Question For Breeders About Pet Stores.

[Linda K]

I feel sick just reading that

[Rebanne]

never ever would I sell or give any pup I bred to a pet shop. I would give them to a reputable rescue if need be or PTS.

[Goofy]

For everyones information, the then RNSWCC ran an accreditation program for a number of years which allowed registered breeders to sell their pups to pet shops. The accreditation program was extremely difficult to get through and in reality, no pet shop in a commercial Westfields type centre had a hope of passing the stringent criteria. However, the shops that were large, well equipped and had staff that knew what they were doing, did qualify. From memory, there were about eight of them over the whole accreditation period.

There are quite a number of reasons why ethical breeders actually want to deal with respected pet shops. And, it will no doubt shock some people here to know that a number of highly respected breeders did sell to pet shops (and probably still do.)

As far as euthanasia of pups that don't sell is concerned, the comments made previously in this thread are 100%, pure, unadulterated rubbish and made without any factual foundation what so ever. But then many people don't let the facts get in the way of a good scare campaign or story.

How do I know all this? I owned the longest accredited Pet Shop in NSW, from the inception of the program right through to the end.

Given most forum members have very fixed views, I have now put on my flame retardant suit.

[poodlefan]

There are quite a number of reasons why ethical breeders actually want to deal with respected pet shops.

Could you list some please?

[Rebanne]

As far as euthanasia of pups that don't sell is concerned, the comments made previously in this thread are 100%, pure, unadulterated rubbish and made without any factual foundation what so ever. But then many people don't let the facts get in the way of a good scare campaign or story.

so what happened to the ones you couldn't sell, how long did you keep them for, where did they go at night, what stimulation was provided for them?

[poodlemum]

Is there any circumstance where you would sell your puppies to be sold on in a pet store?

Talking to mum and she thinks that there are ethical breeders who sell their puppies to pet stores to be sold, if the circumstance called for it. I'm guessing some sort of tragedy where they cannot look after the puppies.

I told her that I didn't think there was any way in hell a breeder that I would consider responsible would sell their puppy to a pet store. There is always a better option than sticking your puppies into a little box during those key socialisation periods. Where they toilet in their food area, get taken to god know what environment nightly and sold to someone who potentially has no idea what they're doing.

Feel free to list reason who you wouldn't or why you would do it.

Pet shops leave the animals in the shops! They dont get leave the shop until they are sold.

Isnt it against ANKC regs to sell to a pet shop? I know it used to be 15 yrs ago.

It is certainly expressly forbidden for Dogs Victoria members

ETA - Goofy, I also would like to know what happened to the unsold puppies, if they were not PTS

Edited August 27, 2010 by poodlemum

[Remarkabull]

Not sure about all pet shops but one i went to regularly (they ordered the food i wanted for me) had a puppy that was bigger and older than all the others (he was 6 weeks older than them). For 4 weeks I saw him stay there as all the other pups were sold around him. One day I asked why and was told that customers didn't like him because he was black (and silver, has markings like a Schnauzer), they wanted white fluffys, not black ones and they all though he was going to be too big based on how much bigger than the other pups he was (as I said, he was twice their age). Anyway, even though I was drawn to this pup right from the first moment I laid eyes on him there was no way I was going to buy a dog from a pet shop and I always swore i'd never have a fluffy dog. About a week later while OH was getting fish stuff the owner approached me and asked if I would take this pup as it was only going to get harder to sell him. He had started cowering in the back of the cage when people approached and was growling at the new puppies being put in with him. Wrong thing to do I know, but I just felt so sorry for this little guy so I said yes. Nearly 2 years later he is healthy and happy with us. He does however have separation anxiety and is still terrified of strange adults (particularly men), but likes children and is good with other dogs. So much for him being big though, he is just over 5kg and won't get any bigger and everyone thinks he's the cutest thing ever!

[lovemesideways]

Quite a few pet shops (around my area in Sydney anyway) ask for "puppysitting".

So any random person can come along and take the puppy home for a night.

Is that something designed to get you to fall in love with the puppy and buy it the next day???

Who could give a puppy back after a day?

Im sure thats the plan.

Also saves the pet store having to think of any plans for the puppies at night time.

For everyones information, the then RNSWCC ran an accreditation program for a number of years which allowed registered breeders to sell their pups to pet shops. The accreditation program was extremely difficult to get through and in reality, no pet shop in a commercial Westfields type centre had a hope of passing the stringent criteria. However, the shops that were large, well equipped and had staff that knew what they were doing, did qualify. From memory, there were about eight of them over the whole accreditation period.

There are quite a number of reasons why ethical breeders actually want to deal with respected pet shops. And, it will no doubt shock some people here to know that a number of highly respected breeders did sell to pet shops (and probably still do.)

As far as euthanasia of pups that don't sell is concerned, the comments made previously in this thread are 100%, pure, unadulterated rubbish and made without any factual foundation what so ever. But then many people don't let the facts get in the way of a good scare campaign or story.

How do I know all this? I owned the longest accredited Pet Shop in NSW, from the inception of the program right through to the end.

Given most forum members have very fixed views, I have now put on my flame retardant suit.

Im sure the member "fixed views" are due to the Fact that pet stores sell dogs from either BYB or worse, puppy farms.

I'm dying to know the know the reasons why ethical breeders would want to sell their puppies to pet stores?

[casowner]

Now remembering that we don't sell puppies and I am coming from a business perspective only, it makes absolutely no sense for any pet shop to pts a pup if it gets too big. Firstly the pup has been bought, vaccinations, microchip etc done, you have paid staff to feed/clean them etc. This all costs x amount of dollars and my staff are on say $20-25 per hour so the costs add up. You are paying high rents, have electricity costs etc etc. Most businesses would discount puppies as they grow but it makes no sense to pts and make a total loss. I make more actual profit from not selling puppies and I end up with long term, valued customers that I can service throughout the life of their pet regardless of where it came from.

Regarding killing pups and feeding them off I am not saying it isn't true but really who would get their hands that dirty and lose money when even feeding them crap food would be less costly.

Edited August 27, 2010 by casowner

[casowner]

Just wanted to add also that PIAA has asked the RSPCA for a list of known puppy farms so that they can inform their members who they are so that they can be avoided but the RSPCA declined due to Privacy reasons

[Goofy]

There are quite a number of reasons why ethical breeders actually want to deal with respected pet shops.

Could you list some please?

For reasons of confidentiality they don't want their names made public, especially given the possible hostile reception from other registered breeders.

Im sure the member "fixed views" are due to the Fact that pet stores sell dogs from either BYB or worse, puppy farms.

I'm dying to know the know the reasons why ethical breeders would want to sell their puppies to pet stores?

There are some breeders that do not wish to deal with the general public. Some do not have either the time or inclination. One I remember had a complete litter stolen and so he preferred to sell his pups to me rather than advertising. Also, some live in very remote locations and its easier for them to book them into my shop the day they are born and then they don't have the problem of selling them.

Now to answer some of the other questions and to make a few comments.

As to what happened when they start getting to big/old, the answer is simple. As soon as it looked like becoming a possible problem, we cut the hell out of the price. Better to get some money, even if its a loss making position, then get nothing at all.

Our pups were fed on Eukanuba, so its not like they were being fed cheap junk.

The pups did not stay in the window at night, we had huge pens out the back of the shop.

As far as stimulation is concerned, they were handled (and played with) by the staff, and also customers. They got lots of love and attention, and play time.

We also tried to match up the right dog to the right home and were mostly successful. Many times someone would come in and want to buy say a Jack Russell and it would have been totally the wrong dog for them, so we would invariably talk them out of it and into the right breed for their lifestyle and circumstances, even if we didn't have it in stock. We had a book of people waiting to buy various breeds and as most breeders booked their pups in when they were born, we knew what was coming our way. It was not worth our reputation to knowingly sell the wrong dog into a bad situation.

Also, because we were not in a shopping centre, most people came to us because they knew they wanted to buy a pup, rather than it being an impulse decision. Yes, there were some impulse buys, but they normally worked out for many reasons. Normally the buyers already had dogs and knew what they were getting into, or they had been thinking about buying one for ages and then saw what they had been thinking about.

We also spent about an hour with each buyer after they said yes going through what they needed to do and encouraged them to contact us if they had problems or concerns. And of course, the time spent after the decision to buy was made was in addition to what was normally an extensive period of discussion prior to the decision.

Finally, I point blank refused to buy from puppy farmers or bad breeders, registered or otherwise. I might add, there are some fantastic breeders who are now classified as BYB because they want nothing to do with Dogs NSW. There are also some terrific BYB that really know what they are doing. And like all areas of life were there are good and bad, there are some horrendously bad registered breeders out there that will put main registration papers to rubbish quality pups. That is not meant to be confrontational, just the facts of life.

Edited August 27, 2010 by Goofy

[MolassesLass]

Nope, never. And nor would I deal with any breeder who has/does.

I'd put an advertisement for my dogs in a pet shop window but that's it.

[lovemesideways]

There are quite a number of reasons why ethical breeders actually want to deal with respected pet shops.

Could you list some please?

For reasons of confidentiality they don't want their names made public, especially given the possible hostile reception from other registered breeders.

Im sure the member "fixed views" are due to the Fact that pet stores sell dogs from either BYB or worse, puppy farms.

I'm dying to know the know the reasons why ethical breeders would want to sell their puppies to pet stores?

There are some breeders that do not wish to deal with the general public. Some do not have either the time or inclination. One I remember had a complete litter stolen and so he preferred to sell his pups to me rather than advertising. Also, some live in very remote locations and its easier for them to book them into my shop the day they are born and then they don't have the problem of selling them.

Now to answer some of the other questions and to make a few comments.

As to what happened when they start getting to big/old, the answer is simple. As soon as it looked like becoming a possible problem, we cut the hell out of the price. Better to get some money, even if its a loss making position, then get nothing at all.

Our pups were fed on Eukanuba, so its not like they were being fed cheap junk.

The pups did not stay in the window at night, we had huge pens out the back of the shop.

As far as stimulation is concerned, they were handled (and played with) by the staff, and also customers. They got lots of love and attention, and play time.

We also tried to match up the right dog to the right home and were mostly successful. Many times someone would come in and want to buy say a Jack Russell and it would have been totally the wrong dog for them, so we would invariably talk them out of it and into the right breed for their lifestyle and circumstances, even if we didn't have it in stock. We had a book of people waiting to buy various breeds and as most breeders booked their pups in when they were born, we knew what was coming our way. It was not worth our reputation to knowingly sell the wrong dog into a bad situation.

Also, because we were not in a shopping centre, most people came to us because they knew they wanted to buy a pup, rather than it being an impulse decision. Yes, there were some impulse buys, but they normally worked out for many reasons. Normally the buyers already had dogs and knew what they were getting into, or they had been thinking about buying one for ages and then saw what they had been thinking about.

We also spent about an hour with each buyer after they said yes going through what they needed to do and encouraged them to contact us if they had problems or concerns. And of course, the time spent after the decision to buy was made was in addition to what was normally an extensive period of discussion prior to the decision.

Finally, I point blank refused to buy from puppy farmers or bad breeders, registered or otherwise. I might add, there are some fantastic breeders who are now classified as BYB because they want nothing to do with Dogs NSW. There are also some terrific BYB that really know what they are doing. And like all areas of life were there are good and bad, there are some horrendously bad registered breeders out there that will put main registration papers to rubbish quality pups. That is not meant to be confrontational, just the facts of life.

I still don't believe anyone who is breeding dogs to improve the breed is going to pawn them off to you because its "easy". That isn't someone I would consider a good breeder at all.

Even the fact that you say you don't have a puppy "in stock" leads me to believe you think of dogs a different way to I do.

There is no way someone walking into your store in the morning and walking out that evening with a puppy could have been put through all the necessary assessment for a new puppy owner. Do you inspect their premises or at least ask them where they live? Or is some credit card details good enough for you :D?

Do you make sure that their current dogs are going to be happy with a new puppy? If they already have dogs that they say are "mostly fine, though sometimes a bit snappy with puppies, but mostly fine!" I'm assuming you would refuse them a pup (for its own safety), untill you can further assess the situation. I guess that wouldn't be very lucrative though, so you would probably just laugh it off and say oh the puppy will be totally fine. After all, if their dog attacks your new puppy, who cares? Not like its the stores fault!

If they pick the shyest puppy in a little who is a bit scared sitting in the back (because its so cute and small!), do you inform them of all the training they should be doing? or do you have someone like "bark busters" who pays you to advertise for them? So that when problems crop up, you give them some business and they keep paying you to advertise.

So your puppies stay in big pens out the back over night huh. I'm assuming there is a person who stays with them or is at least on the property still, they have heated areas that are fully sheltered. They are walked and have stimulation individually daily and aren't just locked in tiny pens all day. The interaction between all puppies is supervised.

I'm also assuming that your puppies are not kept in the undersized glass boxes that I find so disgusting. They must be in large free pens with a store person watching them constantly, and they have a separate area specifically for toileting. Not allowing people to poke, prod and stare all day. Or is it better if they're in the window, to up the cute factor and make people more willing to buy buy buy!

If you had puppies in that where staying longer than you had originally planned, you would be sure to make sure they achieved all the necessary socialisation that is required for a puppy of that age, right? Or no do you just "cut the price!" to make sure you can still make some money at least. Because puppies are just another object you sell, like poo bags, or bags of food, right?

If someone had a puppy that develops a genetic disease and costs them thousands, they know they can come to you for help with payment or at least advice?

Do you give health guarantees? Or just offer to take back the "broken" dog and replace it with one of your new fresh batch, just in stock!

You say you refuse to buy from puppy farms or "bad breeders". So does that mean you have personally inspected every breeders facility before you will accept pups from them? Bit hard if they're soooo far out.

Genuine questions here btw.

[Goofy]

I still don't believe anyone who is breeding dogs to improve the breed is going to pawn them off to you because its "easy". That isn't someone I would consider a good breeder at all.

Even the fact that you say you don't have a puppy "in stock" leads me to believe you think of dogs a different way to I do.

You are entitled to believe whatever you want as we are all entitled to our opinions, nut that not does necessarily mean tose opinions are correct.

There is no way someone walking into your store in the morning and walking out that evening with a puppy could have been put through all the necessary assessment for a new puppy owner. Do you inspect their premises or at least ask them where they live? Or is some credit card details good enough for you :D?

Interesting! Personally I completely disagree. I have sold literally thousands of pups over the years and in the vast majority of cases, it has worked. This is evidenced by the number of pups that were sold on recommendation, by word of mouth and the number of return customers after almost two decades.

Secondly, I have bought a number of pure pups for myself over my lifetime and never once has a breeder inspected my place. I might add, some of those breeders are regarded as some of the very best in their class.

Do you make sure that their current dogs are going to be happy with a new puppy? If they already have dogs that they say are "mostly fine, though sometimes a bit snappy with puppies, but mostly fine!" I'm assuming you would refuse them a pup (for its own safety), untill you can further assess the situation. I guess that wouldn't be very lucrative though, so you would probably just laugh it off and say oh the puppy will be totally fine. After all, if their dog attacks your new puppy, who cares? Not like its the stores fault!

Yep, this is a real issue. In the thousands of pups I have sold, it has occurred exactly.... give me a second.... I need to add up the numbers.... exactly once. And we helped the customer try and work through it, and after a week when it became apparent the introduction plan did not work, we took the pup back and gave the customer a refund.

If they pick the shyest puppy in a little who is a bit scared sitting in the back (because its so cute and small!), do you inform them of all the training they should be doing? or do you have someone like "bark busters" who pays you to advertise for them? So that when problems crop up, you give them some business and they keep paying you to advertise.

We tell every customer about the training requirements, not just for the shy ones. Sounds like you have got something against Bark Busters, and whilst I don't encourage people to use them, they do have some happy customers. Lets face it, some training is better than none.

In my case however, we did not recommend BB, we tried to help the customers ourselves, and if intensive training was needed, one of my staff is the agility trainer at a local dog school. She would go and visit the customer and charge all of $35 an hour. Talk about being greedy and ripping off customers.

I still don't believe anyone who is breeding dogs to improve the breed is going to pawn them off to you because its "easy". That isn't someone I would consider a good breeder at all.

Even the fact that you say you don't have a puppy "in stock" leads me to believe you think of dogs a different way to I do.

You are entitled to believe whatever you want as we are all entitled to our opinions, nut that not does necessarily mean tose opinions are correct.

There is no way someone walking into your store in the morning and walking out that evening with a puppy could have been put through all the necessary assessment for a new puppy owner. Do you inspect their premises or at least ask them where they live? Or is some credit card details good enough for you ?

Interesting! Personally I completely disagree. I have sold literally thousands of pups over the years and in the vast majority of cases, it has worked. This is evidenced by the number of pups that were sold on recommendation, by word of mouth and the number of return customers after almost two decades.

Secondly, I have bought a number of pure pups for myself over my lifetime and never once has a breeder inspected my place. I might add, some of those breeders are regarded as some of the very best in their class.

... to be continued in the next post

[Goofy]

..... continued

Do you make sure that their current dogs are going to be happy with a new puppy? If they already have dogs that they say are "mostly fine, though sometimes a bit snappy with puppies, but mostly fine!" I'm assuming you would refuse them a pup (for its own safety), untill you can further assess the situation. I guess that wouldn't be very lucrative though, so you would probably just laugh it off and say oh the puppy will be totally fine. After all, if their dog attacks your new puppy, who cares? Not like its the stores fault!

Yep, this is a real issue. In the thousands of pups I have sold, it has occurred exactly.... give me a second.... I need to add up the numbers.... exactly once. And we helped the customer try and work through it, and after a week when it became apparent the introduction plan did not work, we took the pup back and gave the customer a refund.

If they pick the shyest puppy in a little who is a bit scared sitting in the back (because its so cute and small!), do you inform them of all the training they should be doing? or do you have someone like "bark busters" who pays you to advertise for them? So that when problems crop up, you give them some business and they keep paying you to advertise.

We tell every customer about the training requirements, not just for the shy ones. Sounds like you have got something against Bark Busters, and whilst I don't encourage people to use them, they do have some happy customers. Lets face it, some training is better than none.

In my case however, we did not recommend BB, we tried to help the customers ourselves, and if intensive training was needed, one of my staff is the agility trainer at a local dog school. She would go and visit the customer and charge all of $35 an hour. Talk about being greedy and ripping off customers.

I'm also assuming that your puppies are not kept in the undersized glass boxes that I find so disgusting. They must be in large free pens with a store person watching them constantly, and they have a separate area specifically for toileting. Not allowing people to poke, prod and stare all day. Or is it better if they're in the window, to up the cute factor and make people more willing to buy buy buy!

Yes, the windows are a reasonable size, they are not overcrowded, they are supervised, they can't be prodded, but I guess by the sound of it, you don't think the Dogs NSW specifications and conditions were adequate. Oh, by the way, are you seriously telling me that a pup will be suffer because some people look at it through glass?

If you had puppies in that where staying longer than you had originally planned, you would be sure to make sure they achieved all the necessary socialisation that is required for a puppy of that age, right? Or no do you just "cut the price!" to make sure you can still make some money at least. Because puppies are just another object you sell, like poo bags, or bags of food, right?

Note to self, now take a deep breath before you answer this one.

Yes, they were socialised. Yes I have to make money to stay in business, but the welfare of the pets in my care was always of paramount importance.

If someone had a puppy that develops a genetic disease and costs them thousands, they know they can come to you for help with payment or at least advice?

Do you give health guarantees? Or just offer to take back the "broken" dog and replace it with one of your new fresh batch, just in stock!

We recorded every dog coming in and every dog going out. When ever there were problems we notified the breeder and they took appropriate action. If they didn't we didn't buy from them again.

Yes, we would offer as much help and advise as possible and we got our vet involved too. All our pups came with a guarantee.

You say you refuse to buy from puppy farms or "bad breeders". So does that mean you have personally inspected every breeders facility before you will accept pups from them? Bit hard if they're soooo far out.

Genuine questions here btw.

In most cases, the answer is yes, I did inspect the premises. My problem was not selling pups, it was getting enough high quality pups. If I would have been prepared to deal with puppy farmers, that would not have been an issue, but as already stated, I refused to deal with them.

I believe I have now answered every one of your questions, even though the tone of some were sarcastic, but I am willing to bet that nothing I have stated has changed your opinions one iota.

Finally, I should comment on stores that let people take pups overnight. That is a complete recipe for disaster and something I would not engage in under any circumstances. There is no better way to introduce disease into the store, and even if that does not eventuate, you can bet the pup with be fed with all sorts of things it should not be eating and will have an upset stomach.

[Shmurps]

Some pet stores do buy on consignment from breeders. If they didn't sell they went back, then who knows :D

I did hear about a pet store who did get pups from a registered show dog person from time to time.

[aussielover]

Personally I would NEVER buy from a pet shop. I don't even buy supplies from ones that sell live animals.

I have to say though, that there are some that are way worse than others.

There is a new one in sydney that has glass cubes, it literally looks like an aquarium or something and the puppies are all separated into one cube each.

The cubes are tiny and the poor puppies don't even have each other for company :D

They were also selling purebred "labradors" which were clearly crossbreds. The funny thing was that the spoodles were even more expensive than the "purebreds". when i pointed this out, my friend who was with me said in a really loud voice "who the hell would pay 1500 for a mutt" and was asked to leave LOL.

[huski]

I wouldn't touch a breeder who sells pups to pet stores with a ten foot pole. What kind of breeder doesn't give a crap about where their puppies go? A good breeder wants to vet homes themselves so they know where their pups are going.

[Kirty]

goofy, how do you know that a purchase is successful? I'm quite sure that a customer is not going to return and tell you that they gave the dog away or dumped it at the pound. Sorry, but you are right - your replies have not changed MY mind one iota.

[Rusky]

! Personally I completely disagree. I have sold literally thousands of pups over the years and in the vast majority of cases, it has worked

well you should be ashamed of yourself. I don't give a rats what you say. I KNOW pupos are destroyed when past cuteness. I also help pick up the debris of unwanted spur of the moment purchases, unfortunately there are not enough of us to pick up them all.

Anyone who says they have sold thousands of pups has no cedibility whatsoever.

Back on topic.

It is against the law in WA for breeders to sell pups through petshops. I thought it was a national ANKC rule if anyone could enlighten me. I see a few people are describing themsleves as ethical breeders who are backyard brigade...maybe...maybe not. I have yet to find a backyard breeder who will take their unwanted pups back. Maybe the only backyard ethical breeders post here on dol. Ban the sale of pups in pet shops, get rid of those rotten puppy farms.

I wouldn't touch a breeder who sells pups to pet stores with a ten foot pole. What kind of breeder doesn't give a crap about where their puppies go? A good breeder wants to vet homes themselves so they know where their pups are going

:D Edited August 28, 2010 by Rusky