came with a guarantee.

so if there was a problem, you handballed it back to the 'breeder'? What was your guarantee?

[huski]

Some breeders are smart enough to know that there are a few pet shops out there that can actually do a good job of vetting potential customers.

No, some breeders care so little about the dogs they produce that they'd palm them off to a pet store without giving a crap where the puppies will end up.

Sorry Goofy but there is no doubt in my mind that ANY ethical breeder would EVER sell their precious puppies, that they pour their hearts and souls into breeding, to a pet store so they can be then sold to god knows where.

Good breeders want to know exactly where their puppies end up, they want to stay in touch with the puppy buyers, they want to provide a lifetime of support to the people who own the dogs they bred.

So Goofy - you only sell puppies that come from ethical registered breeders and some BYBers who all health test their breeding dogs for relevant things i.e. HD, ED, PRA etc?

[Goofy]

Clearly there is no point in my trying to carry this exchange any further.

Most contributors to this thread have fixed ideas about the subject, some intentionally even looking for the possible negative in everything I write, even if none really exist, and no matter what anyone says to the contrary, their minds are closed.

No point in trying to show another side of the coin and dispelling some of the myths and BS around this subject when people are arguing from a fixed, emotional viewpoint.

[aussielover]

How can you possibly argue that puppies are better off in a cage as opposed to at home with their mum and breeder in a loving family environment?

[koalathebear]

Clearly there is no point in my trying to carry this exchange any further.

Most contributors to this thread have fixed ideas about the subject, some intentionally even looking for the possible negative in everything I write, even if none really exist, and no matter what anyone says to the contrary, their minds are closed.

No point in trying to show another side of the coin and dispelling some of the myths and BS around this subject when people are arguing from a fixed, emotional viewpoint.

Hi Goofy - thank you for posting. Realistically, I do not think you should have expected to be able to change any opinions here - such is the way of diametrically opposed viewpoints. I'm not a petshop pet person myself but I always think that it's interesting and important to read as many points of view as possible - something my parents taught me and something my training has also taught me. It's not really a 'debate' unless you have more than one perspective advanced - it just becomes a sermon or a rant, so even where I don't agree with certain standpoints/actions, I do think it's important to have the opportunity to read the rationale for all the various positions. I worked for a number of years in China and very much resented the restrictions imposed on my ability to obtain information and differing views so upon returning to Australia, I have developed a greater appreciation for the ability to have a 'true' debate and to hear all opinions no matter how unpopular and diverse they may be

Edited August 28, 2010 by koalathebear

[Paganman]

when people are arguing from a fixed, emotional viewpoint.

Sounds like you see "emotional" as a negative but I reckon its a good thing.I like breeders to be emotional about their pups coz it shows they care and if they wont sell to pet shops then thats good to.Of course you being a pet shop owner you wouldnt have any emotional involvment with the pups coz when it comes right down to it your buying and selling pups to make a profit no point in mincing words. And the breeders selling you pups to put in your shop I wouldnt call those them reputable or ethical even if some of them are registered IMO theyre out to make money out of the pups just like you are.

Pups should be in the breeders home enjoying the family and the sunshine and green grass and fresh air not kept in a cramped little pen in a shop all day and then shoved out the back at night. I guess Im arguing from a fixed emotional viewpoint but Im proud of it.

[Rebanne]

How can you possibly argue that puppies are better off in a cage as opposed to at home with their mum and breeder in a loving family environment?

maybe because those puppies who 'breeders' sold to his pet shop weren't exactly in a loving family enviroment?

[huski]

Clearly there is no point in my trying to carry this exchange any further.

Most contributors to this thread have fixed ideas about the subject, some intentionally even looking for the possible negative in everything I write, even if none really exist, and no matter what anyone says to the contrary, their minds are closed.

No point in trying to show another side of the coin and dispelling some of the myths and BS around this subject when people are arguing from a fixed, emotional viewpoint.

Honestly Goofy you have to be pretty daft to think you could log onto a forum like DOL where the posters are vehemently against the sale of animals in pet stores and think yo can change our mind about it

I'd have more luck signing up to a hard core PETA forum and asking them all to eat a steak for lunch.

[♪♫LMBC♫♪]

But buying a pup from some breeders looks like the exercise has a far more stringent criteria than the decision to have a human baby. For example, if you decide to have a baby, no one has to come out and check if the premises are acceptable. Oh..... and you can't take the baby back if you decide you don't like it either.

You seriously think having a human baby is even remotely comparable to buying a dog?

[Goofy]

Honestly Goofy you have to be pretty daft to think you could log onto a forum like DOL where the posters are vehemently against the sale of animals in pet stores and think yo can change our mind about it

Why do you think I selected the name Goofy.

In all honesty, I had hoped that there would be more people here who were open to logical thought, rather than holding on to a preconceived dogma that may not necessarily be based on fact, but is undoubtedly based on emotion.

About seven years ago, I happened to meet a well respected, ethical breeder. How do I know this? Because a number of Goldie Breeders told me so. She had not had a litter for 12 months and 3 bitches produced 32 pups in 3 days, and of those 32 pup, 10 were sold for either show or breeding purposes, further reinforcing her credibility.

When I saw those pups, they were in large, divided shed. They were looked after by the breeder and a person that she had hired to assist because she had so many pups. She didn't have children at home. So, there were 30 ups being cared for by 2 people.

I don't expect many people to be able to grasp the point I would have liked to have made with this information.

This will be my last post on this subject (and probably any other) as trying to have a logical debate here with an an opposing viewpoint is pointless. So you guys just keep telling each other you everything about dogs there is to know, are always 100% right, and keep enjoy yourselves.

Cheers

[huski]

Goofy the point is that you are assuming anyone who doesn't agree with you is being illogical. You're doing the very thing you are accusing us of doing. What you consider logical is still your opinion. Nothing you could say would ever change my mind on the subject because I will NEVER agree that breeders who sell puppies to pet stores are ethical. Nothing in your posts has convinced me that is something an ethical breeder would do. That I think selling puppies in pet stores is wrong does not make me illogical.

I don't see any logic behind a breeder deciding to palm their puppies off to a pet store. A good breeder wants to know where their puppies are going, they can't do this if they sell them to a pet store, regardless of how well you tell us you vet potential homes. There is a DOL member here who had two large litters of a rare breed (never mind Goldens that are actually in quite a bit of demand) and had similarly large number of pups. Did she have to sell them off to a pet store to ensure they went to good homes? Nope.

Edited August 29, 2010 by huski

[poodlefan]

Goofy:

So you guys just keep telling each other you everything about dogs there is to know, are always 100% right, and keep enjoy yourselves.

Interesting sign off from someone who prides themselves on arguing "logically" and not emotively. No one else had to resort to cheap shots to make their point.

Why don't you tell us how the welfare of pups is assisted by being kept and sold through pet stores. At no stage in any of your arguments for the practice have you addressed the issue from the perspective of the DOGS.

We've heard about how convenient it is for breeders, how responsible most buyers are (with no factual support) but at no stage have you provided information on how the welfare of pups is affected by being confined in a small space, handled by anyone who wants to etc, all during a critical socialisation period and with incomplete immunity.

If you want to argue logic then you'd better start supporting those arguments with something other than how different your petshop was to most of the ones trading now.

By the way,how much unfiltered sunlight do you think pet shop pups get during their weeks in a store. You do know the link between Vitamin D deficiences and calcium malabsorbtion don't you?

For every happy story you can tell, most of us can tell more of impulse buys, misinformation fed to buyers, misidentified breeds in pups, poorly bred dogs, toilet training difficulties, behavioural issues etc. Few pet shop owners get to see what happens after all those pups go home. As many stories here can attest, even fewer would appear to give a damn.

Maybe you were different. But there are no pet shops like that in this city. When parvo is at its peak, the petshops here lose a litter a week that way.. of course they split the litters across several stores compounding the problem. That's not emotion talking there Goofy, that's the hard cold fact of how they do business here.

Edited August 29, 2010 by poodlefan

[Remarkabull]

This is definately a 'agree to disagree' subject.

Personally I don't like puppies/kittens in pet shops, however I know some people that own a pet shop and sell puppies/kittens there. This shop is in a coastal tourist town in NSW, the owners are very knowledgable about animals and animal products, and although I don't always agree with them about everything the animals are kept in large, clean cages. They are taken out of the cages a number of times every day and are excercised and played with. Customers are not allowed to pick up or pat the animals unless they express an interest in possibly purchasing them. The owner has refused to sell animals to people if she feels uncomfortable with them or suspects they cannot provide them with a caring home. She gets most of her animals from BYB, that she knows personally or knows someone that does. She will not buy just any pups off anybody. Alot of the kittens are from registered breeders. That I am aware of, she has had 2 pups that haven't been able to be sold and she kept 1 herself and gave me the other.

I am not advocating what she or Goofy does, however if all pet shops that sold live animals were run like these 2 then maybe there wouldn't be as many animals in need of rescue. There is always going to be pet shops that sell animals as long as there is a demand for them and I would rather that they were more like these kind than the PP kind.

[poodlefan]

dobesrock:

There is always going to be pet shops that sell animals as long as there is a demand for them and I would rather that they were more like these kind than the PP kind.

I'd rather that there be none at all. Fortunately, I think that's an increasingly common point of view and one that may see an end to the practice of pups for sale in petshop windows.